Is grappling better for female self defense than striking?

[Flying Crane]

The better outcome is not relying on a third party to save the day (and getting a cash reward for choking out a rapist).

Troll.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Allow me to introduce to you Takanoyama Shuntaro :

A light weight person may defeat a heavy weight person, but that's exception case and not normal case. This is why the weight division is used in wrestling. In the grappling art, the weight will play more important rule than in the striking art. Again, a proper groin kick may end the fight which may have noting to do with the body weight.

 

[jezr74]

What level of proficiency is required (speculatively) to be considered able to effectively position and complete triangle chokes?

If an art was to introduce this as a part of their syllabus, at what point do you introduce it, is there an age or maturity that's needed?

 

[Steve]

A light weight person may defeat a heavy weight person, but that's exception case and not normal case. This is why the weight division is used in wrestling. In the grappling art, the weight will play more important rule than in the striking art. Again, a proper groin kick may end the fight which may have noting to do with the body weight.

Well... this isn't exactly true. Wrestling and other competitions have weight classes because the goal of competition is to level the playing field in the spirit of equity and fairness. It's not because little guys can't beat big guys, although size and strength can certainly be an advantage.

 

[Steve]

What level of proficiency is required (speculatively) to be considered able to effectively position and complete triangle chokes?

If an art was to introduce this as a part of their syllabus, at what point do you introduce it, is there an age or maturity that's needed?

It's introduced typically at the white belt level. Very basic submission.

Really, the only things that are treated with particular care in BJJ are often the leg locks and the neck cranks. The former, because damage to the joint can occur before pain encourages a tap. In other words, if you don't know the danger you're in, you may not tap until lasting damage has occurred. In contract, your elbow hurts a lot BEFORE ligaments are torn or the joint is dislocated. The knee or ankle could pop in a very bad way before you really feel pain. Neck cranks are just dangerous. I know a black belt whose neck was broken by a student because he was being stubborn and didn't open his guard to a can opener. He is okay, thank goodness, but he's a lot more careful now.

Kids are allowed to perform triangle chokes, but are not allowed to pull down on the head, as it puts pressure on the neck/spine. Children are typically prohibited from using any technique that does this, including the guillotine choke, ezekiels, using a can opener to open guard, pulling on the head for a triangle choke, etc are off limits.

 

[drop bear]

She successfully fended off an attack until help arrived.



I hoist her up as someone who was lucky that someone came to her aid. In that sense, she is a success. If your trotting her out as a martial arts expert who successfully stopped an attack with her training, I don't agree.



Well that must speak quite a bit towards your judgement and eyesight, since I never defined her as a failure.

That is how real fights work. If a third party comes in all the better. That is still a win.

 

[Hanzou]

That is how real fights work. If a third party comes in all the better. That is still a win.

With 15 years of martial arts experience, such assistance shouldn't have been necessary.

But then again, she probably didn't know any chokes or joint locks. Would have made a strong compliment to her striking.

 

[drop bear]

With 15 years of martial arts experience, such assistance shouldn't have been necessary.

But then again, she probably didn't know any chokes or joint locks. Would have made a strong compliment to her striking.

Why? I could possibly towel up a 15 year bjjer half my size from ambush.

I know guys who have done it in the ring.

I don't agree with this should business. It is silly talk.

 

[Hanzou]

Why? I could possibly towel up a 15 year bjjer half my size from ambush.

I know guys who have done it in the ring.

I don't agree with this should business. It is silly talk.

Well yes, because you have years of grappling experience. The average predator does not. Furthermore, a woman with Bjj or some other form of grappling experience would be use to grappling individuals much larger than herself who also happen to be excellent grapplers.

Why do you think we have examples of women choking out men with triangle chokes with no outside assistance? Meanwhile this girl was hitting this guy with everything she had, and it didn't cease the attack.

Why? Frankly she couldn't generate the necessary force to incapacitate him because of her weaker physiology. After all that pummeling, he was still able to get away. A choke simply doesn't require that level of power.

I'm quite happy that the young woman is okay, but if she were my daughter, she'd be signing up for MMA or Bjj immediately. I wouldn't want her life to depend on the kindness of strangers.

 

[drop bear]

Well yes, because you have years of grappling experience. The average predator does not. Furthermore, a woman with Bjj or some other form of grappling experience would be use to grappling individuals much larger than herself who also happen to be excellent grapplers.

Why do you think we have examples of women choking out men with triangle chokes with no outside assistance? Meanwhile this girl was hitting this guy with everything she had, and it didn't cease the attack.

Why? Frankly she couldn't generate the necessary force to incapacitate him because of her weaker physiology. After all that pummeling, he was still able to get away. A choke simply doesn't require that level of power.

I'm quite happy that the young woman is okay, but if she were my daughter, she'd be signing up for MMA or Bjj immediately. I wouldn't want her life to depend on the kindness of strangers.

An attacker with its completely vague description may have advantages that can overcome a 15 year bjj black belt. So when we are comparing three different attackers in three different situations it becomes hard to get such a conclusive argument.

Otherwise knowing quality striking and grappling can be endorsed just on the reasoning that you can employ a greater range of defence. And we don't have to play the what if game so much.

 

[drop bear]

And it is not hard to find a decisive use of striking ing self defence.

Female karate champion defeats mugger - Telegraph

 

[Hanzou]

An attacker with its completely vague description may have advantages that can overcome a 15 year bjj black belt.

Well sure, but who's better off? The woman who spent 15 years grappling and ground and pounding men larger than herself, or the woman who spent 15 years breaking boards and winning kata competitions?

And it is not hard to find a decisive use of striking ing self defence.

Female karate champion defeats mugger - Telegraph

So she knocks the mugger down and runs to a police station.

Impressive.....

 

[drop bear]

Well sure, but who's better off? The woman who spent 15 years grappling and ground and pounding men larger than herself, or the woman who spent 15 years breaking boards and winning kata competitions?



So she knocks the mugger down and runs to a police station.

Impressive.....

We are moving from grappling vs striking. Which I think is a silly distinction because you can do both. To alive training vs dead drilling. Which again you should do both.

And the police return to find the mugger still there. All beat up. Which is impressive.

 

[jezr74]

With 15 years of martial arts experience, such assistance shouldn't have been necessary.
But then again, she probably didn't know any chokes or joint locks. Would have made a strong compliment to her striking.

They attacker may have been a grappling grand master for all we know. Sounds like it since he kept trying to take her to the ground.

 

[Hanzou]

We are moving from grappling vs striking. Which I think is a silly distinction because you can do both. To alive training vs dead drilling. . Which again you should do both.

Really? We don't break boards or do Katas and we get along just fine.

And the police return to find the mugger still there. All beat up. Which is impressive.

Your embellishing. She hit him, knocked him down and ran for the nearest police station. It's simply not the same as a woman who choked someone unconscious, fully capable of ending his life if she chooses to do so.

 

[drop bear]

Really? We don't break boards or do Katas and we get along just fine.



Your embellishing. She hit him, knocked him down and ran for the nearest police station. It's simply not the same as a woman who choked someone unconscious, fully capable of ending his life if she chooses to do so.

Getting along just fine doesn't count unless you are aiming for mediocrity. Everybody does dead drills. Some specific to the environment. As soon as you think you have the best method. That is when you become the tma that does not reach its full potential.

We are both embellishing. There is what happened and then there is what might have happened.

 

[Hanzou]

Getting along just fine doesn't count unless you are aiming for mediocrity. Everybody does dead drills. Some specific to the environment. As soon as you think you have the best method. That is when you become the tma that does not reach its full potential.

Who said we didn't do dead drills? I said we don't break boards or do kata. Not all dead drills are created equal.

We are both embellishing. There is what happened and then there is what might have happened.

That's not embellishing. Embellishing is when you trump up what actually occurred to make someone look better. For example, saying the girl in the OP had the upper hand when all the evidence says otherwise. Or saying the woman in your article "beat the guy up" when it just says she socked him and grabbed a cop.

I suppose I simply hold martial artists to a higher standard. ::shrug::

 

[K-man]

Meanwhile this girl was hitting this guy with everything she had, and it didn't cease the attack.

Why? Frankly she couldn't generate the necessary force to incapacitate him because of her weaker physiology. After all that pummeling, he was still able to get away. A choke simply doesn't require that level of power.

As has been pointed out many times, that is simply not true. You can refer back to the OP but you cannot ignore the other reports. I would suggest that she did just fine with the tools she used and you have no idea what grappling skills she has.

I'm quite happy that the young woman is okay, but if she were my daughter, she'd be signing up for MMA or Bjj immediately. I wouldn't want her life to depend on the kindness of strangers.

Kindness of strangers? BS! You know that wasn't the case here, so stop trying to twist the truth.

If she was my daughter, and I was concerned only about her ability to defend herself, I most certainly would not be signing her up for BJJ or MMA. There are better options available and none of them, that is zero, would advocate intentionally going to the ground.

 

[drop bear]

Who said we didn't do dead drills? I said we don't break boards or do kata. Not all dead drills are created equal.



That's not embellishing. Embellishing is when you trump up what actually occurred to make someone look better. For example, saying the girl in the OP had the upper hand when all the evidence says otherwise. Or saying the woman in your article "beat the guy up" when it just says she socked him and grabbed a cop.

I suppose I simply hold martial artists to a higher standard. ::shrug::

Breaking boards and doing kata is part of some quality fighters training regime. I don't skip. I do fine without it. Others do skip and do fine with it. So is skipping vital or unnecessary?

And the answer depends on the person and the overall training methods.

So for example if you wanted to train with our local karate champion. You would have to do kata as part of your training method. It is important to him and he is better at karate than you.

Simple evidence based method.

If you don't do kata and beat him up. Then your method has merit.

Embellishing is saying that a person could have done something they did not do. Or that the outcome would have followed your prescribed scenario.

What happened. Happened. Some people got held off. Some people got beat up and some got choked out. You cant keep mixing and matching trying to make some sort of point from these events unless you are embellishing.

 

[Hanzou]

As has been pointed out many times, that is simply not true. You can refer back to the OP but you cannot ignore the other reports. I would suggest that she did just fine with the tools she used and you have no idea what grappling skills she has.

Who said she didn't do "fine"? I think she followed standard self defense procedure very well when you're in a situation out of your control.

Kindness of strangers? BS! You know that wasn't the case here, so stop trying to twist the truth.

The third party scared the attacker off. The situation could have been much different if the passerby completely ignored her screams for help.

If she was my daughter, and I was concerned only about her ability to defend herself, I most certainly would not be signing her up for BJJ or MMA. There are better options available and none of them, that is zero, would advocate intentionally going to the ground.

And you'd be setting her up for a situation just like the girl in the OP. Unfortunately, you can't depend on a passerby' coming to your aid all the time. There's plenty of women who screamed for help, and no one came to their rescue.