Is grappling better for female self defense than striking?

[Brian R. VanCise]

I would agree with Flying Crane that this lady is a success story. She fought, she survived and now she gets to go on and live here life. What more could we want? That is success in this personal protection confrontation.

 

[Hanzou]

And yet none of this has anything to do with your thread because these statements have nothing to do with the young woman in question. She successfully defended herself. That is the end of the story.

She successfully fended off an attack until help arrived.

Whether or not there are other black belts who cannot, is immaterial to this young woman. You keep hoisting her up as an example of failure. But she is not. She is an example of success, regardless of what method she trains.

I hoist her up as someone who was lucky that someone came to her aid. In that sense, she is a success. If your trotting her out as a martial arts expert who successfully stopped an attack with her training, I don't agree.

If you cannot see that, then you are blind. That you continually define her as a failure tells me you are ignorant, or a liar. My judgement tells me you are both.

Well that must speak quite a bit towards your judgement and eyesight, since I never defined her as a failure.

 

[jezr74]

Well, here's an example of grappling fails;

We can compare technique to technique here. These techniques fail because they contain fundamental flaws which make them unworkable. There are sound ways to pass the guard, or counter the guard with a leglock, and neither of those examples above accomplish that goal.

Usually, you encounter grappling fails in arts attempting to counter wrestling or Bjj. The standard of Grappling arts tend to have a higher standard than your typical Kung fu, karate, or TKD school.

This is why discussing rank is important. A practitioner on the skill level of that woman in the first vid MA fails vid would be allowed to teach in a karate or TKD school. A person of that skill level would never make it out of white belt range in a Bjj school.

It's also important because there are millions of practitioners such as those shown in those vids who have a false level of security because they received a fraudulent black belt.

Your comparing skills of a practitioner of a grappling art to a grappling add-on to a striking style style?

I'm lost, I thought you were comparing a strike effectiveness to a grapple technique effectiveness. So I wanted to know what you consider a shortcoming within your own art, vs. something effective so I can keep it in perspective within the same style. I can then get an idea of what your comparing.

I just can't see the point of looking at failures in non related arts for the purpose of what we are talking about. (But it's also gone off topic, so can drop it for a rainy day)

 

[Flying Crane]

She successfully fended off an attack until help arrived.



I hoist her up as someone who was lucky that someone came to her aid. In that sense, she is a success. If your trotting her out as a martial arts expert who successfully stopped an attack with her training, I don't agree.



Well that must speak quite a bit towards your judgement and eyesight, since I never defined her as a failure.

More spin. But hey, it's you.

 

[Hanzou]

Your comparing skills of a practitioner of a grappling art to a grappling add-on to a striking style style?

I'm lost, I thought you were comparing a strike effectiveness to a grapple technique effectiveness. So I wanted to know what you consider a shortcoming within your own art, vs. something effective so I can keep it in perspective within the same style. I can then get an idea of what your comparing.

I just can't see the point of looking at failures in non related arts for the purpose of what we are talking about. (But it's also gone off topic, so can drop it for a rainy day)

Well frankly you're not going to find a clip like that Bjj. The training style of that art simply won't allow it. You can pretend in striking arts like Karate or TKD. You can't pretend like that in Bjj. It simply isn't possible. Especially with the sheer level of sparring that is inherent in the art.

Which brings us back to the OP; The woman couldn't generate enough power in her strikes to incapacitate her attacker, and it was a bystander that ended up making the attacker flee. Just like that woman in the clip couldn't generate enough power to break a board. Has she ever knocked someone out with a reverse punch? Doubtful. Has she ever smashed ribs with a side kick? Nope. It's all theory, and very little application.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Frankly, a 150 lb person trading blows with a 250 lb person seems like suicide. They're are football players who are 250lb, and they're not slow people by any stretch of the imagination.

Fighting someone who outweighs you by 100 pounds is rough whether you're striking or grappling. Here's a nice example of someone doing it successfully in a striking context:

I've trained at 5 different BJJ schools in my time studying grappling.

Including Matt Bryers video on his post here, I've seen 2 schools or gyms that have their BJJ guys do any kind of drill prepping them for someone physically striking them.

This is everything from Gracie schools to MMA gyms.

Unless theyre BJJ guys are competing in MMA or taking the MMA class, it isnt something I've ever regularly seen outside of a Relson Gracie school where the head instructor is an ex cop.

While I've done more Newaza at open mats, grappling schools/classes, etc. I've done more drills of getting up from someone wailing on me at SD seminars and my TSD class.

You keep saying that, but again, I've been to quite a few schools and met many many grapplers, 2 of which have strong ties to gracies (ones a relson academy) and very, very few never did it. The only ones who had any kind of grappling training against a ground and pound where the guys who competed in MMA.

Yeah, BJJ is evolving in some divergent directions at the moment. Sport schools that just focus on pure competitive grappling at the expense of training against strikes are more common than not. Of those schools that do cover working against strikes, many relegate it to the MMA classes. At my gym, I'm the only instructor who regularly covers the topic in pure BJJ classes.

From my standpoint, this is not a great development, but everybody trains for their own reasons. The art will move in whatever direction(s) it does based on the collective decisions of many different people seeking their own goals.

Despite the common belief around here, I only discuss Bjj when it pertains to the topic of the thread. I don't interject Bjj when the thread doesn't warrant it.

I think the problem is that when something comes from a Bjj or MMA perspective, some traditional stylists have a sort of inferiority complex and feel that the Bjj or MMA practitioner is attacking their style.

Speaking as a BJJ practitioner ... it does seem to me that you spend rather a lot of your time attacking any style that isn't BJJ, Judo, Sombo, wrestling, boxing, or Muay Thai. I don't think the "traditional" stylists here are imagining these attacks out of some sort of inferiority complex.

I also have opinions about what training methods work well and which ones don't. Many of those opinions probably overlap with yours. That doesn't mean I need to constantly barge into threads about other arts and tell practitioners of those arts how much their arts suck. (Or start threads about how much their arts suck.)

Which is strange since the belt after blue is instructor level.....

Well ... it's not as if there is any sort of universal official rule about what belt qualifies as instructor level in BJJ. If there is a demand for your instruction, then you can teach.

My first regular (non-seminar) classes in BJJ were with Jorge Gurgel back when he was a blue belt - and the highest ranking BJJ practitioner in the area. These days there are a lot more higher-level practitioners around, so you won't find as many blue belts teaching. In another ten years, you probably won't see as many purple belts teaching, because there will be more black belts available.

I find it interesting that this young lady's story keeps changing, and keeps making her look more and more in control of the situation. I suppose the first iteration didn't shine a very favorable light on her 15 years of martial arts training.

That said, I'm sticking to the version of events presented in the article posted in the OP. Not the latter articles which seems to point to her trying to save face.

Maybe the young lady was barely surviving and was about to get beaten down when help arrived.
Maybe the young lady was winning and was about to finish off her attacker when help arrived.
Maybe it was an even fight and the outcome was uncertain when help arrived.

None of us was there, so none of us knows. I would strongly caution against any of us choosing which details of which account we are willing to believe, just because they support a narrative in line with our personal prejudices.

 

[Buka]

I first trained in BJJ in the early 90s. From day one it included strikes we did in stand-up, altered/tweaked to work on the ground with our developing grappling skills. It might not have been pure BJJ as some know it, but it was darn good BJJ as we got to know it.

Still is, too.

 

[Hanzou]

Maybe the young lady was barely surviving and was about to get beaten down when help arrived.
Maybe the young lady was winning and was about to finish off her attacker when help arrived.
Maybe it was an even fight and the outcome was uncertain when help arrived.

None of us was there, so none of us knows. I would strongly caution against any of us choosing which details of which account we are willing to believe, just because they support a narrative in line with our personal prejudices.

Again, I'm basing everything I've stated in this thread on the article in the OP. I find it bizarre that someone would be screaming for help, and the attacker would only flee when he saw a third party come onto the scene if she "had him on the ropes", or was about to "finish him off". The latter accounts seem more like face-saving than anything else, because the original article didn't paint a good picture of her MA training.

 

[Flying Crane]

Anyway, Hanzou, what are you trying to accomplish? Convince us all to quit what we do and go do bjj instead? Just because you say we should? Seriously, what is it you are trying to accomplish?

I'm still waiting for an answer on this. Hanzou, what is it? Do you have an answer or are you just a troll?

 

[Jenna]

..since there are several women with black belts in certain styles who can't fight their way out of a paper bag.

I am reasonably confident I could fight my way out of a paper bag. Then again *plastic* bags are different.. everyone knows they are a choke hazard.. Mind you.. if I were BJJ trained would I be able to deal with the choke from a *plastic* bag? All is becoming clearer.. it is an epiphany for me! Jx

 

[Hanzou]

I'm still waiting for an answer on this. Hanzou, what is it? Do you have an answer or are you just a troll?

Simply discussing the positives and negatives of a female practitioner utilizing a striking style or a grappling style in a SD situation.

 

[Flying Crane]

Simply discussing the positives and negatives of a female practitioner utilizing a striking style or a grappling style in a SD situation.

Troll

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Fighting someone who outweighs you by 100 pounds is rough whether you're striking or grappling.

In the grappling art, you just don't see small Sumo guy can have any chance to win. Can a small light weight girl be able to win against a big heavy Sumo guy? I don't think so.

On the other hand, a proper groin kick may end a fight quickly which may not have anything to do with "size".

 

[jezr74]

Well frankly you're not going to find a clip like that Bjj. The training style of that art simply won't allow it. You can pretend in striking arts like Karate or TKD. You can't pretend like that in Bjj. It simply isn't possible. Especially with the sheer level of sparring that is inherent in the art.

I'll leave this alone. Just reminds me of the old saying "To a hammer, everything is a nail"

Which brings us back to the OP; The woman couldn't generate enough power in her strikes to incapacitate her attacker, and it was a bystander that ended up making the attacker flee. Just like that woman in the clip couldn't generate enough power to break a board. Has she ever knocked someone out with a reverse punch? Doubtful. Has she ever smashed ribs with a side kick? Nope. It's all theory, and very little application.

I re-read the article, she was attacked getting her injuries, then she used her skills and caused bleeding to the attacker, she then went on (rather than disengage) attacking him. I would read this as clear successful self defense. When the second person arrived, he was "scared" off.

Speculatively, It's almost like she was trying to keep him there until people arrived that might be able to apprehend him, hard to say. But in her case, having her skill set worked, grappling may have been detrimental to the outcome if she had tried it.

As for your original question for striking vs. grappling. I think personally you should have both equally. I can see having grappling skills would be incredibly beneficial along with striking skills. Where you have commented on striking power, it could have equally be a body slam from close quarters I guess.

But I think just the nature of predatory attacks that can occur, grappling ability is a must if you want to cover all your bases.

 

[elder999]

Again, I'm basing everything I've stated in this thread on the article in the OP. I find it bizarre that someone would be screaming for help.

"Screaming for help," is part of self-defense, when it's taught properly-under the best of circumstances, a person defending themselves might be screaming for help the entire time, even until they disabled their attacker.....not really addressing the rest of your line of thinking, but I had to point this out-and, point out as well that there are quite a few grapplers on this thread who don't agree with your premise, and that you might do better considering what we've said than posting the equivalent of La, lal, la, I'm not listening to you, grappling is the best thing for the str33tz! with your "fingers jammed into your ears"

As for the story in the OP, we'll never really know the exact circumstances, but they boil down to her being successful-she didn't get raped, she didn't die-she screamed for help, and help came she fended off her attacker, even if she didn't put him to sleep, snap his arm, or simply hold him (submit) until help arrived.....don't see how there could have been a better outcome? Seriously-what is it that you're trying to say would have been a better outcome if she'd had grappling skills and used them exclusively?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In the grappling art, you just don't see small Sumo guy can have any chance to win. Can a small light weight girl be able to win against a big heavy Sumo guy? I don't think so.

On the other hand, a proper groin kick may end a fight quickly which may not have anything to do with "size".

Allow me to introduce to you Takanoyama Shuntaro :

 

[elder999]

Allow me to introduce to you Takanoyama Shuntaro :

Beat me to it!

 

[Hanzou]

"Screaming for help," is part of self-defense, when it's taught properly-under the best of circumstances, a person defending themselves might be screaming for help the entire time, even until they disabled their attacker.....not really addressing the rest of your line of thinking, but I had to point this out-and, point out as well that there are quite a few grapplers on this thread who don't agree with your premise, and that you might do better considering what we've said than posting the equivalent of La, lal, la, I'm not listening to you, grappling is the best thing for the str33tz! with your "fingers jammed into your ears"

As for the story in the OP, we'll never really know the exact circumstances, but they boil down to her being successful-she didn't get raped, she didn't die-she screamed for help, and help came she fended off her attacker, even if she didn't put him to sleep, snap his arm, or simply hold him (submit) until help arrived.....don't see how there could have been a better outcome? Seriously-what is it that you're trying to say would have been a better outcome if she'd had grappling skills and used them exclusively?

Woman triangle chokes attacker unconscious judge awards her 500 - Bloody Elbow

Female US Navy Sailor Puts Rapist To Sleep With Triangle Choke In Dubai Bjj Eastern Europe

Better outcomes.

Also I should note that I'm not saying that what she did wasn't successful, just that it was successful because of third party intervention. I shudder to think what would have happened if that third party didn't come to her aid.

 

[elder999]

Woman triangle chokes attacker unconscious judge awards her 500 - Bloody Elbow

From the article: " 39-year-old Mark Willis grabbed and punched her several times before forcing her to the ground and mounting her."

You mean her mad BJJ skillz didn't prevent him from grabbing and punching her several times and forcing her to the ground?

You mean being grabbed, punched and mounted is a "better outcome" than in the story in the OP?

'Cause, it sounds suspiciously similar to me.......

Also I should note that I'm not saying that what she did wasn't successful, just that it was successful because of third party intervention. I shudder to think what would have happened if that third party didn't come to her aid.

I shudder to think what would have happened in the first story if she'd been Tased, or simply cracked on the back of the head-or in the second case if the bus driver had done the same, or worse.....honestly, still don't get what you're trying to say-and, maybe, next time, you should just say it, instead of asking a question and not liking the answers you get...

 

[Hanzou]

From the article: " 39-year-old Mark Willis grabbed and punched her several times before forcing her to the ground and mounting her."

You mean her mad BJJ skillz didn't prevent him from grabbing and punching her several times and forcing her to the ground?

You mean being grabbed, punched and mounted is a "better outcome" than in the story in the OP?

'Cause, it sounds suspiciously similar to me.......

The better outcome is not relying on a third party to save the day (and getting a cash reward for choking out a rapist).