Feedback for AIKIA, Independent TKD

[TigerWoman]

Why does the TKD student have to wait until BB to understand the details in the forms?? Shouldn't they have been learning that all along? A 2nd degree has not mastered the basics of a tech? Ooook.....then when does that happen?? By the time a student reaches BB level, they should be quite capable of defending themselves in an attack!! They sholdn't have to wait 20 yrs. in order for that to happen. As for teaching...thats usually a requirement for BB. I started helping around Brown.

I did not say "a 2nd degree has not mastered the basics of a tech". We learn basics kicks, 30 of them, by black belt, but then there are all kinds of variations to those and new technique we have yet to learn. Yes, a TKD student learns details in forms but not nearly everything and I continued to say that a master would be able to answer any question because he has heard it all and investigated it all. You learn by teaching. I was teaching at red belt. It doesn't mean I knew very much except basics, and alot of kicks I could do, but not do well like jump spin heel to a 2 finger hold. And that's the same even for the twenty-somethings who were red belts. (our brown level)

A black belt knows the basics and can demonstrate them correctly, and can defend themselves. He/she is an assistant teacher like I said and it is also required so that they learn how to teach. There's a big difference though in mastery of all technique, be able to use it fully to the level of the art in a fighting situation, and be able to teach with complete understanding. I not just talking about self defense. There is also a mental part to it that is slowly attained. But I am repeating my past post.

In a clinch situation, I really don't see how a jumpback is going to work?? :idunno: An explaination would be helpful!

I didn't say clinch, I said close. We do a jumpback from close range, not with arms wrapped around, or grabbed. That's what I think clinch is, anyway. If my body is one foot away, it is easy to do a jumpback, crescent, twist, high round or self defense moves too, ie elbow, knife, knee to groin, chambered sidekick to break the knee etc. TW

 

[MJS]

I did not say "a 2nd degree has not mastered the basics of a tech". We learn basics kicks, 30 of them, by black belt, but then there are all kinds of variations to those and new technique we have yet to learn. Yes, a TKD student learns details in forms but not nearly everything and I continued to say that a master would be able to answer any question because he has heard it all and investigated it all. You learn by teaching. I was teaching at red belt. It doesn't mean I knew very much except basics, and alot of kicks I could do, but not do well like jump spin heel to a 2 finger hold. And that's the same even for the twenty-somethings who were red belts. (our brown level)

A black belt knows the basics and can demonstrate them correctly, and can defend themselves. He/she is an assistant teacher like I said and it is also required so that they learn how to teach. There's a big difference though in mastery of all technique, be able to use it fully to the level of the art in a fighting situation, and be able to teach with complete understanding. I not just talking about self defense. There is also a mental part to it that is slowly attained. But I am repeating my past post.

I guess the part in question is this:

A black belt in Taekwondo has learned the basics and then becomes an assistant instructor, learning how to teach. By the time he becomes a master, he knows details of forms, to be able to answer every question that could be thrown at him. He also has become a master of the technique and is also able to show that in any situation. Even a second degree is not that

Granted, the longer the student stays in the art, of course, the better they get. However, in the above quote, it appeared to me that even at BB level, there is still fuzzy areas, that should be able to be addressed. I'd have students come up and ask questions of me all the time, and 98% of the time, I could provide them with an answer. The times that I couldn't...I'd inquire with my inst. and get back to the student.

I didn't say clinch, I said close. We do a jumpback from close range, not with arms wrapped around, or grabbed. That's what I think clinch is, anyway. If my body is one foot away, it is easy to do a jumpback, crescent, twist, high round or self defense moves too, ie elbow, knife, knee to groin, chambered sidekick to break the knee etc. TW

Again, I think that there was miscommunication here. Actually, you did say clinch.

Taekwondo has this conception of only being able to fight at long range. That conception shows that the art is not really "known". We fight inside as well. I think jumpbacks, crescents and twists are inside? Plus the fakes, and spins we do to get inside. And punches, knifes, ridge, hammerfist, head, fingers, elbows, knees, sweeps, locks, in the clinch

In post #55, you did mention 'close'. Actually, the "clinch" range is where you'd be grabbing your opp., doing your standing grappling applications. In that range, getting off any kick other than a knee or stomp will be quite difficult.

Mike

 

[TigerWoman]

. And punches, knifes, ridge, hammerfist, head, fingers, elbows, knees, sweeps, locks, in the clinch, and yes we do some ground.

Um, I was continuing on with what in TKD we do, not all in the clinch but we do work in the clinch for self defense. You just can't take the word out of context and say I said something else with it.

How this got miscommunicated: earlier, I was answering about close range, "inside" where jumpback etc. is effective. I don't know how you got it mixed up with clinch. Maybe here:
Quote me:
We fight inside as well. I think jumpbacks, crescents and twists are inside?

Quote MJS:
In a clinch situation, I really don't see how a jumpback is going to work?? An explaination would be helpful!


Yeah, I inquire with my instructor too when as a teacher I can't answer someone's question. I also hear alot of questions for my instructor, a master, that I can't answer but he can. Imagine all the questions we all don't know to ask. I can imagine. As I learn, I have more questions. In fact, I probably ask the most in our mostly BB class at noon. But that doesn't mean I'm "fuzzy". TW

 

[MJS]

Um, I was continuing on with what in TKD we do, not all in the clinch but we do work in the clinch for self defense. You just can't take the word out of context and say I said something else with it.

How this got miscommunicated: earlier, I was answering about close range, "inside" where jumpback etc. is effective. I don't know how you got it mixed up with clinch. Maybe here:
Quote me:
We fight inside as well. I think jumpbacks, crescents and twists are inside?

Quote MJS:
In a clinch situation, I really don't see how a jumpback is going to work?? An explaination would be helpful!


Yeah, I inquire with my instructor too when as a teacher I can't answer someone's question. I also hear alot of questions for my instructor, a master, that I can't answer but he can. Imagine all the questions we all don't know to ask. I can imagine. As I learn, I have more questions. In fact, I probably ask the most in our mostly BB class at noon. But that doesn't mean I'm "fuzzy". TW

Well, it just goes to show how hard it is at times, to type what we're thinking, and make sure that the people reading it understand it. As I've said countless times before, we're all different! What works for one, may not work for another. As for the switching to other arts...I know many people who study mult. arts, are able to explain things clearly, and are still effective with everything they do. Its really no different than a college student having a double major, or a major and a minor.

In closing, I'd like to say one last thing. What does all of this have to do with the original thread???? :-offtopic

Mike

 

[Marginal]

In closing, I'd like to say one last thing. What does all of this have to do with the original thread???? :-offtopic

Mike

MMA trolls appeared.

 

[ghostdog2]

No, it wasn't the mma trolls. It happened like this:

1) Dr. Beasley posted a short, courteous request for input: what do you/we value in an organization.
2) Most responses were sincere and on point.
3) Some few, you know who you are, decided to be critical of Dr. Beasley because his group advocated supplementing traditional tkd with other MA's. A no-no to some.
4) A discussion of techniques in tkd and other ma's and their suitability in differing circumstances evolved naturally from there.
It all made for good reading and some useful insights, or so I thought 'til I realized I'd been trolled.

 

[5 hand swords]

Hello. My name is Jerry Beasley. I am founder of AIKIA. The "K" stands for Korean martial arts(Taekwondo,Tangsoodo,Hapkido), Karate, Kickboxing and Kenpo. I begain AIKIA as the American Independent Korean Karate Instructors Association in 1979. I would like to hear from any current or former members. Let me know what you liked or disliked. We are in the process of updating materials so I would appreciate any constructive comments. If you are not a member but you have heard of us let me know what you think.
We are here to serve. What do you look for in a national organization? Reputation,price,integrety.service?
(I read posts every two or three days,please be patient for a response).

Dr.Jerry Beasley, 9th Dan
Black Belt Magazine Hall of Fame
Instructor of the year 2000

Having read the five + pages the thread is now at I can only say I enjoyed the way your have handled yourself here, Welcome Jerry.

 

[Miles]

No, it wasn't the mma trolls. It happened like this:

.......It all made for good reading and some useful insights, or so I thought 'til I realized I'd been trolled.

It has been an interesting thread. I don't know about the MMA trolls-everyone is entitled to an opinion, one just has to determine what weight to give that opinion.

I checked out Jerry's organization through the link he provided. While I disagree with the idea of promoting someone to higher TKD rank for their exposure to other arts, I absolutely believe such exposure is healthy. It is like when I studied the French language in high school, I learned more about English.

Good luck with your training.

Miles

 

[jukado1]

I'm sorry to catch up with this thread so late, but I would like to comment on 2 points, First, If your happy doing whatever your doing, CONTINUE DOING IT. If your happy doing exactly what you are taught, doing forms, one steps, and traditional sparring, Enjoy yourself, BUT If you claim to be teaching any level of combat your deluding yourself. Second point, A black Belt is only of value within the organization that awards it, If I were to walk in to your TKD school I would doubt that they would recognize my black belt in jukado, But if you walk in to my school (if I had one) What would your belt be worth in my style, just like you don't let a lawyer do surgery or a doctor defend you in court. As far as awarding 9th and 10 degree black belts, anything above 6th or 7th is awarded not for what you can do in martial arts, BUT what you have done for the martial arts, Gentleman such as Bill Wallace, and Mr. Beasley had meany years of promoting the arts, they have helped bring meany people into the arts, and helped meany improve, they even if they were personally mediocre in karate, have done more then some great master who has spent 50 years teaching his 26 students in his tiny garage.

 

[Marginal]

No, it wasn't the mma trolls. It happened like this:

1) Dr. Beasley posted a short, courteous request for input: what do you/we value in an organization.

His initial post asked what people thought of AIKA. (It's right there iin the title.)

2) Most responses were sincere and on point.

Given what he asked, people disagreeing with his approach are on point as well.

3) Some few, you know who you are, decided to be critical of Dr. Beasley because his group advocated supplementing traditional tkd with other MA's. A no-no to some.

No, most that disagreed with his approach was due to promoting people in TKD for training in outside arts. Few people are against training in other arts, just the idea that learning Judo qualifies you for a rank advancement in TKD. Since you vehemently disagree with anything that seperates one from of traiing for another, I don't expect you to respect or understand this however.

4) A discussion of techniques in tkd and other ma's and their suitability in differing circumstances evolved naturally from there.
It all made for good reading and some useful insights, or so I thought 'til I realized I'd been trolled.

You're the one who trolls the TKD forum. You dislike the art, you dislike the training, you have nothing but contempt for the cummunity, and you only ever enter into discussions here to tell people how backwards their participation in MA is.

You only think you're doing people a favor.

 

[5 hand swords]

A. Yes I am from Michigan (Jackson to be exact) B. Can't stand Ted Nugent. I think he is an arrogant self-righteous SOB personally. Why do people think that everyone in Michigan worships or admires Ted Nugent?
Anyway, your description about the ranking process just proves my point. There is only one person in the world who can recommend me, and one person who receives my testing fee-my Instructor. He knows me, my technique, my mind, my life, and my credibility. He alone determines my eligibility to test.
Why do we pay high fees to test for Dan ranking? Several reasons. First, testing fees are income for your Instructor. Even if he has a full time job (which he does), that is still his money, because you are testing within his organization and using his name. It is his money to do as he sees fit.
Second, our organization Dan test is held in the gymnasium of our community college. Using this gym is not free and not cheap. Testing fees go to help pay for this, as well as mandatory insurance coverage. Why? Because Dan testing is a major accomplishment, something you should be proud of. Consequently, Dan testing is held in a location meant to convey high ceremony. The local dojang just wouldn't cut it.
Now, I could charge nothing or the bare minimum for Dan tests as Jerry suggests. Having no money to work with, Dan testing would consist of the testers and myself, since I would have no money to bring in reputable judges (I don't judge my own students for Dan level). The setting wold be our school, nothing different. Real exciting way to convey the pride of testing for Dan level. Don't know about you, but I'd rather pay the money and have Dan testing be something I could tell my grandkids about. I've brought students to these testings. They see for themselves the lights, the Masters' banners, the pomp and ceremony, and feel very proud to be a member of the organization.
Dan testing becomes something they feel rightly proud to be a part of.
And as for Bill Wallace, what does he contribute to martial arts that merits 10th Dan? My Instructor was the Korean national free fighting champion. After he retired from fighting, he returned to teaching and promoting traditional Tae Kwon Do. His Dan certification was recommended by Woon Kyu Uhm and presided over by a panel of Tae Kwon Do Grandmasters at the Kukkiwon. No jujitsu, no hapkido, no created-my-own-style-last-year. Tae Kwon Do Grandmasters. All known around the world.
His name is Grandmaster Tae Zee Park BTW.

Bet you hate Bob Seger Too.
Sure you from MI? .

 

[5 hand swords]

A.
Anyway, your description about the ranking process just proves my point. There is only one person in the world who can recommend me, and one person who receives my testing fee-my Instructor. He knows me, my technique, my mind, my life, and my credibility. He alone determines my eligibility to test.
.

Sound like you a happy slave boy.

 

[MichiganTKD]

First, I am no slave. Unlike some people, I did not earn black belt, break away from my Instructor, and teach on my own the first chance I got. This is what separates the traditionalists like me and others from guys like you. Guys like you feel no loyalty to your Instructor or anyone. Traditionalists are not slaves. Nobody forces me to practice and believe what I do. I trust and follow my Instructor like I trust and follow my parents. Why? Because they have earned my trust. Unlike some Instructors, mine did not break away from his Instructor the first chance he got, create his own half-baked style, and hand out questionable ranks.
If I told my Instructor tommorow that I was leaving, he would not try to stop me. He might want to know why, but he would say "it's your choice." But I wouldn't do that. You want to know why? Because the MA community is full of guys like you who think they can do much better on their own mixing and matching martial arts and seeing how much cash they can bring in. They end up creating their own self proclaimed style that they tell gullible followers is the ultimate, and that they are an "independent organization." And since they have no loyalty to their original Instructor, they end up learning from whatever half baked no talent comes along. So you have this mish mosh of TKD/judo/hapkido/wrestling/boxing/"reality street defense". Arts that, while fine alone, have nothing in common. Why in the world would I want to be a part of that?
I went on Jerry's website to find out a little about him. Aside from pure self promotion and superlatives about how great and wonderful he is, he is also the author of a book called "In Search of the Ultimate Martial Art."
Finally, AIKIA is simply another organization that tries to combine all styles into one handy group. These guys and groups are a dime a dozen, and they all seem to hang out together.

 

[5 hand swords]

First, I am no slave. Unlike some people, I did not earn black belt, break away from my Instructor, and teach on my own the first chance I got. This is what separates the traditionalists like me and others from guys like you. Guys like you feel no loyalty to your Instructor or anyone. Traditionalists are not slaves. Nobody forces me to practice and believe what I do. I trust and follow my Instructor like I trust and follow my parents. Why? Because they have earned my trust. Unlike some Instructors, mine did not break away from his Instructor the first chance he got, create his own half-baked style, and hand out questionable ranks.
If I told my Instructor tommorow that I was leaving, he would not try to stop me. He might want to know why, but he would say "it's your choice." But I wouldn't do that. You want to know why? Because the MA community is full of guys like you who think they can do much better on their own mixing and matching martial arts and seeing how much cash they can bring in. They end up creating their own self proclaimed style that they tell gullible followers is the ultimate, and that they are an "independent organization." And since they have no loyalty to their original Instructor, they end up learning from whatever half baked no talent comes along. So you have this mish mosh of TKD/judo/hapkido/wrestling/boxing/"reality street defense". Arts that, while fine alone, have nothing in common. Why in the world would I want to be a part of that?
I went on Jerry's website to find out a little about him. Aside from pure self promotion and superlatives about how great and wonderful he is, he is also the author of a book called "In Search of the Ultimate Martial Art."
Finally, AIKIA is simply another organization that tries to combine all styles into one handy group. These guys and groups are a dime a dozen, and they all seem to hang out together.

Just saying if only 1 person in world can give you validation....

 

[Adept]

First, I am no slave. Unlike some people, I did not earn black belt, break away from my Instructor, and teach on my own the first chance I got. This is what separates the traditionalists like me and others from guys like you. Guys like you feel no loyalty to your Instructor or anyone. Traditionalists are not slaves. Nobody forces me to practice and believe what I do. I trust and follow my Instructor like I trust and follow my parents. Why? Because they have earned my trust. Unlike some Instructors, mine did not break away from his Instructor the first chance he got, create his own half-baked style, and hand out questionable ranks.
If I told my Instructor tommorow that I was leaving, he would not try to stop me. He might want to know why, but he would say "it's your choice." But I wouldn't do that. You want to know why? Because the MA community is full of guys like you who think they can do much better on their own mixing and matching martial arts and seeing how much cash they can bring in. They end up creating their own self proclaimed style that they tell gullible followers is the ultimate, and that they are an "independent organization." And since they have no loyalty to their original Instructor, they end up learning from whatever half baked no talent comes along. So you have this mish mosh of TKD/judo/hapkido/wrestling/boxing/"reality street defense". Arts that, while fine alone, have nothing in common. Why in the world would I want to be a part of that?
I went on Jerry's website to find out a little about him. Aside from pure self promotion and superlatives about how great and wonderful he is, he is also the author of a book called "In Search of the Ultimate Martial Art."
Finally, AIKIA is simply another organization that tries to combine all styles into one handy group. These guys and groups are a dime a dozen, and they all seem to hang out together.

Well, thats a nice long, and a touch incoherent, post. But I am somewhat at a loss as to your actual point?

What are you trying to say?

MMA are trechnically inferior to traditional styles of any kind? Or just inferior to traditional TKD?

People who study and teach more than one style are unable to teach either effectively? Or just people who teach TKD and something else?

Is the philosophy of JKD or MMA (Take what works, leave the rest) inferior to that of traditional martial arts, or just inferior to traditional TKD?

What is it that has put a bee in your bonnet. And please, try to be clear so we can all understand your points.

 

[Marginal]

Just saying if only 1 person in world can give you validation....

"Orange from Bob Perry (RIP) 70's 1st color belts issue type."

Wonder what that means in this light...

 

[5 hand swords]

"Orange from Bob Perry (RIP) 70's 1st color belts issue type."

Wonder what that means in this light...

Means not active or training in M/A any more but just talking - see my past posts.
I learned in what in old school days EPK etc.
my Sensi's day was white brown black ok?
When I start - was like white orange, green, brown
later add yellow and purple, blue, etc
Belts change,
Katas change
M/A in America change
(1 movie and a Black Gia is the Bad Guy LOL)
The people back then kicked *** cause no one had a lawyer.
If you know who Robert (Bob) Perry was in History of American Kenpo a little help here?
I am legit and only claiming my orange belt so thats what it means in this light,
I took hard *** Training and some good skills etc to make it and am proud of my rank and lineage.
It has served me well in the real world.
P.S when I start in MA if you said TKD in USA people said HUH?

 

[Aikia]

Michigan,
Seems that some people, like you for example, get so taken in by the one and only way mentality that they loose sight of reality. As head of a TKD organization I hear horror stories all the time from instructors that are afraid to leave their "Masters". They complain that they will loose their rank. There are problems in TKD.
Flip through a big city phone book. Almost everyone is a 8-10th dan. Almost every Korean is a "Korean national champion". Now it seems in style to be a "Ph.D." as well. When you can buy rank and title from the various "traditional" associations there seems little need for skill. We need an alternative.
You can not buy a dan rank from AIKIA. They are not for sale. You have to earn them. I work primarily with instructors that have decided that there is more to martial arts that one style of TKD. That mentality of staying with one style for life is like driving one car for life. A pick up truck may be great for hauling lumber but it lacks the comfort for long distance travel. A sports car works great on the highway but is a lost cause on the back roads of Michigan.
Old style Chung do Kwan may be perfect for the dojang but try entering an Olympic TKD competition and see how out dated your art has become. Get in a scuffel with a college wrestler an see how fast you end up on the ground. If you get attacked by a knife fighter you had better have something other than those old timey knife defenses to save your backside. AIKIA TKD instructors have learned that to answer different self defense/competition questions they must learn from different instructors. No single art/instructor has all the answers.
Michigan you have got to get with it. The need for self defense and the way in which we must respond in self defense has changed. By your answers it appears you have not. By your standards you would ask us to fight a war with M1s. It worked for the heros in WW2. Let's not change a thing. Right?
I know a lot of people that prefer traditional stick/recurve bows for hunting. They have a great time. My brother is a state champion in single action handgun (45 colt) shooting. It is O.K. to like tradition. The old ways have merit. But don't complain about the modern hunter with a compound bow that shoots faster and more accurate. Or the 9mm enthusiast that can fire off 9 shots before you can pop the second cap.

Michigan you are a complainer. You sound like an old tart. In TKD history the physical skills have always varied from one instructor to another. Tradition is always wrong when it is used as an excuse for limiting the practitioner to incompetence. Tradition is always right when it serves as a social structure to bond groups in a positive way together.

AIKIA serves like minded individuals that choose to update their performance level in self defense and sport competition. To do so they must think out of the box that traditionalists seem stuck in. When they have learned from others and improved they become better TKD instructors.
You have personally attacked my reputation, my teachers and my organization. In so doing you have identified your self as master whiner. I see on other posts you try for attention by whining an complaining. There is room for both sides. Please by all means enjoy your participation in TKD. The rest of us will also.
Dr.Beasley

 

[Adept]

Michigan you are a complainer. You sound like an old tart.

Sigged.

 

[Adept]

Well, thats a nice long, and a touch incoherent, post. But I am somewhat at a loss as to your actual point?

What are you trying to say?

MMA are trechnically inferior to traditional styles of any kind? Or just inferior to traditional TKD?

People who study and teach more than one style are unable to teach either effectively? Or just people who teach TKD and something else?

Is the philosophy of JKD or MMA (Take what works, leave the rest) inferior to that of traditional martial arts, or just inferior to traditional TKD?

What is it that has put a bee in your bonnet. And please, try to be clear so we can all understand your points.

In response to this post, I recieved this message, by way of a negative reputation point:

Yeah! Why would "You a slave boy" piss MTKD off?

If anyone knows what on earth this person is trying to say, please let me know. If the person who sent this reads it, please elaborate. I enjoy a well-reasoned debate with points and counter-points supported by as much credible evidence as is possible. Anonymous gobbledegook sniping, however, is not my thing.