Is It All In Decline?

[BrandonLucas]

I think the MMA craze can hurt TMA's, but I'm not sure how long it's going to have an effect.

It seems that MMA is huge right now, and that only a small, small handful of TMA's are recognized as worth learning. Everyone is looking to what the "masters" of the MMA events are saying about what TMA's they train in, and they take it to heart. As a result, many TMA's are discarded as yesterday's news.

It bothers me to an extent to see this happen, but I realize that people are still going to train in TMA's regardless of how "popular" they become. And, if you really stop and think about it, it's the people who train in the TMA's for the love of the martial art itself that go on to further themselves...the ones who are involved with the "flavor of the month" mentality are just going to drop out when something more popular comes around.

I'm looking for the same thing to happen with MMA. It's just a matter of time.

 

[JadeDragon3]

I think the MMA craze can hurt TMA's, but I'm not sure how long it's going to have an effect.

It seems that MMA is huge right now, and that only a small, small handful of TMA's are recognized as worth learning. Everyone is looking to what the "masters" of the MMA events are saying about what TMA's they train in, and they take it to heart. As a result, many TMA's are discarded as yesterday's news.

It bothers me to an extent to see this happen, but I realize that people are still going to train in TMA's regardless of how "popular" they become. And, if you really stop and think about it, it's the people who train in the TMA's for the love of the martial art itself that go on to further themselves...the ones who are involved with the "flavor of the month" mentality are just going to drop out when something more popular comes around.

I'm looking for the same thing to happen with MMA. It's just a matter of time.

It saddens me to see how TMA are getting treated now days. People saying things like TMA will never work in a real fight because of this or because of that. All of that is BS. There is a reason why TMA have survived for this long and that rerason is because it IS effective in real combat. Unfortunitely I think MMA is hear to stay for a long time. The reason I say this is because of events like the UFC. People want to see violence and blood and the UFC offers that. Until these type events start showing fighters from a TMA background then MMA is going to be what you see and hear about for a long time. Right now MMA events is whats controlling whats popular.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think the MMA craze can hurt TMA's, but I'm not sure how long it's going to have an effect.



It seems that MMA is huge right now, and that only a small, small handful of TMA's are recognized as worth learning. Everyone is looking to what the "masters" of the MMA events are saying about what TMA's they train in, and they take it to heart. As a result, many TMA's are discarded as yesterday's news.



It bothers me to an extent to see this happen, but I realize that people are still going to train in TMA's regardless of how "popular" they become. And, if you really stop and think about it, it's the people who train in the TMA's for the love of the martial art itself that go on to further themselves...the ones who are involved with the "flavor of the month" mentality are just going to drop out when something more popular comes around.



I'm looking for the same thing to happen with MMA. It's just a matter of time.

I think that the key to dealing with what the MMA masters say about TMA is to listen to what is being said. Some of the criticisms are valid and should be addressed.

Also, some of the things being voiced by the MMA community are things that have been said for years, but never received any serious consideration until MMA came along and in some way validated them. Such criticisms, accurate or not, need to be addressed. The legitamate criticisms should become action items for the TMA community.

The less accuarate ones reflect percepetions that are out there. The perceptions may be not be accurate, but they should be addressed so that they can be dispelled.

I think that the current popularity of MMA is a positive for martial arts in general, including TMA. If addressed effectively, TMA can springboard and become better than ever. As a TMA guy, I feel that MMA is in a big way, making TMA better and more effective, which in turn, feeds back into MMA, so everyone benefits.

Daniel

 

[Tez3]

It saddens me to see how TMA are getting treated now days. People saying things like TMA will never work in a real fight because of this or because of that. All of that is BS. There is a reason why TMA have survived for this long and that rerason is because it IS effective in real combat. Unfortunitely I think MMA is hear to stay for a long time. The reason I say this is because of events like the UFC. People want to see violence and blood and the UFC offers that. Until these type events start showing fighters from a TMA background then MMA is going to be what you see and hear about for a long time. Right now MMA events is whats controlling whats popular.

All the fighters I know in MMA come from a TMA background and many practice TMA as well as compete in MMA. This ranges from TKD, karate, Whin Chun to Judo.
I have been to many MMA shows all over the UK ( not the UFC though, far too expensive and doesn't have the best fighters on) and I'd disagree with what you think the crowds want. More and more they are understanding what MMA is about and are appreciating the technical aspects of it as well as the combat. The people who want the blood and guts may come once but are invariably disappointed and stay away or go to the boxing bouts.
I find those who invariably denigrate MMA are those who have never been to a show and judge purely from watching a couple of bouts of the UFC which frankly, while it may have started the MMA craze simply doesn't have the best fighters on these days, it has the most marketed.

 

[Kwanjang]

There are some people that know what they are doing but they are by far out weighed by those that do not and if you are talking CMA the problem here is those that REALLY know tend to not talk much or advertise much, if at all, and those that do not really know tend to yell loudly and advertise like crazy. And you also have the person that does actually "know" their style that gives into pressure and lightens things up for the all mighty dollar. So what tends to happen is the pool of "dedicated people" tends to get smaller all the time. So I do not see a resurgence of TMA I see it slowly going away. I do see a resurgence of TMA light or bastardized being called "Traditional" Martial arts.

Xue Sheng, I respectfully disagree with you on this one. TMA has survived almost two thousand years. I submitt those folks you speak of that really know what their doing will out last those that do not-(Natural selection) I feel compelled to Advertise. I have to pay the bills and eat. But I get most of my students through referrals. If you are doing a great job-your students will gladly refer you to people they know. I am glad there are Bastardized schools out there- to the effect when someone who has been to one of these "" Bastardized dojos" come in and observe our classes in session, there is a noticeable difference. In closing, TMA has indeed evolved and will continue to do so. The only constant in the univers IS change I promise I along with regulars to MT will do our best to keep hard core TMA alive.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng, I respectfully disagree with you on this one. TMA has survived almost two thousand years. I submitt those folks you speak of that really know what their doing will out last those that do not-(Natural selection) I feel compelled to Advertise. I have to pay the bills and eat. But I get most of my students through referrals. If you are doing a great job-your students will gladly refer you to people they know. I am glad there are Bastardized schools out there- to the effect when someone who has been to one of these "" Bastardized dojos" come in and observe our classes in session, there is a noticeable difference. In closing, TMA has indeed evolved and will continue to do so. The only constant in the univers IS change I promise I along with regulars to MT will do our best to keep hard core TMA alive.

No problem

Most of what I am talking about is CMA and from what I have seen, particularly in my immediate area, and some outside of my area (mostly CMA IMA schools) is the ones that really know the style they claim to teach tend not to advertise. And I have absolutely no problem with advertising; I wish the guy that was my Wing Chun Sifu would. He would have a rather successful school if he did but he does not advertise and gets just about all of his students by word of mouth. My Taiji Sifu is, from my experience, a typical older traditional CMA guy that was born, raised and trained in China and they tend to not talk about their MA outside of their piers and students. And advertising is absolutely out of the question. My much younger than my taiji Sifu, born raised and trained in China Sanda Sifu is the same way.

Yes TMA has been around for a long time and yes it is still around but are there as many qualified teachers around today as there was say 10 years ago? And although there are still good, well trained teachers out there (that do and do not advertise) they are by far fewer that those that should not be teaching or do not have a complete grasps of the style they teach or combine styles and use the name of one of them and call it something it is not.

So you have, just as an example, 10 students that learn well and say about 50% of them decide to go teach. The McDojos down the street has 100 students and 50% of them decide to go teach. You now have 5 good teacher and 50 questionable. Of the 5 you taught 1 decides that if he/she makes it easier they will have more students and make more money and now you have 4 good teachers and 51 questionable. This is of course not saying that of that 50 questionable a few will not decide they need more training and go find a good teacher and become good at what they do but it is doubtful that 25 of them will do that.

I ran into a gentleman that was very well trained in Hapkido in Korea and his son was incredible at it as well. But he gave up somewhere along the way and started teaching bad TKD his students were awful. To be honest I do not blame him for what happened but the students that he got that did not want to work at Hapkido or just wanted belts or didn’t want to get hurt or didn’t want to put in the time and then he had to make the decision train what I know and eventually loose my business or make it easier and still get paid.

My first CMA Sifu said to me once “I cannot train students here like I do in China” and the day he taught Chen Old Loajia Yilu he proved it. It started with 60 students and ended with 6 and he never ever taught another class like that again and he now teaches crap but he has a lot of students and advertises in multiple magazines were the guy down the street teaching the real Wing Chun has classes of never more than 6 and sometimes 1 in a class.

 

[teekin]

No problem

Most of what I am talking about is CMA and from what I have seen, particularly in my immediate area, and some outside of my area (mostly CMA IMA schools) is the ones that really know the style they claim to teach tend not to advertise. And I have absolutely no problem with advertising; I wish the guy that was my Wing Chun Sifu would. He would have a rather successful school if he did but he does not advertise and gets just about all of his students by word of mouth. My Taiji Sifu is, from my experience, a typical older traditional CMA guy that was born, raised and trained in China and they tend to not talk about their MA outside of their piers and students. And advertising is absolutely out of the question. My much younger than my taiji Sifu, born raised and trained in China Sanda Sifu is the same way.

Yes TMA has been around for a long time and yes it is still around but are there as many qualified teachers around today as there was say 10 years ago? And although there are still good, well trained teachers out there (that do and do not advertise) they are by far fewer that those that should not be teaching or do not have a complete grasps of the style they teach or combine styles and use the name of one of them and call it something it is not.

So you have, just as an example, 10 students that learn well and say about 50% of them decide to go teach. The McDojos down the street has 100 students and 50% of them decide to go teach. You now have 5 good teacher and 50 questionable. Of the 5 you taught 1 decides that if he/she makes it easier they will have more students and make more money and now you have 4 good teachers and 51 questionable. This is of course not saying that of that 50 questionable a few will not decide they need more training and go find a good teacher and become good at what they do but it is doubtful that 25 of them will do that.

I ran into a gentleman that was very well trained in Hapkido in Korea and his son was incredible at it as well. But he gave up somewhere along the way and started teaching bad TKD his students were awful. To be honest I do not blame him for what happened but the students that he got that did not want to work at Hapkido or just wanted belts or didn’t want to get hurt or didn’t want to put in the time and then he had to make the decision train what I know and eventually loose my business or make it easier and still get paid.

My first CMA Sifu said to me once “I cannot train students here like I do in China” and the day he taught Chen Old Loajia Yilu he proved it. It started with 60 students and ended with 6 and he never ever taught another class like that again and he now teaches crap but he has a lot of students and advertises in multiple magazines were the guy down the street teaching the real Wing Chun has classes of never more than 6 and sometimes 1 in a class.

Quality over Quantity. I bet if you asked the guy down the street who has the 1 student who works his *** off if he would trade the 1 dedicated student for the 60 posers you get decided NO! You have to winnow through 100 tons of slag to find 1 diamond. I believe it's worth the effort.
Lori

 

[Xue Sheng]

Quality over Quantity. I bet if you asked the guy down the street who has the 1 student who works his *** off if he would trade the 1 dedicated student for the 60 posers you get decided NO! You have to winnow through 100 tons of slag to find 1 diamond. I believe it's worth the effort.
Lori

True and I would much rather see quality not quantity but sadly there is little quality but there is quantity.

But in some cases word of mouth gets you in trouble too. My Taiji sifu when I started we were a small group of not more than about 6 and as people talked more came but few stayed, Taiji is not a martial art you know and we were training martial arts. Now (13 years later) his advanced class is about a dozen but all of us that were there in the beginning are now gone and I have been labeled disruptive by his current students (although sifu does not know this yet and I am not quite sure if I should approach him with it or not) but you see I still believe taiji is a martial art and I believe that Tuishou is very important but they want to do forms, talk a bit and go home. He does not advertise and the class is still small, twice what it once was but still small, but there is no longer quality in the students that are there. He would teach it if they wanted it, they just don't want it.

As for the man that was my Wing Chun sifu he trains hard and it hurts early in the training so posers don't stay long.

 

[Unkogami]

There is a reason why TMA have survived for this long and that rerason is because it IS effective in real combat.

That is not necessarily so. Not that TMA are not effective, but being around for a long time is not proof of effectiveness.

 

[Unkogami]

Until these type events start showing fighters from a TMA background .

Well, there's nothing stopping them.

 

[Unkogami]

I find those who invariably denigrate MMA are those who have never been to a show .

I think some folks want to see MMA competition that looks like the forms and drills in whatever their TMA is. A real fight just ain't gonna look like that, so they are never likely to be satisfied.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Well, there's nothing stopping them.

No, and the good MMA fighters generally have a strong background in one or more TMA, be it taekwondo, jujustu, or something else. I'm hardly an MMA authority, but I do read some of the fighter bios here and there, and nearly all the ones that I recall had the majority of their training in one art, with training in others to round them out.

Daniel

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think some folks want to see MMA competition that looks like the forms and drills in whatever their TMA is. A real fight just ain't gonna look like that, so they are never likely to be satisfied.

A real fight in TMA doen't look like that either.

 

[JadeDragon3]

That is not necessarily so. Not that TMA are not effective, but being around for a long time is not proof of effectiveness.

To some extent it is true. If it didn't work people would not do it and it would eventually be forgotten over the years. Why else would a martial art still be around?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think some folks want to see MMA competition that looks like the forms and drills in whatever their TMA is. A real fight just ain't gonna look like that, so they are never likely to be satisfied.

Nor will it look like MMA. Competative MMA isn't a real fight, regardless of how its promoted.

Daniel

 

[Unkogami]

Nor will it look like MMA.

It will look a heck of a lot more like that than anything you are likely to see at a forms competition or a TMA demo.

 

[Unkogami]

Why else would a martial art still be around?

As a cultural practice, as a way of connecting to history, as a form of self-identification. Lots of reasons.

 

[Tez3]

It will look a heck of a lot more like that than anything you are likely to see at a forms competition or a TMA demo.

Ah but you should see the way we fight TMA, full contact karate, wonderful!!
If you watch a lot of MMA you will learn to see many moves from kata! Iain Abernethy is the best person to learn from where Bunkai and fighting is concerned.

 

[Unkogami]

A real fight in TMA doen't look like that either.

Unfortunately, too many will never know that.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Unfortunately, too many will never know that.

Well to be honest, I can't argue that point because I agree.