Is it OK for my child to be humiliated?

[Flatfish]

Just a quick comment on how the Dojang we attend handles disciplinary issues:

Depending on the situation, the whole class is addressed about issues without singling anyone out (even if it's just one kid that misbehaves). That gives everyone a chance to self correct.
Direct warnings if children don't participate, goof off etc.
Pushups or 10 mins of sitting out if the warnings bear no fruit
Taking away a belt for a couple of weeks and the student will have to earn it back over time with good behavior (this for serious stuff only, like ignoring absolute no nos in class)

In any of these cases kids would be embarrassed but that is the point isn't it?

I can't comment on the OP's situation directly because I feel I do not have enough information as to what exactly happened.

 

[MichaelSourey]

What I have decided to do for now:
After discussing this with my son, he has told me that he wants to continue with lessons with this instructor. I have decided to swallow my indignation and pride and take my son early to the next scheduled lesson. I will try to see if the instructor will agree to have a discussion with myself and my son. I will try to manage the situation towards a positive outcome.

To: Steve
My son specifically wishes to pursue this particular martial art, he has been persuaded that it is superior to others, and he has school friends who attend this particular class. There is limited provision of classes for this particular martial art in my area, I suspect there is even less for children.

I agree with you that I am paying for a service and that it is reasonable for me to expect a high standard of service. In terms of tuition I am happy, in terms of responding to my complaint there has been no response, I feel that this is very unprofessional.

To: pgsmith & kempodisciple
In principle I agree with you in respect of possible penalties for lateness, but I would not expect this level of responsibility until my child was old enough to use public transport to get to lessons himself. I can't see him doing this until he is at least twelve.

To: gpseymour
I am beginning to wonder if I have over-reacted to this, from my experience of this particular tutor, I think your description of "an authoritarian teacher goofing off" may be appropriate. If I can, I will see if I can catch other parents to get their views on the situation.

To: lameman
I don't think my son is old enough yet to have a discussion with the instructor by himself, but in response to your suggestion I will include him in the discussion I hope to have with the instructor.

In general, our times of arrival for lessons have either been in good time, 5 to 10 minutes before the lesson is due to start, or just in time for the start. We have never been substantially late. For special events such as my son's two grading sessions and a tournament we have been early.

Something that I sense is an underlying theme to this thread is whether I am taking these martial arts lessons for my son seriously. To be honest, I don't. To me these lessons are a non-essential, fun, after school activity that my son can do with some of his friends. I see the value of learning self-defense (I have no self defense skills). I do commit to getting my son to lessons, gradings etc because this is something he wants to do. However, this is all it is to me. To me, this is not like his day time schooling which is geniunely important. It is just is not the same thing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Things should be ok as long as the embarrassment and humiliation isn't being done to tear the student down. It sound different from when kids laugh at each other because a child is having a difficult time learning a technique.
Usually if it's really bad for a child, he or she won't be eager to return.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think this is a good way to go about it. I'm glad you're including your son in the conversation, and that you are planning on to do it away from the other students/parents.

 

[Tez3]

Just one point, anything your child is learning is as important as academic learning, sometimes it's even more so because academic learning doesn't often teach self reliance, self confidence, teamwork as well as fun, relaxation and the ability to be themselves. It doesn't matter what out of school activity it is, it's important. Academic learing is important but it's not a lot of use unless you are also a well rounded person. If two people go for a job and they have the same academic qualifications the one who gets the job will be the one with hobbies and interest which show them to have more qualities than just the ability to pass exams.

 

[lklawson]

The circumstances of the event were as follows:
I arrived at the class with my son. As we walked in, I noticed that the instructor was lying on the floor at the front of the class with his feet resting on the crouched body of one of the children. There were giggles and laughter from that child, the other children in the class and from the three or four other parents that were there.

The instructor then said to my son, "Oh, you're late, come here". I don't think we were late because the class had not started. He instructed my son to crouch down so that he could rest his head on my son's back.

When I read "humiliated" in the subject I thought someone had pantsed the kid or sprayed water on his crotch or something.

Leaning against him?

Sounds a bit odd but I guess we might have different definitions of humiliation.

Just remember, every snowflake is unique and beautiful.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[MichaelSourey]

Just one point, anything your child is learning is as important as academic learning, sometimes it's even more so because academic learning doesn't often teach self reliance, self confidence, teamwork as well as fun, relaxation and the ability to be themselves. It doesn't matter what out of school activity it is, it's important. Academic learing is important but it's not a lot of use unless you are also a well rounded person. If two people go for a job and they have the same academic qualifications the one who gets the job will be the one with hobbies and interest which show them to have more qualities than just the ability to pass exams.

Point taken.

 

[Tez3]

had pantsed the kid

What's that then? bear in mind to us over here 'pants' are underwear.

 

[Touch Of Death]

What's that then? bear in mind to us over here 'pants' are underwear.

I hear, there's a place in France...

 

[GiYu - Todd]

I would suspect if the other parents who regularly stay and watch the entire class didn't have a concern for what was going on, then it probably wasn't anything that bad. I would further suspect that since the kids were giggling about it, they didn't feel it was bad either, lest their giggles would draw attention of the instructor in question and join in the punishment. If you had a question, you could have asked one of the other parents about what was going on, and hopefully gotten a satisfactory answer.

Our instructors often goof off a bit with the students before class begins. It helps everyone relax a bit and is good bonding time. Usually, the kids are well behaved, but sometimes they just aren't, and we have to take measures to correct them. It's typically pretty mild stuff (laps, pushups, etc), but helps them understand where the behavioral boundaries lie.

We typically hold the kids responsible for themselves, even if it's their parent's fault. It's easy to just call ahead and say you're running a few minutes late... and no longer have it be an unexcused tardiness (so no punishment). We try to set high standards for our kids because we want them to learn to be responsible citizens. That means being on time (whether arriving to class or returning from a water break), following directions, being respectful of their training partners and instructors. The "fighting skills" are actually a lower priority in many schools than developing kids' character.

I hope you can find a satisfactory resolution.

 

[lklawson]

What's that then? bear in mind to us over here 'pants' are underwear.

To yank down the victim's trousers, displaying the under-pants to the world. Sometimes the under-pants are part of the yanking, displaying the victim's goods to the world.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

Something that I sense is an underlying theme to this thread is whether I am taking these martial arts lessons for my son seriously. To be honest, I don't. To me these lessons are a non-essential, fun, after school activity that my son can do with some of his friends. I see the value of learning self-defense (I have no self defense skills). I do commit to getting my son to lessons, gradings etc because this is something he wants to do. However, this is all it is to me. To me, this is not like his day time schooling which is geniunely important. It is just is not the same thing.

I know that there are many different perspectives here, but I'll say once again that this isn't any different than ANY other sport or athletic activity.

I think you have a very healthy attitude. I'm glad to see that you are keeping these lessons in perspective and frankly, I disagree completely with the idea that you should be taking these lessons seriously at all... or at least any more seriously than any other youth activity. The reality is that your son is likely NOT learning any practical self defense, and will not be a killer ninja by the time he's 12 (even if he does have a black belt). That said, there is a ton of value in kids participating in sports and outside activities that they enjoy and which provide healthy environments for them to develop, and if he enjoys this particular activity, awesome.

What your son should be learning (hopefully) are the same things that he would get from any quality coach or teacher, whether in scouts, little league, or learning to play the tuba.

If your guy tries to market it as something MORE or different from little league baseball, football, or any other youth activity, trust your instincts. If he's doing things that you would find unacceptable from the scout leader, chess team coach, teacher or any other adult, don't let your gut reaction be influenced by others. And that goes for us strangers or, frankly, other parents. We have an epidemic of poor parenting in this country. I wouldn't presume that because other parents are okay with something, they are wise to be so.

 

[Tez3]

so, Yanks pulling down pants

Well, that would be humiliating and certainly cause to do more than complain, leaning against someone, not so much.

 

[lklawson]

so, Yanks pulling down pants

Well, that would be humiliating and certainly cause to do more than complain, leaning against someone, not so much.

When I was young it was something which school children under the age of about 12 sometimes did to each other in order to embarrass or humiliate the victim (sometimes their friends). It would sometimes precipitate a fight. No adult would ever consider doing it to a child, but if they were out at a pub and drunk enough, they might try doing it to their (equally drunk) friend.

I'm struggling to understand how a teacher leaning his head against a student is "humiliating." I agree that it is "odd" and unusual but "humiliating?" Not unless the definition of "humiliating" has changed to "any attention which is not utterly praising and fawning" or something.

Musta been a micro-aggression.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Humiliating: causing someone to feel ashamed and foolish by injuring their dignity and self-respect.

If he caused the student to feel ashamed about being late, or it injured his dignity by using him as an headrest, it is humiliating. Personally, I think the kid probably only felt embarrassment, but if he has enough dignity it's possible.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I know that there are many different perspectives here, but I'll say once again that this isn't any different than ANY other sport or athletic activity.

I think you have a very healthy attitude. I'm glad to see that you are keeping these lessons in perspective and frankly, I disagree completely with the idea that you should be taking these lessons seriously at all... or at least any more seriously than any other youth activity. The reality is that your son is likely NOT learning any practical self defense, and will not be a killer ninja by the time he's 12 (even if he does have a black belt). That said, there is a ton of value in kids participating in sports and outside activities that they enjoy and which provide healthy environments for them to develop, and if he enjoys this particular activity, awesome.

What your son should be learning (hopefully) are the same things that he would get from any quality coach or teacher, whether in scouts, little league, or learning to play the tuba.

If your guy tries to market it as something MORE or different from little league baseball, football, or any other youth activity, trust your instincts. If he's doing things that you would find unacceptable from the scout leader, chess team coach, teacher or any other adult, don't let your gut reaction be influenced by others. And that goes for us strangers or, frankly, other parents. We have an epidemic of poor parenting in this country. I wouldn't presume that because other parents are okay with something, they are wise to be so.

Don't limit people. That is what it is to you, and you only. Perhaps it is a good suggestion, but some of us were trained ninjas, at a very early age.

 

[Steve]

Don't limit people. That is what it is to you, and you only. Perhaps it is a good suggestion, but some of us were trained ninjas, at a very early age.

How is advising someone to trust their instincts as a parent limiting?

 

[Touch Of Death]

How is advising someone to trust their instincts as a parent limiting?

You wrote a bunch of other stuff.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I am just saying Martial Arts can be your whole life, if you so desire. Why say it is like the friggin Cub Scouts?

 

[Steve]

You wrote a bunch of other stuff.

That's true. Which stuff do you find limiting?