TKD Pioneer Cross-training and Does It Affect You

[terryl965]

Well I can only speak for me, my father tought martial arts in the military during World War two and Korea and he always covered ground techniques it was part of the regular training in the school. It was mare of killing your opponet than trying to get them in a arm bar. It was used as survival not for sport so most of the hits and takedowns was at the 24 vital spots of one body.

 

[YoungMan]

My instructor was also captain of the Korean Army TKD Team, and again he never incorporated throws, pins, holds, or takedowns in the sparring he showed us.

 

[exile]

My instructor was also captain of the Korean Army TKD Team, and again he never incorporated throws, pins, holds, or takedowns in the sparring he showed us.

That is exactly, precisely what would be expected, given the difference between military and civilian applications of TKD and related arts. SJON's book has an excellent discussion of exactly why those kinds of techs were purged from the military version of TKD, while others, such as neckbreaks (the push/pull motion of the lunge punch/chambered retraction is exactly what is involved in a standard neckbreak move), and other killing apps, were emphasized (and his newsletter discussion is well worth reading too). Anyone who's interested in a well-reasoned perspective on how the military uses of TKD informed the techniques employed there, and why military TKD and the apps appropriate for civilian use, based on the same hyungs, would be inevitably different, would do well to read Simon's early chapters in his new book.

 

[terryl965]

My instructor was also captain of the Korean Army TKD Team, and again he never incorporated throws, pins, holds, or takedowns in the sparring he showed us.

Yes you are right alot of the Korean Military took it away from the system when teaching civil human being. Why is that should they not teach the same techniques for there student to learn? I cannot speak for anybody except me, my father believed in showing actual application and not what the sport started to show in the late seventy and eighties, now look what we got alot of sport application that if you tried them on the street against a real stituation may get you killed. I relize that in a civil place most would frawn upon these motions.

 

[StuartA]

Interesting how several people seem to have been taught throws and sweeps in the '60's. Kind of makes you think it was actually part of TKD, right?

What do you mean was!! It still is!!
Patterns applications aside.. they are still very much part of TKD

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

My instructor was also captain of the Korean Army TKD Team, and again he never incorporated throws, pins, holds, or takedowns in the sparring he showed us.

Thats not surprising really.. the word "team" says exactly what they were focused on... the sport side, so like WTF Olympians, whether in the miltary or not, the goal of a TKD team, was to win competitions, hence they trained the techniques applicable to that I would think!!

Just a thought!

Stuart

 

[Miles]

There is throwing and falling techniques in Gen Chois early books (seperate chapters), up to the encys.

I have Gen Choi's 1975 (second edition) of Taekwon-Do. This book featured GM Chung, Kee Tae who demonstrated throwing and joint locking. He is a Korean-Canadian Hapkidoin whose book, "Hap Ki Do-The Complete Art of Self-Defense" used to be available through TKD Times. I picked up a copy while in Toronto 8yrs ago. Excellent information!

I think many of the older GMs cross-trained. GM Kim, Pyung Soo trained in hapkido under GM Ji, Han Jae after he had already attained 6th dan in TKD. GM Park, Hae Man and GM Ji, Han Jae were both at the Korean Blue House at the same time. The old Korean Yudo College (nka Yong In University) has many different martial arts and students have an opportunity to cross-train.

Not to get the thread too far adrift, but I have found that in cross-training, I get a new appreciation or insight into some of the techniques we practice.

 

[StuartA]

I have Gen Choi's 1975 (second edition) of Taekwon-Do. This book featured GM Chung, Kee Tae who demonstrated throwing and joint locking. He is a Korean-Canadian Hapkidoin whose book, "Hap Ki Do-The Complete Art of Self-Defense" used to be available through TKD Times. I picked up a copy while in Toronto 8yrs ago. Excellent information!

I noted the Hapkido influence in my book (it influenced other aspects also, particularly hosinsul practice), there are also references and pictures in the first (English edition) TKD book by Gen Choi, published in 1965 of thros, sweeps etc.

I think many of the older GMs cross-trained.

Possibly as many held belts in different arts due to the occupation as well (such as Judo) - all these were influences in TKDs inception... they were there at the beginning and are thus also now (and for the last 55+ years), are TKD techniques as well as Hapkido techniques (if you see my point).

Not to get the thread too far adrift, but I have found that in cross-training, I get a new appreciation or insight into some of the techniques we practice.

Again, I completely agree and its something I noted in an earlier post (either on this thread or another)

Good stuff,


regards,

Stuart

ps. For those that are interested, the 2nd dan syllabus at Rayners Lane TKD calls for the student to demonstrate TKDs throwing and falling techniques (Dunjigi Wa Torojigi - as listed in the books) at their next grading... very much alive, as I said.

 

[exile]

Folks, please keep posts in this thread directly relevant to the OP topic, which has to do with the value of cross-training grappling/throws techs in TKD. Any issues that go well beyond matters pertaining to the OP query should be raised in new threads. Thanks to all for your cooperation.

Bob Levine
Senior MT Moderator

 

[BrandonLucas]

I'm going to check with my instructor to find out what throws he knows...I'm not going to ask him to show me, but just to tell me if he would ever teach them in the future.

I may be mistaken about this, but I'm fairly certain that he knows several throws, but elects to not teach them. He was taught by an instructor who was taught by Gen. Choi, I believe. Again, I'm not 100% certain on that, either, so I'm going to do some research on that in class tonight and find out.

Either way, it would make sense to me that it was at least a very basic part of the cirriculum. Why would TKD only be a striking art? Even from a military aspect, it would make sense to learn how to at least put your opponent on the ground.

 

[StuartA]

After reading..

<<snip>.

MasL.. your post adds nothing to the thread.. feel free to start a new one, perhaps titled "MasL's childish Charactor Assasination Attempt at Stuart Anslow because he disagreed and proved MasL wrong on another forum".

Either way, your post will be responded to when I can be bothered as it contains lies, fallicies and inuendo, not to mention is very misleading, so needs to be addressed (sadly)!

Unsually, I do not feed the trolls.. but for now..

..<<tosses a troll biscuit>>


Stuart

 

[StuartA]

MasL, you certainly do get around don’t you, its almost like your following me after I disagreed with your posts over at MAP.. or perhaps it because they banned you.. either way I guess its a case of 'here we go again'.

Usually I try to ignore trolls, but seeing as your intent on some form of character assassination, saying & implying things I never did/said, then I feel it only right by me to respond in kind to this post!

I have had many debates with Mr Anslow on this subject (as have others) initially on the ITF forums

Slight correction - we were involved in the same debates, as were lots of others, I dont recall ever formerly debating anything with you on a 1 to 1 type basis (even on a forum thread), usually I just ignored your posts, because as I said above usually I dont like to feed the trolls.

where I was a leading contributor.

LOL - only in your dreams, though you posted some reasonable stuff occasionally, most of it was posting remarks about people or flame wars, and that isnt really contributing is it! Just like your initial post here doesn’t contribute anything to the thread at hand.

I don't really want to comment on the technical side of the argument.

Theres no argument going on here, just a discussion! If you don’t want to comment, then you should have started a new thread to cut and paste all your woes.

I think most criticism come not from what Mr Anslow attempts to teach but rather his marketing and his response to criticism.

Your criticism you mean.. most others are happy with its content - but then again, they have actually read it! Genuine criticism is fine, criticism due to a mass chip on their shoulder is a different matter, as in that case, everything is incorrect isn’t it!

For example, at the old ITF forums there were many debates on the historical component to Mr Anslow’s arguments. It has to be said that he seemed to come of second best in these debates.

I don’t recall getting involved in too many historical debates on the ITF-Forum, I didn’t do much in-depth research back then (regarding history) and don’t see myself as a TKD Historian anyway, so why would I get involved.. maybe the odd one or two if I knew anything about what was being discussed. LOL at your "coming off second best" jibe.. you really love your veiled digs dont you... bit sad really, more so as I don’t recall any arguments that one could win or come 2nd in.. they were simply discussions and one which I made my points.

At about this time Mr Anslow had produced his book.

Afraid not, the book was release in July 2006, ITF-Online was gone by then - get your facts straight.

Mr Anslow, you also produced what looked like an official statement. I don't know if this was ever included in his book.

Haven’t got a clue what your talking about.. 'Official statement' from who? Perhaps you should elaborate, and then I’ll be able to let you know if what you refer to is included in the book.

It looked like it may have been a foreword of types. I sincerely hope it was not. I have been reading martial arts literature for 35 years and I can honestly say it was one of the most offensive, ill thought out things I ever read. It seemed to be directed at those on the ITF forums who had been in debate with him and had stated they no longer considered pattern practice beneficial.

I think your still living in Mas Dreamland, as I still dont have a clue what your on about. Offensive, in the nature you imply is belittling a woman who spoke about herself being a victim of an attack and implying (as you did) that it was her fault.. the reason you were finally banned from MAP! Now that’s disgusting and offensive!

I have since asked Mr Anslow a couple of times to produce this statement

I don’t think so... you have never asked me to produce anything, even within your forum posts - though I have asked you a few times to produce things, but you never had! But, if I knew what you were talking about, then perhaps I would, as I've nothing to hide, everything about me and what I do is online and transparent for everyone to see.. the same cannot be said about you, even though you often state everyone already knows you already, I and most do not apart from your moniker ‘MasL’ and your reputation as a TKD forum troll, anything else is not forth coming is it! Whys that I wonder!

(I don't have a copy or I would) and he has refused.

Stop with the lies Mas! As I said above, I don’t know what you’re referring to and if you make it clear then I am happy to stand by anything I’ve written.

A good example is the post by "Youngman" above where he states his teacher was in the military and wasn't taught much of what Mr Anslow claims the military were taught. Mr Anslow offers the following explanation to rest his case:

Youngman is very capable of speaking for himself and doesn’t really require you to speak for him, though it’s usually your game to latch onto posts that are on the 'other side of the fence' in order to make your arguments seem stronger, gain allies (which you rarely do) or bring up old stuff to cause problems. If Youngman or anyone else that isn’t a troll wants to discuss it further, I am happy to...

It’s flawed for a whole host of reasons.

Don’t think so, the reasoning is very sound IMO, though I am happy to be corrected.. unlike yourself!

People such as myself who trained TKD back in the 1970s

Did you? Prove it to the good folks here! You often use your past TKD history to try and add weight to your arguments, but never offer any evidence to support it, despite being asked about it on numerous occasions by others, you still, to this day, have presented nothing that shows you even trained in TKD.. the only thing I know, from reading another thread that involved someone else you attacked is that you trained under the UKTA for a bit then quit at blue or red belt (And even then I don’t know how true or false that is do I), which relates to 2/3 years training maybe and if it was in the 70’s, then its mostly a ‘never question anything’ type of class, as that’s how they were back then. I have a video of UK TKD in the 70s, UKTA no less.. Perhaps you are in it.. send me a photo and I’ll check for you!

Such inconsistencies are where most people seem to take exception with the historical side of what Mr Anslow writes.

Some people!! Again, you mean you.. please speak in the right (first person) perspective.

His Korean friend however (whose name I don’t have at hand) states the exact opposite. He claims they did have it but didn’t pass it on. So which is it?

Read the book... it explains all!

Yet because the Korean gentleman (if this person is the same one who posted on the ITF forums as “Michael” and claimed to have OhDo Kwan linage

The person you refer to never posted on ITF-Online, so its not whoever this Michael is, so the rest of your paragraph is irrelevant.

Mr Anslow himself adds to this confusion and the language he uses to others who offer criticism or "rock the boat" is rather unsatisfactory to say he least.

Please feel free to offer proof of this claim, I am always respectful and polite when I write on forums (unlike yourself), even with those I may disagree with. Anything I say in fun is usually followed with a smiley to indicate this and show that its fun, not serious. And I never use bad language as you seem to imply.

On another forum I read Mr Anslow's oft repeated quote "Martial Arts are not about fighting they are about Truth" or something along those lines. (Not my cup of tea but whatever rocks your boat). So since I perceived Mr Anslow might be concerned with the truth I offer a polite criticism of his web page, which repeats a number of official ITF myths and general inaccuracies.

Which are?

I asked him if he was going to amend these. He simply replied he was not.

Don’t recall any of that.. but as I said, feel free to point them out and I’ll look them over if in fact they are incorrect and something I have written. PM me directly and we`ll go through them rather than clogging up this thread further.

And so the myth of Han Il Dong the legendary invisible man of Tae Kyon and Choi Hong Hi's first martial art teacher lives on. (LOL)

I don’t recall Han Il Dong being mentioned on the web site - please point it out. Furthermore, in my book I discuss the 'Taek Kwon' connection myth anyway..

At around the same time I offered a critique of a well-known article on TKD history that was/is often cited a reliable text. Mr Anslow accused me of “savaging” a respected author.

Now your referring to the MAP forum (you do like to chop and change don’t you, blurring things together to try to re-enforce your points, when they aren’t connected at all). To those reading this, MasL disputed facts of a known & respected TKD historian (Dakin Burdick I believe – who has had published works in the Journal of Asian martial Arts on TKD History), and I simply said if he was to do that then he should be forthcoming with his own involvement in TKD to add weight to his arguments rather than being an 'unknown'.. thats similar to someone mocking Muhammed Ali's boxing, under a name no one can verify, and unwilling to say/prove what their background, own history and grounding in boxing is, so their dismissiveness carrys much less weight than someone with credentials, like Ali or Burdick!

I did no such thing.

And neither did I.. if its allowed on this forum, feel free to link the discussion and let others decide for themselves instead of spreading you falsehoods!

Anyone was free to dispute any of the points I raised. No one did

Really.. a number of people did… and you simply ignored them, perhaps you should re-read the thread yourself!

Mr Anslow never offered an apology by the way.

Because I had nothing to apologies for… it was a public forum and I don’t see why I should apologise for asking for your credentials if you are going to tear into another person!!

Mr Anslow, I think it would help your cause greatly if you stopped trying to tie what you are doing with a mythical golden age of Korean TKD military killing machines.

I refer to no ‘golden age’ simply that TKD was used in Vietnam, of which I offered evidence.. (both in the book & posted on the thread you refer to).. Funnily enough, the evidence I posted showed your unsubstantiated claims to be incorrect!

Anyway, your post has added nothing to this thread..
If you want to present things in an adult like manner, then do so, otherwise I suggest you go troll else ware and leave those that want to, to discuss the OP of this thread as we were doing until you turned up!

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

Folks, please keep posts in this thread directly relevant to the OP topic, which has to do with the value of cross-training grappling/throws techs in TKD. Any issues that go well beyond matters pertaining to the OP query should be raised in new threads. Thanks to all for your cooperation.

Bob Levine
Senior MT Moderator

My apologies.. but I could not let a personnal attack such as that go unanswered and I doubt anyone else could either.

Hopefully masL will take my advice and start his own thread if he has 'issues' to bear and not interupt the flow of the current ones with more of his nonsense.

Stuart

 

[Sukerkin]

Stuart, that's why we have the RTM button freely available all over the place. You are not expected to have to sit still for harassing behaviour directed at you but you are expected to not shoot back, thus escalating the situation. Part of what we (the moderators) are for is dealing with precisely this sort of problem .

Personal attacks are one of the things that are directly against the rules that everyone agrees to when they sign up here. Breaking such rules sets in motion a chain of events that is not often seen out in the front-of-house but that doesn't mean that nothing is happening. A members movement along the path that leads to being ejected out into the 'street' can be swift or slow depending on their behaviour.

Like death and taxes, loss of membership is one of the certainties for trolls who do not learn. I would strongly direct everyones attention to the Moderator Warning posted earlier - ignoring these warnings is a sure-fire trigger for earning 'attention' from the staff.

 

[BrandonLucas]

So, back to the OP.......

 

[Sukerkin]

MasL, you do not have to respond to anything that is posted here that offends you. As I said, that is what the RTM facility is for. If you feel the need, then please use it.

Threads that become home to disruptive behaviour are dealt with in an appropriate manner to curtail the problem. MT has highly stringent moderating standards that are adhered to as firmly and as quickly as is humanly possible. Take some time to read the rules before hammering away at the keyboard for not doing so is a guarantee of falling foul of them.

If any user cannot in all conscience abide by what they signed up to, then they are free to ask for their membership to be revoked - unlike most contracts there is no penalty for opting out early; after all, it makes our lives easier if those who cannot live within the regulations realise it and voluntarily go to climes more agreeable to their natures.

 

[BrandonLucas]

So, anyway....anyone else agree that from a military aspect, it would make sense to learn how to at least put your opponent on the ground, in regards to TKD?

 

[exile]

Let me echo and reinforce what Sukerkin says. If a thread has gone off-topic, that does not constitute license to continue to disrupt the discourse based on the PO post. We expect all parties to exercise civility and respect for the members who are participating in the discussion based on the issues raised in the OP post. As Sukerkin says, if you feel that you personally have been abused or treated uncivilly, the RTM button is your remedy.

I'm going to ask once again that we return to the specific topic of the OP and the envelope of content-related questions that has built up around it. I ask all parties to remove personality issues from this discussion. They have no place there and should not, under any circumstances, be introduced.

 

[bluekey88]

So, anyway....anyone else agree that from a military aspect, it would make sense to learn how to at least put your opponent on the ground, in regards to TKD?

It's always a good idea to put your opponent on the ground...even in sport/sparring context. It's just that the methods available to one to accomplish really depend on the context (no rules as in self-defense, defined rules as in sparring/sport)

 

[BrandonLucas]

It's always a good idea to put your opponent on the ground...even in sport/sparring context. It's just that the methods available to one to accomplish really depend on the context (no rules as in self-defense, defined rules as in sparring/sport)

True...but, as with anything else we train for, the methods should be used against a resisting opponent...I'm definitely asking my instructor tonight what he was taught in that aspect...I'm really curious now.