Feedback for AIKIA, Independent TKD

[MichiganTKD]

Jerry,

In case you didn't realize, Tae Kwon Do was originally designed and used as self defense for the Korean police and military. Believe it or not, people carried knives, guns, and weapons back then. Just because people do grappling (as opposed to when then they didn't?), doesn't mean the need for traditional MA has lessened. You honestly think that traditional Tae Kwon Do and MA are outdated and needs to be supplemented? Spoken by someone who truly sounds like they never received indepth coverage of Tae Kwon Do. I don't care what your so-called rank certificate says.
You know, you sound like someone from the 60's who says "man, those traditions you old dudes keep doing are, like, so outdated man. Ya gotta keep up with the times."
Guys like you fall prey to every trend and movement that comes along. You don't have a solid foundation. It's all about the next big thing. Today it's grappling and BJJ. Tomorrow it will be something else.
And whether or not traditional Chung Do Kwan would work in an Olympic ring means nothing to me. I know full well it wouldn't work. I don't practice Olympic style Tae Kwon Do. Some of our black belts do. They comprise our organization team that has fought internationally.
Since it is likely that Tae Kwon Do will lose its spot in the Olympics, it is a moot point anyway.

 

[Adept]

Spoken by someone who truly sounds like they never received indepth coverage of Tae Kwon Do.

So we can infer from this then, that your stance can be summarised as such:

Once someone has recieved an in-depth coverage of TKD, then one can never discover a technique from another style that may be more effective or efficient.

Furthermore, anyone who trains in multiple styles, or who blends styles (to any degree) is morally reprihensible and unable to effectively teach TKD of any kind.

Now, if I'm off-base there at all, let me know. I'm trying to do the best I can given your lack of actual points and stances.

 

[The Kai]

So we can infer from this then, that your stance can be summarised as such:

Once someone has recieved an in-depth coverage of TKD, then one can never discover a technique from another style that may be more effective or efficient.

Furthermore, anyone who trains in multiple styles, or who blends styles (to any degree) is morally reprihensible and unable to effectively teach TKD of any kind.

Now, if I'm off-base there at all, let me know. I'm trying to do the best I can given your lack of actual points and stances.

Actually I think the point is that the study of one martial art is a lifetime endevear.

When do you statrt blending styles, are you sure you gotht he point of the first one? Did you just get frustrated and moved on to something else?

 

[Adept]

Actually I think the point is that the study of one martial art is a lifetime endevear.

I can agree with that. However, I disagree with the assertion that studying a seperate art, or combining parts of arts into others is a negative thing. It's like learning anything. You can study TKD and at the same time you could learn another language, take a university course, learn to drive, learn to fly, surf or hang-glide. Just like you could also lean boxing, muay thai or systema.

In fact, having studied one martial art for a few years makes it much easier to pick up another one, since the basics of balance, strength and body mechanics have already been learned.

When do you start blending styles, are you sure you gotht he point of the first one? Did you just get frustrated and moved on to something else?

Well, it depends on how you define 'point'. the point can be to reach a high rank with a good level of proficiency in all skill areas covered by that style. Or it can mean effective RBSD. Or it can just mean extra fitness, mental discipline, or strength. IMHO, you can start blending styles as soon as you are competent enough to decide for yourself when something is more effective or efficient than something else.

 

[Flatlander]

I'm having trouble understanding why any of you involved in this discussion would begrudge a martial artist the choice that they have made. I'm curious what qualifies any of you to determine, based on the text that you are reading, that MichiganTKD is:

- missing some truth that you claim to knowledge of
- inferior because he sticks to his principles
- less of a martial artist because he refuses to dilute the art he practices.

It brings to mind a question. If there were no people like MichiganTKD who dedicate their lives to the mastery of ONE SINGLE art, what would the future of the arts look like? It seems reasonable to suppose that if everyone were to blend and incorporate things from other arts into their art, that the original essence of these arts would become changed.

I think that there is a need for people to preserve the essence of these arts so as to ensure that there is that essence to be carried forward into the future. When you change the template, subsequent copies are different. I see a value in this preservation, if for no other reason, so that these traditions are not lost in the future.

Why is this a problem for anyone? Are those of you who are attempting to convince him that he is wrong in his view so lacking in your own self assurance that you require his validation? Do your own work, and leave this man to his. We all have the freedom of choice - so allow him that and move on.

Let me also include here that I do not practice the art of Tae Kwon Do. I have no attatchment to it. That is not my motivation for this post. I see a man being picked apart for standing by his principles. I respect a man with that kind of loyalty, dedication, and perseverance, and think it is a necessary component of the global Martial Arts community.

These are my opinions, not those of Martial Talk. I post as a member of the board, not as a Moderator.

 

[KenpoTess]

Moderator Note.

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314

Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile).

Thank you,

~Tess
-MT S. Moderator-

 

[Adept]

Why is this a problem for anyone? Are those of you who are attempting to convince him that he is wrong in his view so lacking in your own self assurance that you require his validation? Do your own work, and leave this man to his. We all have the freedom of choice - so allow him that and move on.

To start with, I dont believe I have made any personal attacks on MTKD. If I let one slip through, I apologise.

To address the bulk of your post; We are not attacking, but defending. MTKD has, for the most part, been the more aggressive party in this discussion, claiming that a single, traditional style is more effective than any possible combination of styles.

The thread then turned into a mostly well reasoned debate about the merits of either cross-training or mixing styles versus sticking with a single style for your entire life. It is MTKD who has been on the attack for the most part, not the rest of the board. If we were all to simply let other people do what they want and get on with our own thing, then we may as well close down this entire site bar the help sections. We all, in all areas of these forums, have claims and opinions. We say "I think this way is better, and this is why" Someone else will say "Okay, but have you considered this other thing?" and a debate or discussion will flow from there. This is not, in and of itself, a bad thing.

We arent saying to MTKD that he shouldnt train the way he does, we are saying this is the way we train, and this is why. He is saying we are wrong, and is reluctant in explaining why he thinks that is.

 

[Flatlander]

To address the bulk of your post; We are not attacking, but defending. MTKD has, for the most part, been the more aggressive party in this discussion, claiming that a single, traditional style is more effective than any possible combination of styles.

No, he hasn't. I just read the entire thread, and found no such proclamation. I see you trying to project that statement onto him in a couple of places, however.

The thread then turned into a mostly well reasoned debate about the merits of either cross-training or mixing styles versus sticking with a single style for your entire life.

Which is off topic.

It is MTKD who has been on the attack for the most part, not the rest of the board. If we were all to simply let other people do what they want and get on with our own thing, then we may as well close down this entire site bar the help sections.

I don't think that the point of the forum is to convince others that their ways are wrong. I think that it's here so that we can share with like minded individuals.

We arent saying to MTKD that he shouldnt train the way he does, we are saying this is the way we train, and this is why. He is saying we are wrong, and is reluctant in explaining why he thinks that is.

I suggest re-reading the thread in the context of the original premise.

 

[Adept]

No, he hasn't. I just read the entire thread, and found no such proclamation. I see you trying to project that statement onto him in a couple of places, however.

You honestly think that traditional Tae Kwon Do and MA are outdated and needs to be supplemented? Spoken by someone who truly sounds like they never received indepth coverage of Tae Kwon Do. I don't care what your so-called rank certificate says.
You know, you sound like someone from the 60's who says "man, those traditions you old dudes keep doing are, like, so outdated man. Ya gotta keep up with the times."
Guys like you fall prey to every trend and movement that comes along. You don't have a solid foundation. It's all about the next big thing. Today it's grappling and BJJ. Tomorrow it will be something else.

Guys like you feel no loyalty to your Instructor or anyone... Unlike some Instructors, mine did not break away from his Instructor the first chance he got, create his own half-baked style, and hand out questionable ranks.

And since they have no loyalty to their original Instructor, they end up learning from whatever half baked no talent comes along. So you have this mish mosh of TKD/judo/hapkido/wrestling/boxing/"reality street defense". Arts that, while fine alone, have nothing in common. Why in the world would I want to be a part of that?

someone who is a Tae Kwon Do Instructor, JKD Instructor, MMA Instructor, AND kickboxing Instructor? Sorry, don't buy it. How good are they really going to be?... it's just buffet martial arts. Take a little helping of each serving without really getting too much into it.

The text in italics is from several different posts by MTKD. I would not consider it to be aggresive or rude, but I would consider it to be in disagreement on the ethos of cross-training or mixing styles. He disagrees either because he feels it is inferior to his own style of training, or because he is playing the devils advocate. His posts have, IMHO, been too impassioned to be the devils advocate, hence I feel confident in the former assumption.

Which is off topic.

So long as the thread is civil, topic doesnt matter much. One cannot force the direction of a conversation without engendering much ill will.

I don't think that the point of the forum is to convince others that their ways are wrong. I think that it's here so that we can share with like minded individuals.

And what a dull place life would be, and how short these threads would be if all we did was agree. Without a challenge to our views, we wont know when we are wrong. It isn't about proving other people wrong, so much as making sure we are right, and knowing when we are not. If I was to state, in a well reasoned manner why I feel all MA training is useless in self defense situations, I would quite rightly be set straight. I could then learn from that, and re-appraise my stance on the issue. This is the spirit of debate and discussion.

 

[Flatlander]

The text in italics is from several different posts by MTKD. I would not consider it to be aggresive or rude, but I would consider it to be in disagreement on the ethos of cross-training or mixing styles. He disagrees either because he feels it is inferior to his own style of training, or because he is playing the devils advocate. His posts have, IMHO, been too impassioned to be the devils advocate, hence I feel confident in the former assumption.

An assumption, nonetheless. However, I'm not terribly attatched to your beliefs. Interpret how you choose. Just be aware of the differences between truth and assumptions.

So long as the thread is civil, topic doesnt matter much. One cannot force the direction of a conversation without engendering much ill will.

From the forum rules and policies for your reference: Please post to the correct forum, for a reason and on topic.

And what a dull place life would be, and how short these threads would be if all we did was agree. Without a challenge to our views, we wont know when we are wrong. It isn't about proving other people wrong, so much as making sure we are right, and knowing when we are not. If I was to state, in a well reasoned manner why I feel all MA training is useless in self defense situations, I would quite rightly be set straight. I could then learn from that, and re-appraise my stance on the issue. This is the spirit of debate and discussion.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, provided that the discussion is friendly, and productive. :asian:

I'm outta here - back to discussion, folks.

 

[Aikia]

Michican,
You never did state your name. From your sparse profile it appears that you are an aid to a nurse.
I very much support and beleive in your right to express tradition and classical martial arts. But I also beleive that there is a place for non-classical TKD. I agree with those members that feel that your posts have been agressive and intended to attack anyone that does not agree with you.
This will be my final post on the subject.

Jerry Beasley, Ed.d.

 

[The Kai]

Dr. Beasley

Since this is how you fell the need to be addressed. I think you are out of line. take a step back and RELAX
Todd

 

[ghostdog2]

Dr. Beasley:
Thank you for a topic that, for the most part, generated good postings and interesting information. Your patience may have worn a bit thin, but you showed respect and courtesy to the end. Thanks.
P.S. Marginal: Where did all that come from? Oh well, have a nice day.

 

[The Kai]

Ditto That

You have generated some posts and some heat, allthough I don't agree with everything I see your points and recognize your passion
Todd

 

[Marginal]

If you know who Robert (Bob) Perry was in History of American Kenpo a little help here?

Well, not really since I don't study Kenpo. (Why I'm in the TKD forum, and not the Kenpo one.) But that wasn't what I was trying to get at. The point was, you appreciate your instructor. I didn't care about the rank so muuch as the fact you mentioned a name, which implied a lineage etc.

I am legit and only claiming my orange belt so thats what it means in this light,
I took hard *** Training and some good skills etc to make it and am proud of my rank and lineage.
It has served me well in the real world.

The part I don't get is why you can be proud of your lineage, but others are "slaves" if they are proud of or satisfied with their own. The thread's shot through with that message from all sides. Might as well be a religious discussion in that case. Nobody's going to get anywhere trying to establish who is righter than the other.

 

[MJS]

Well, I almost didn't write this post...maybe I shouldn't have, due to the fact that I do not study TKD, but I decided to anyways...I'm trying to keep an open mind here, and learn a little more about this art. I've had some chats with Marginal, both on the forum and in PM, and he has taken the time to explain things and answer my questions. That being said, I thank him for that! :asian:

As for my post, and this thread. IMO, going back to the very first post, it appears, at least to me anyways, that it was a simple inqury by Jerry and his org. Now, like Kenpo, there are many different orgs., and its apparent the same is said for TKD. Is one org. going to always agree with the other? Of course not, but the fact is, is that the art of TKD is still being spread.

The "My style is better than your style" debate seems like it'll never end. There will always be a split in the TMA/MMA/RBSD, etc. groups. and chances are, they will never see eye to eye. I've talked to alot of people about this recently, as similar debates pop up all the time on a few other forums. One phrase that has been coined is cross referrencing. Now, this is not to be confused with cross training. And yes, there is a difference here.

Now, as for the training methods...will something that was created years ago still be effective today? Possibly. Will slight mods. have to be made? Again, possibly. After watching a few threads on MT about kata, it is very true that one has to have an understanding of something to truly make it work. IMO, it all comes down to how its trained. One thing that I'm not going to do here, is start preaching another "realism and aliveness" song, as its certainly been :deadhorse !!

Lets get back to some good discussion people. As I said in a past post. 1- This thread got waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic. 2- If you don't like the way one group is doing something, thats fine. If you're not a part of that group, then theres nothing to worry about! :supcool:

Mike

 

[Disco]

I've sat and watched and even made a small post way back towards the beginning on cross training. I said up front that the reason this thread was started was for promotional purposes. Why would someone, who has never been on this site prior, openly asked for feedback on his organization? Was there any discussions of any kind ongoing relating to the AIKIA? Why would there be a need to find out why people have left or were not interested in the first place, if it was not self promoting. It was a cleaver way to draw attention.

Lets make one thing very clear here. I don't think anybody is or has a dispute with anyone's technical prowess, it's more along the lines of business acumen. Use this as an example;
You receive the AIKIA black belt membership certificate ($30 value), instructor certificate ($60 value), school charter/agent certificate ($90 value), and five free complete student memberships ($100 resale value) to get you started. And you may test for advanced dan rank ($100-$400 value). Many agents complete dan rank exams within the first six months of membership.
At a retail value of more than $599, you pay the wholesale rate of just $199. And since you receive a $100 resale value in student memberships, your initial investment in the world’s leading independent teachers organization is just $99! The yearly renewal fee remains at $99. This is an incredible opportunity, so join today!
I'm sorry, but to me this smacks of an amway distributorship. Your not a member, your an "agent". You have to / should sell something to get back some of what you paid. You also keep paying every year. It's apparent that I have drawn my own conclusions, feel "FREE" to draw your own.

 

[MichiganTKD]

This is what I have to say so that are no misconceptions.

I don't have a problem with BJJ, wrestling, kickboxing etc. I have a problem with someone who tries to combine them all into one neat little system. It can't be done. The mechanics, mentality, philosophy, and state of mind in each are different.

I don't believe that traditional martial arts like traditional TKD, karate, kung fu etc. need to be supplemented. After achieving a certain rank (Dan level), if you want to experience a different art to seek a new challenge, that's fine. I started aikido after achieving 4th Dan in Tae Kwon Do because aikido interests me, NOT because I felt Tae Kwon Do was missing something. If you practice under a competent Instructor, it should be pretty complete.

Don't come on Martial Talk to promote your organization or a new system. I don't care how many Halls of Fame you are in or how many celebrities you know. To me, Martial Talk is about participants discussing various ideas, not promoting themselves or their agendas.

 

[Adept]

I don't have a problem with BJJ, wrestling, kickboxing etc. I have a problem with someone who tries to combine them all into one neat little system. It can't be done.

Sure it can. People do it across the globe every day, very succesfully.

The mechanics

The different mechanics are one of the main advantages.

mentality

It is the student who has a mentality, not the art. The art or style is simply a series of movements.

philosophy, and state of mind in each are different.

Again, the philosophy and state of mind are unique to the practitioners, not the movements.

I don't believe that traditional martial arts like traditional TKD, karate, kung fu etc. need to be supplemented.

That depends on your goal.

 

[Aikia]

Miles,
The testing took place in about 1983. That was a lot of money for a college TKD club. On another occassion a member told me his Korean "Master" intended to charge him $6000 for certification to 6th dan. It is better to raise monthly fees than to have the high promotion fees. Students and parents do not appreciate the often high fees. Some instructors will try to pull the wool over students eyes and argue about why they deserve the fees. And there is still the common practice of having a board to promote when only the actual instructor makes the decision. This practice is may often be an excuse for the instructors to get together at the students expense. This is true but some will argue so as to convince themselves that it is O.K. to gouge the student at test time.
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