Is grappling better for female self defense than striking?

[Hanzou]

We have an instance in the karate girl. And someone did come and help. So as a method I would suggest it has merit.

How exactly would someone be scared off by a third party if you have control of the situation?

 

[jezr74]

Would you be saying the same thing if the karate person was male?

 

[K-man]

So pretty much everyone is lying unless they go with your version of events?

No. You lie in that you ignore any reports that don't back your version of events. In this case all the more recent reports say that the young lady was in control when help arrived. The guy who arrived did not rescue the lady as you try to twist it. You also talk about her screaming, an emotive term, when in fact she was yelling. A subtle difference but important in the context where self defence training would teach her to yell.

Me? I haven't a dog in this fight but it annoys me when you deliberately misrepresent the facts. I read at least another dozen later reports of the incident and none of them mention screaming. Even if they did, would that really matter. Either way an attacker doesn't want to have others drawn to the scene by noise, hence the advice to yell as loud as you can.

Why yes. I personally don't believe that individual arts have all the answers. This is especially the case with archaic arts that don't evolve with the times, and tend to believe that they had all of the answers way back in the day. I personally wouldn't recommend either Aikido or Goju for self defense, but, I think that they're better combined than they are separated.

Well it is obvious you don't read posts very well. I haven't combined Aikido and Karate at all. I studied Aikido, and still study Aikido, to better understand the techniques already in my Goju Karate.

Archaic Arts? Wresting, boxing, judo, ju jutsu, etc. are all older than Karate.

When I say "MMA", I'm simply saying mixed martial arts. Not the sport itself, but the combining of individual styles into something new. For example, if I ever decided to combine Karate with Bjj and teach it as a unified style, I would be teaching a mixed martial art, much like Lyoto Machida's style of karate.

In that case I don't teach MMA in my karate class but maybe I do teach a very watered down version in the Krav. Then again, by your definition I am not teaching something new. The trouble is, with Krav, they take the best of everything so technically, although it contains bits from everywhere, is it MMA or Krav? As Steve says, you are deliberately muddying the waters. How many MMA gyms teach weapon disarms or even the use of weapons? Does that mean that the training in an MMA gym is not real MMA because they don't do weapons or multiple attackers?

 

[K-man]

The thing with mma is that why you don't like it is different to the context here.

Mma train striking. So if anybody is suggesting mma for self defence they are suggesting striking for self defence.

Yes they also train grappling but that is kind of what I was suggesting at about post two.

The rest is off topic so I will leave that alone.

Not sure what the first sentence is supposed to mean but I have no problem with people training MMA. However, if someone particularly wanted to train something for SD I would recommend Krav over MMA any day because Krav is training for that exact situation.

 

[K-man]

It just seems weird that you would be screaming for help while you're beating the crap out of someone or choking them. I can't remember a single instance where I've ever seen that happen. Typically, the person catching the beat down is the one screaming for help.

Perhaps you could give us an example of the attacker screaming for help if that is 'typical'.

Oh and who, apart from the first report, said she was screaming for help? Are you aware that yelling is part of SD training?

 

[K-man]

One of my old training partners was a cop and he could sustain a steady chorus of "Please don't hurt me! Help! Let me go!" while he "accidentally" stumbled in to his opponent with unobtrusive elbow shots, knees, and trips.

Exactly, especially with all the CCTV stuff around.

 

[elder999]

Archaic Arts? Wresting, boxing, judo, ju jutsu, etc. are all older than Karate.

Gotta correct this a little.....judo isn't really "older than karate."

However, I guess we gotta call wrestling and boxing "traditional..."

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MT Moderator-

 

[K-man]

Gotta correct this a little.....judo isn't really "older than karate."

However, I guess we gotta call wrestling and boxing "traditional..."

Well ... If anything a line ball. Judo, early 1880s. Karate into Japan early 1900s. Grey area, when did karate in Okinawa become 'karate'?

 

[elder999]

Well ... If anything a line ball. Judo, early 1880s. Karate into Japan early 1900s. Grey area, when did karate in Okinawa become 'karate'?

The first known use of the term tudi, or "China Hand," which is what kara-te also means, was by Sakukawa Kanga in 1806-he was Matsumara's teacher.Matsumara went on to teach Itosu Anko, who went on to teach pretty much everybody....all before "judo" was formalized in 1882. In fact, the Naha-te, from which your own Goju was founded, was itself founded in 1881-when the terms tudi, te, and kara te were already in use.
just sayin'.....

 

[K-man]

The first known use of the term tudi, or "China Hand," which is what kara-te also means, was by Sakukawa Kanga in 1806-he was Matsumara's teacher.Matsumara went on to teach Itosu Anko, who went on to teach pretty much everybody....all before "judo" was formalized in 1882. In fact, the Naha-te, from which your own Goju was founded, was itself founded in 1881-when the terms tudi, te, and kara te were already in use.
just sayin'.....

Maybe, maybe not. In the early days it was 'Te' or 'Tode' or variations thereof. Even after Sakukawa Kanga instructed Matsumura, Mutsumura founded Shuri-te. I thought the term kara-te came about a little later, but really, we are discussing semantics. It was just the archaic bit that got to me.

 

[drop bear]

Would you be saying the same thing if the karate person was male?

Male makes it easy by the way because then you could bring up this trend of pensioner boxers who are mad keen for beating the tar out of young criminals.

 

[Hanzou]

Would you be saying the same thing if the karate person was male?

Why wouldn't I? A guy screaming for help, attacker flees only when someone else appears on the scene, male ends up with bruised ribs and gashed head.

I would say he should probably bring some grappling into his game.

 

[Hanzou]

Perhaps you could give us an example of the attacker screaming for help if that is 'typical'.

I didn't say attacker, I said the person catching the beat down.

Oh and who, apart from the first report, said she was screaming for help? Are you aware that yelling is part of SD training?

So are you insuinating that the first article made that part up?

And yeah, I'm aware that people scream for help when in danger. This is the first time I'm hearing about screaming for help to avoid getting arrested for beating the crap out of someone.

 

[Zero]

If I have the situation under control, why would I be screaming for help?

Different strokes for different situations of course. I am not sure if you have had any SD training or been in a SD situation or an out of tournament fight...maybe you have?

For example, I have been taught in my specific self defence training, (ie, not "judo as SD", not "bjj as SD", not "karate as SD" but specific self defence focused training (such as avoidance/awareness/de-escalation/legal considerations/advisable action to take after a confrontation, etc) that it may be, again on a case-by-case basis, advisable to make an audible show/demonstration while in a situation/altercation that you assess as may be going South. Such as having your hands at the ready but in a non-hostile manner, ie hands up but palms out in a placatory gesture and saying "hey, leave me alone, sorry buddy, I don't want to fight/I don't want any trouble, etc" and as the bum comes in you pop him one and put him on his can. When you find yourself embroiled in the ensuing legal system and looking for witness corroborations etc, these things can help. This came from LEOs and a professional SD instructor that trains LEOS and security personnel and civilians, it also just plain makes sense.

It is just common sense for a female (and here I actually mean anyone, male or female) before (if she is aware of an imminent oncoming threat) and during a confrontation to yell out and shout for help to the extent possible.

In addition, if you have someone under control but not knocked out, ie immobilised by a lock/choke, why would you not call for help? Or are you going to (i) stay in that position for, like, ever or (ii) get up and hope the assailant is not going to try anything again and you'll just both call it quits and walk off your separate ways (with the assailant of course having a new found appreciation and respect of your macho/all male fighting bad-*** ability)...you may have SD training or experience Hanzou but sometimes your comments seem to indicate you have no real world experience on this matter and have not gleaned any knowledge on such from others that have...

 

[drop bear]

Why wouldn't I? A guy screaming for help, attacker flees only when someone else appears on the scene, male ends up with bruised ribs and gashed head.

I would say he should probably bring some grappling into his game.

Look absolutely you should have some grappling as part of your self defence tool box. I am not sure why you would need to make the choice.

For self defence I would suggest that before you become the worlds most competent grappler. Become a functional striker. It absolutely enhances your grappling.

 

[drop bear]

I didn't say attacker, I said the person catching the beat down.



So are you insuinating that the first article made that part up?

And yeah, I'm aware that people scream for help when in danger. This is the first time I'm hearing about screaming for help to avoid getting arrested for beating the crap out of someone.

It doesn't cost you anything to do. And it may help. So why wouldn't you do it. Regardless if you are winning or loosing.

Calling for help and the the effect it may have.

I mean why not?

 

[Hanzou]

Different strokes for different situations of course. I am not sure if you have had any SD training or been in a SD situation or an out of tournament fight...maybe you have?

For example, I have been taught in my specific self defence training, (ie, not "judo as SD", not "bjj as SD", not "karate as SD" but specific self defence focused training (such as avoidance/awareness/de-escalation/legal considerations/advisable action to take after a confrontation, etc) that it may be, again on a case-by-case basis, advisable to make an audible show/demonstration while in a situation/altercation that you assess as may be going South. Such as having your hands at the ready but in a non-hostile manner, ie hands up but palms out in a placatory gesture and saying "hey, leave me alone, sorry buddy, I don't want to fight/I don't want any trouble, etc" and as the bum comes in you pop him one and put him on his can. When you find yourself embroiled in the ensuing legal system and looking for witness corroborations etc, these things can help. This came from LEOs and a professional SD instructor that trains LEOS and security personnel and civilians, it also just plain makes sense.

Yes I've received that type of training, and that's different than yelling for help while controlling someone.

In addition, if you have someone under control but not knocked out, ie immobilised by a lock/choke, why would you not call for help? Or are you going to (i) stay in that position for, like, ever or (ii) get up and hope the assailant is not going to try anything again and you'll just both call it quits and walk off your separate ways (with the assailant of course having a new found appreciation and respect of your macho/all male fighting bad-*** ability)...you may have SD training or experience Hanzou but sometimes your comments seem to indicate you have no real world experience on this matter and have not gleaned any knowledge on such from others that have...

Uh, why wouldn't I just immobilize them? If I have someone under control, and I still feel that they're a threat, why not simply remove the threat?

And yeah, I've been in my fair share of scraps, but I've never screamed for help while I was fighting someone. Beforehand, I have put my hands up and told people to back off, leave me alone, yadda, yadda......

But scream for help while I'm beating the crap out of someone? Never.

 

[Zero]

I didn't say attacker, I said the person catching the beat down.



So are you insuinating that the first article made that part up?

And yeah, I'm aware that people scream for help when in danger. This is the first time I'm hearing about screaming for help to avoid getting arrested for beating the crap out of someone.

If it's the first time you have heard of it, are you saying that somehow makes it less valid or relevant? Plenty of things I have only heard of for the first time and they turned out pretty sound.
...I am not envisioning some dude sitting on top of some fella and bashing the living socks out of him and while raining down his blows screaming in a high pitched voice "help me, someone, please help me! His face is hurting my hand! I can't stop hitting this poor guy! Make it stop!!!" That would be kinda sick/wrong (although possibly funny). : )

 

[Zero]

Yes I've received that type of training, and that's different than yelling for help while controlling someone.



Uh, why wouldn't I just immobilize them? If I have someone under control, and I still feel that they're a threat, why not simply remove the threat?

And yeah, I've been in my fair share of scraps, but I've never screamed for help while I was fighting someone. Beforehand, I have put my hands up and told people to back off, leave me alone, yadda, yadda......

But scream for help while I'm beating the crap out of someone? Never.

Seems like we're on the same page then on that one then about "screaming".

Although I don't understand what you mean when you say: "If I have someone under control, and I still feel that they're a threat, why not simply remove the threat?" Are you seeing and defining "control" as different to "remove"? There is certainly a big difference in my book! If so, if you are already in a choke/submission, which is "control" - what do you mean by remove?