Timid kid in BJJ, should aggression be advised?

[Rich Parsons]

I think it’s really telling when guys who talk a lot about NOT training for competition also talk a lot about winning in training. Okay, fine. I’m sure you really taught those rude UFC guys a thing or two.

Steve,

You are most likely correct.

Can I explain some of my history?
If not then just ignore.

I used to bounce and do security in the not so safe area of the Flint Metro and Flint in the 80's when it was continuously listed on the worst places to live in the USA.

Some highlights and not everything

I have been shot at a few times.
Twice in vehicles.
One was a shot that took out both windows. In the Driver's and out the Passenger's. I pulled over to investigate as I actually was not sure.
The police showing up for shots fired in the area confirmed the noise I had heard.

The other someone else was driving and a vehicle behind us and it was a shotgun and the shot not slug shattered the rear window. I was laying down in the rear-seat yelling to get out of there.

I was shot at in a drive by. I was extremely lucky. If the shooter which I saw did not lock out his arm at the last second and push the muzzle down I would have been hit. As it went between my knees. I saw the flash and heard the bang from the front and impact behind me at the same time. After checking if I was hit, I marked my location and then checked the wall and it had gone through / between my legs just above the knee . The guy next to me had soiled his pants (both 1 & 2) I told him to go home and shower and then come back to work.

In a crowd for a BMX halfpipe event I showed up near the end for my shift to help close it out and get people moving. I was stabbed in the leg and thought it was a punch. I looked for them but with over 10,000 people at the event and it being wall to wall people I lost them in the crowd as I chased after them. Then someone I knew said hey Rich why is your pants wet? It was blood. Luckily a small knife and the blade shifted so it more flayed then stabbed me.

I have been tazed, threatened with Cattle prods, I have taken Baseball Bats, and Golf Clubs and Tire Irons and clubs of all sizes from people. I have taken a knife or two form people as well. All with a form of a disarm.

I was tackled by four guys and we all went through a plate glass window with me in the lead.

I have been between gang fights, and I have had to fight multiple opponents a lot. I used to call a fair fight four people. Why?
Well with three and one good fighter on their side they didn't interfere with each other and I could easily get into trouble. Same with two circling. Five and more people always had a few looking and few waiting until the crowd or easy kicks and punches could be taken.
So four seemed to keep it more in the dance and minimal contact and interaction.

I have been hit by vehicles. I have face planted on the hoods of trucks and Full Size SUVs trying to get up and away from being run over. I have also tried to climb into the vehicle at 55 my smashing the windshield to get in. Both times they slowed almost to a stop and I rolled off and they took off.

I have worked PIT security for concerts, when Insurance was cancelled and pits were not allowed to keep people safe.


I have seen violence. I understand it.

Now if you want to know some negativity about me, For a while I was addicted to the adrenaline. I even learned to give myself a dump, just to feel the chill down the spine and get it over with before the conflict would begin. You know like many fighters hit themselves to trigger the initial Adrenaline before a fight. Only I didn't need the impact to trigger it.
I knew this was bad. I worked to not do it any more.
I graduated College - Yes those jobs did help to pay for college as they were Cash or higher paying than the $2.75/$3.15/$3.35 Minimum wages.

I worked to end it before I left those jobs.
I cleaned up a few places so they were NOT so hard or difficult or chance of conflict.

...

So as a person who understands violence, I understand the look in people's eyes. I understand the body posture.
I understand increased breath rate. I understand and it still scares me as I get the reactions, and my Flight or Fight Response still kicks in.

So violence in the club and in the ring are just different levels of violence with different rules of engagement.

***

And for those that will say I was a Gang Banger or a Criminal, No I was not. I don't like Bullies. I also was / am a Sheepdog who worked and hung-out in a high wolf environment.
The local cops (* Not police or LEOs as the later two understand Law enforcement and do not partake in the criminal activities *) were some of the worst. One Chief had contacts in Florida and they would move officers caught sleeping with High School Girls and or selling drugs to High School kids back and forth and then after 3 to 5 years they would come back , as no one in the target pools was still around or active.

***

So Steve and others, you can be upset with my comments. It is ok. Your feelings are your feelings.
Yet, I ask for you to understand, that MMA is not the only group that tests their work and techniques.

I am not sure if the Escrima Digest is still online, check out back in 1999 for when some Leo Gaje's students calling themselves the Dog Eaters and challenging everyone to live Bolo fights as they had a salve that could cure/heal the wounds from the outside and if taken orally it would also cure and heal the wounds internally.

I replied that I accepted, and that we should meet in the middle and as that would be water in the Pacific I proposed Hawai'i as my BCBS card would still work and they could bring the salve. We also would need to plan out over 6 months to give people time to plan for the time off and schedule the travel.

There response was that it had to be in their country on their island as they could not afford to fly. And before I could reply, those who had it on individual post versus grouped took over the calling them out with their expectations. They said here is a guy crazy enough to accept and set reasonable terms and conditions and yet they refused.

** Note THIS IS NOT A CHALLENGE -- THIS IS REPOSTING DATA relevant to the discussion **

We all have our opinions. I know what I have done in the past and have data on how I most likely will respond in the future.
Today, would be yo! I am sorry, Can I just go home? Why? Because I need to heal more. Get into better shape.

So, take it for what I mean, I am not trying to invalidate anything you have posted. I am just following up to your posts and comments to make sure things are clear.

 

[Steve]

Steve,

You are most likely correct.

Can I explain some of my history?
If not then just ignore.

I used to bounce and do security in the not so safe area of the Flint Metro and Flint in the 80's when it was continuously listed on the worst places to live in the USA.

Some highlights and not everything

I have been shot at a few times.
Twice in vehicles.
One was a shot that took out both windows. In the Driver's and out the Passenger's. I pulled over to investigate as I actually was not sure.
The police showing up for shots fired in the area confirmed the noise I had heard.

The other someone else was driving and a vehicle behind us and it was a shotgun and the shot not slug shattered the rear window. I was laying down in the rear-seat yelling to get out of there.

I was shot at in a drive by. I was extremely lucky. If the shooter which I saw did not lock out his arm at the last second and push the muzzle down I would have been hit. As it went between my knees. I saw the flash and heard the bang from the front and impact behind me at the same time. After checking if I was hit, I marked my location and then checked the wall and it had gone through / between my legs just above the knee . The guy next to me had soiled his pants (both 1 & 2) I told him to go home and shower and then come back to work.

In a crowd for a BMX halfpipe event I showed up near the end for my shift to help close it out and get people moving. I was stabbed in the leg and thought it was a punch. I looked for them but with over 10,000 people at the event and it being wall to wall people I lost them in the crowd as I chased after them. Then someone I knew said hey Rich why is your pants wet? It was blood. Luckily a small knife and the blade shifted so it more flayed then stabbed me.

I have been tazed, threatened with Cattle prods, I have taken Baseball Bats, and Golf Clubs and Tire Irons and clubs of all sizes from people. I have taken a knife or two form people as well. All with a form of a disarm.

I was tackled by four guys and we all went through a plate glass window with me in the lead.

I have been between gang fights, and I have had to fight multiple opponents a lot. I used to call a fair fight four people. Why?
Well with three and one good fighter on their side they didn't interfere with each other and I could easily get into trouble. Same with two circling. Five and more people always had a few looking and few waiting until the crowd or easy kicks and punches could be taken.
So four seemed to keep it more in the dance and minimal contact and interaction.

I have been hit by vehicles. I have face planted on the hoods of trucks and Full Size SUVs trying to get up and away from being run over. I have also tried to climb into the vehicle at 55 my smashing the windshield to get in. Both times they slowed almost to a stop and I rolled off and they took off.

I have worked PIT security for concerts, when Insurance was cancelled and pits were not allowed to keep people safe.


I have seen violence. I understand it.

Now if you want to know some negativity about me, For a while I was addicted to the adrenaline. I even learned to give myself a dump, just to feel the chill down the spine and get it over with before the conflict would begin. You know like many fighters hit themselves to trigger the initial Adrenaline before a fight. Only I didn't need the impact to trigger it.
I knew this was bad. I worked to not do it any more.
I graduated College - Yes those jobs did help to pay for college as they were Cash or higher paying than the $2.75/$3.15/$3.35 Minimum wages.

I worked to end it before I left those jobs.
I cleaned up a few places so they were NOT so hard or difficult or chance of conflict.

...

So as a person who understands violence, I understand the look in people's eyes. I understand the body posture.
I understand increased breath rate. I understand and it still scares me as I get the reactions, and my Flight or Fight Response still kicks in.

So violence in the club and in the ring are just different levels of violence with different rules of engagement.

***

And for those that will say I was a Gang Banger or a Criminal, No I was not. I don't like Bullies. I also was / am a Sheepdog who worked and hung-out in a high wolf environment.
The local cops (* Not police or LEOs as the later two understand Law enforcement and do not partake in the criminal activities *) were some of the worst. One Chief had contacts in Florida and they would move officers caught sleeping with High School Girls and or selling drugs to High School kids back and forth and then after 3 to 5 years they would come back , as no one in the target pools was still around or active.

***

So Steve and others, you can be upset with my comments. It is ok. Your feelings are your feelings.
Yet, I ask for you to understand, that MMA is not the only group that tests their work and techniques.

I am not sure if the Escrima Digest is still online, check out back in 1999 for when some Leo Gaje's students calling themselves the Dog Eaters and challenging everyone to live Bolo fights as they had a salve that could cure/heal the wounds from the outside and if taken orally it would also cure and heal the wounds internally.

I replied that I accepted, and that we should meet in the middle and as that would be water in the Pacific I proposed Hawai'i as my BCBS card would still work and they could bring the salve. We also would need to plan out over 6 months to give people time to plan for the time off and schedule the travel.

There response was that it had to be in their country on their island as they could not afford to fly. And before I could reply, those who had it on individual post versus grouped took over the calling them out with their expectations. They said here is a guy crazy enough to accept and set reasonable terms and conditions and yet they refused.

** Note THIS IS NOT A CHALLENGE -- THIS IS REPOSTING DATA relevant to the discussion **

We all have our opinions. I know what I have done in the past and have data on how I most likely will respond in the future.
Today, would be yo! I am sorry, Can I just go home? Why? Because I need to heal more. Get into better shape.

So, take it for what I mean, I am not trying to invalidate anything you have posted. I am just following up to your posts and comments to make sure things are clear.

Im not upset with you at all. I just think you are a little fixated on keeping score and have a tendency to promote unrelealisitc stereotypes. I appreciate the response. I thought I was being pretty clear, but I guess not.

 

[drop bear]

I think it’s really telling when guys who talk a lot about NOT training for competition also talk a lot about winning in training. Okay, fine. I’m sure you really taught those rude UFC guys a thing or two.

Image is everything in RSBD.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Tony,
To be clear actual Currently Signed UFC Fighters no.

Thanks for the clarification. Your original post gave an impression of events which seemed unlikely to me and your follow up makes more sense.

One of Dan Severns' training partners when he lived in Flint came to our school.
He was a real good wrestler and also was polite.
We only worked on what he wanted to work on. He showed up once a week on Sundays for about an hour of our two hour class.
It was great.
When he asked me what I would do in certain situations I told him I was not allowed to fight / resist you , outside the techniques you stated were acceptable.
I had no problems with that.
I asked again later and really wanted to know. My Senior said yes.
So I rolled with him, my way. He still beat me in the end, yet I did get him a couple of times. But if it was based upon points or domination he would have won.
The point he made to me was, that he had not been pushed liked that. It removed so many of his options, and and had to play tighter, and not even relax one bit around me. He also said the trade offs was not "worth the win"

So if I'm understanding you correctly, you mostly sparred with this gentleman under his rules. (I guess this was something that the person running the class had agreed to?) However one time you sparred under a more open ruleset where you got to use moves which aren't legal in MMA and this forced the wrestler to play a tighter game, which he didn't enjoy so much and didn't continue pursuing since it wasn't relevant to his sport competition interests?

That sounds reasonable. Personally I enjoy periodically sparring with various "forbidden" "dirty fighting" techniques mixed in. (Although you need to do this with someone you can trust to use appropriate control.) As you say, it forces you to play a tighter game and be more technically sound. If you can do MMA sparring or grappling in such a way that your opponent can't effectively head butt/eye gouge/finger lock/hair pull/etc, then that just makes your regular sparring/grappling more on point. But I accept that not everybody is interested in this.

That being said, in the 00's it seemed that one could not turn a corner in my area without finding a new MMA Club. Usually run by Blue belts looking for fresh meat to grind.

When they would get tired of that or in need the would go to clubs and Check out a class and ask questions and get on to the mats and then push things. And yes many of them were registered for local MMA Fights. Maybe not winners, maybe not what people would call UFC Caliber or Pride Caliber. Yet, they all wanted to be there. "Wannabees"

These guys usually did not care if they hurt people.

Besides these guys, I would get those who had trained with them and had a blown shoulder or broken elbow come to me and say maybe weapons training is what they need as they can no longer train in the other with the existing injuries.

That would have been the early days of MMA and it sounds like you had a wave of underqualified amateur wannabees with bad attitudes in your area. Hopefully by now they've all matured or gotten out of the field. Just to make it clear for those who haven't been exposed to the MMA community, this is not a typical sort of behavior now and even back then it would have been the exception. You may have had an unfortunate statistical clump of a-holes. (Or maybe you just didn't see so much of the serious practitioners because they were busy training and improving in their own gyms.)

I also travelled for events and sometimes people would say hay join our roll. And while not BJJ it was JJJ and there was usually a weight different in my favor. And yes those Black belts would tap me , I counted counters. For each counter I got with their rules was a personal win for me. One was in an armbar and they did not quite have it, and I was trying to counter. He heel popped me in the nose (Good Thing it is flexible) and then gave that ultra grunt for maximum strength and tried to popped backwards with shoulders and pop up with hips.
I was verbally tapping and physically tapping before it was even half way through.
He HAD to win that move with a newbie walking in off the streets to teach / attend a seminar later in the day did not matter. He was going to win. I never really played / rolled / or trained with that person ever again.

In MMA/BJJ gyms, this behavior is mostly just seen in beginners who don't know any better and usually gets fixed well before blue belt. Students who don't respect the safety of their training partners will be corrected verbally at first and then physically if necessary. There are always exceptions of course, but in general BJJ/MMA culture is strongly against tolerating practitioners who don't allow their sparring partners time to tap. I can't speak to the culture of whatever form of JJJ the guy you were rolling with practiced.

Slap the ears.
Cup the back of the head while the front of the face and wiggle the skull.
If the engage work their fingers and if they don't tap let them know what will happen. And that if it breaks or dislocates they usually can't train or fight and would be DQ'd .

They have a set of rules, and when those rules are broken they are shocked and angry. Many have staid for a while longer in their journey. Some have left. That is ok. I don't want people being hurt in my classes.

FYI, ear clapping and skull wiggling are legal under current MMA rules. Finger breaks are not, but I'm not sure I ever saw them used effectively back when they were legal. You mention fighters dropping out of tournaments due to finger injuries, but I believe those were mostly broken hands from punching bare-fisted prior to the introduction of MMA gloves. Nevertheless, I do try to teach my students how to protect their fingers from being attacked. I figure it's useful even for those who are only interested in sport, because having a technique banned doesn't mean it never happens in competition - it just means that some people learn to do it in a way that the ref can't see it.

I don't know that I can agree with the idea that competitors are "shocked and angry" in general when you go outside their usual rulesets. I'd say that only happens when you've already agreed to spar or compete under those rules - in which case they have every right to be mad that you are breaking your word and cheating. If you agree up front to what you will include in your sparring, be it groin shots, hair pulling, finger attacks, whatever, then those are fair game.

BTW - Gerard Gordeau may be an illustrative case. Gordeau is a tough, skilled martial artist and, in my opinion, a sociopath. When he fought Royce Gracie, he decided to gain an advantage by biting. He lost by rear naked choke and Royce held the choke for some extra time after the tap in retaliation. Later on Gordeau fought Yuki Nakai and repeatedly used illegal eye gouges which ultimately resulted in Nakai permanently losing the sight in one eye. Despite this, Gordeau lost again, tapping out to a heel hook. Nakai proved himself a better man than I am by respecting the tap. Under the circumstances I think he would have been justified in breaking Gordeau's leg and not stopping until the ref dragged him off.

 

[lklawson]

Steve,

You are most likely correct.

Can I explain some of my history?
If not then just ignore.

I used to bounce and do security in the not so safe area of the Flint Metro and Flint in the 80's when it was continuously listed on the worst places to live in the USA.

So south of Dort? I went to HS at Flint Academy. It was south of Dort too but at least it wasn't Central HS.

I don't remember there being too many clubs there but, then again, I was in HS and not interested in clubbing.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Rich Parsons]

So south of Dort? I went to HS at Flint Academy. It was south of Dort too but at least it wasn't Central HS.

I don't remember there being too many clubs there but, then again, I was in HS and not interested in clubbing.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Yes Sir, the edge of Flint / Burton, and also Downtown Flint in the 80's and occasionally in the 90's.
I had friends who went to Central. And others who went to Atherton .

Dort runs North South , so yes south side of Dort.
Yet the North Side Gangs "B Boys" and others respected me where I worked. I didn't kick them out just for walking or showing up.
I asked them nicely to disarm the heavy artillery and they did. I also asked everyone to do the same.
I treated people with respect and with that most gave it back.

 

[lklawson]

Yes Sir, the edge of Flint / Burton, and also Downtown Flint in the 80's and occasionally in the 90's.
I had friends who went to Central. And others who went to Atherton .

I was done with HS in '96. Had friends who attended Central. I was at Flint Academy. They shuttered some years ago now. It's kinda weird when the HS you went to doesn't exist any more.

Dort runs North South , so yes south side of Dort.

The south side of Dort has kinda slipped over Dort and has now expanded.

Yet the North Side Gangs "B Boys" and others respected me where I worked. I didn't kick them out just for walking or showing up.
I asked them nicely to disarm the heavy artillery and they did. I also asked everyone to do the same.
I treated people with respect and with that most gave it back.

In HS, I had a buddy who managed to get on the wrong side of one of the bangers. I ended up giving him a ride home most of his Sr. year.

Most of 'em left me alone though. I didn't bother them and they didn't bother me. I got some sideways looks and some stink-eye from time to time but it was mostly fine. There were a few places I wouldn't drive after dark or if I didn't have some of my melanin rich friends in the car with me. I mean, I was young and dumb but not THAT dumb.

Flint was also where I got my first training in Martial Arts. Tang Soo Do under Merle DeMott (RIP), one of Steven Wall's students. This was waaay back when it was still Tang Soo Do Mu Duk Kwan. Boy was that an interesting evolution.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Rich Parsons]

I was done with HS in '96. Had friends who attended Central. I was at Flint Academy. They shuttered some years ago now. It's kinda weird when the HS you went to doesn't exist any more.



The south side of Dort has kinda slipped over Dort and has now expanded.


In HS, I had a buddy who managed to get on the wrong side of one of the bangers. I ended up giving him a ride home most of his Sr. year.

Most of 'em left me alone though. I didn't bother them and they didn't bother me. I got some sideways looks and some stink-eye from time to time but it was mostly fine. There were a few places I wouldn't drive after dark or if I didn't have some of my melanin rich friends in the car with me. I mean, I was young and dumb but not THAT dumb.

Flint was also where I got my first training in Martial Arts. Tang Soo Do under Merle DeMott (RIP), one of Steven Wall's students. This was waaay back when it was still Tang Soo Do Mu Duk Kwan. Boy was that an interesting evolution.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I was pretty much done with the scene way before 96. I did do the occasional show at the Capitol or cover a door for the Back Room off the Alley.

Yes Dort goes south to Cook and almost complete to Baldwin now.

I also left them (Bangers) alone and or treated with respect and they did the same.
I did have some friends who grew up on MLK and I would hang with them at their house sometimes. Good People.

I began training at the Flint Dojo in Modern Arnis. Before my time there was a Bob DeMott associated with the Flint Arnis Group and then kind of did his own thing for a while, now he is in Florida I hear.
One of the Arnis instructors was Jeff Owens, who was in TSD. Good Guy. Black belt in both systems. I have lots of respect for him.

 

[jayoliver00]

What makes you think I would care?
And you didn't answer my question.

It would fit your M.O. to care.

 

[jayoliver00]

First, Maybe don't tell people what they can and cannot do.
Second, Provide some context to your post, and why you thought it was an issue.

And third, From my experience those who read something into it many times not always have some skin in the game.

I have had UFC guys show up for FMA cross training, and want to WIN all the time and just HURT people to show they are the dominant.
When I see this start, I stop the class discuss it, and if it continues they only work with me.
I am not a UFC nor MMA. Yet when they say, yeah but I can beat you, you won't always have a stick or knife.
I say here on the training floor bring your entry and pin me. I 'll do my defense.
...
Slap the ears.
Cup the back of the head while the front of the face and wiggle the skull.
If the engage work their fingers and if they don't tap let them know what will happen. And that if it breaks or dislocates they usually can't train or fight and would be DQ'd .

They have a set of rules, and when those rules are broken they are shocked and angry. Many have staid for a while longer in their journey. Some have left. That is ok. I don't want people being hurt in my classes.

I don't always win. I seldom win. As that would be playing by their rules. I do survive.

A UFC Wannabee could be anyone who wants to compete. It could be someone who just wants to win.
It could be a jerk who can only win by playing the mind games early on and making a circus out of the event. Save that for the Big Wrestling shows.

And I honestly fail to see Breaking bricks or boards as Cobra Kai. Or Eagle Fang for that matter.
Could you explain why you draw that analogy ?
I am serious, this is a learning moment for me.

It's almost derogatory and he's calling people's kids that just b/c they were good, compared to his kids who weren't/new.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It would fit your M.O. to care.

I wouldn't. And you still didn't answer the question. Sometimes, dodging the question is all the answer that is really needed.

 

[jayoliver00]

I wouldn't. And you still didn't answer the question. Sometimes, dodging the question is all the answer that is really needed.

well you seem to get touchy real easily, so that's why I said it fits your M.O.

 

[Dirty Dog]

well you seem to get touchy real easily, so that's why I said it fits your M.O.

Still dodging the question, I see. What a surprise!

 

[lklawson]

well you seem to get touchy real easily, so that's why I said it fits your M.O.

Yes, go on...

 

[Gyakuto]

‘Never hate your enemies, it affects your judgement’ Michael Corleone​

I don’t think aggression should ever be part of the martial arts as it is, at the very least, a slightly uncontrolled, wild, animalistic and unthinking aspect to the mind. The martial arts are about subduing that instinct and instead ‘surgically dismantling’ your enemy the the techniques you have honed to lethality. Fight like a Vulcan, not a Klingon!

 

[Rich Parsons]

‘Never hate your enemies, it affects your judgement’ Michael Corleone​

I don’t think aggression should ever be part of the martial arts as it is, at the very least, a slightly uncontrolled, wild, animalistic and unthinking aspect to the mind. The martial arts are about subduing that instinct and instead ‘surgically dismantling’ your enemy the the techniques you have honed to lethality. Fight like a Vulcan, not a Klingon!

A Vulcan in the Streets
A Klingon in the sheets?

 

[Gyakuto]

A Vulcan in the Streets
A Klingon in the sheets?

That made me laugh out loud!! From Big Bang Theory?