Is grappling better for female self defense than striking?

[K-man]

A rugby player could hold a guy down as well. And they like to be big.
More QLD than Melbourne though.

Not really. I think the AFL guys do a lot of that sort of training as well.

 

[K-man]

You do bjj techniques test against bjj guys but you don't grapple?

Which honestly sounds like half utilized grappling and not a fast track to ground defence.

The ground fighting in Krav is pretty much BJJ. As I repeat time after time, it is to escape the ground, not fight on the ground to try and achieve a submission. I have never said I don't grapple.

 

[Steve]

Which is why I take every opportunity to learn from those guys. My primary training partner for five years prior to his shoulder damage and subsequent surgery is a BJJ blackbelt. As I said, most of my groundwork is unashamedly lifted from BJJ, just that I didn't have to study BJJ to get the knowledge.

Who's that, out of curiosity?

 

[drop bear]

The ground fighting in Krav is pretty much BJJ. As I repeat time after time, it is to escape the ground, not fight on the ground to try and achieve a submission. I have never said I don't grapple.

Well you did. From memory it was something like "I don't dabble in grappling" or something. I could find the quote.

Otherwise I would suggest you do both and just prioritize it a bit. Considering that to train the stand up and escapes you pretty much have to be doing submission grappling anyway.

Even when we gauntlet drill. Which is almost dedicated to escapes we need guys who can grapple to hold you down otherwise what is the point?

Even bjj you can stand back up. I think you might even get a point or something something. (I don't know the rules)

 

[drop bear]

Which is why I take every opportunity to learn from those guys. My primary training partner for five years prior to his shoulder damage and subsequent surgery is a BJJ blackbelt. As I said, most of my groundwork is unashamedly lifted from BJJ, just that I didn't have to study BJJ to get the knowledge.

Well start looking at mma. It will suit you a bit better. I will hunt down a decent school in melbs.

Otherwise go see rob at integrated in the sunnycoast. Or a guy called geordie in Brisbane (I will hunt down where he trains) who are both pretty brilliant at eclectic grappling while also being tolerant of kravers having their own ideas.

Which I think are wrong,need to get shown why it is wrong. But wont forcefully drop you on your head to do it.

 

[Hanzou]

Im sorry but this a fallacy

Idk where you live in the states, but im from Ohio.

My state is pretty regularly considered in the high end of HS wrestling in the country.

Calculating the Top 25 High School Wrestling States

My Junior year, we sent our whole roster other than myself due to injury and 2 other guys to state.

This past season we had go to day 2 or 3 at state (Ive graduated so I wasnt following it so closely)

I've seen A LOT of my teammates fight,

Only ones EVER gone to the ground,

Whats more is numbers dont even line up to create the scenario youre describing a real threat.

in my are of ohio, there are 4 HS's that are always expected to go well (one's even been invited to tourneys in places like nevada and Pennsylvania). Heres a rough estimate of the size of their student pop, and amount of wrestlers

Belpre High: while I was there we never had more than 20, usually just enough for a full roster once season started

Parkersburg High: usually had about 25-30, enough that they usually could have 2 full teams, but not always

South Parkersburg high: never had fewer than two teams

Warren High: about the same as Belpre

Now lets look at average student pops here:

When I went to Belpre, we had fewer than 300

Warrens just as small

Parkerburg South :Parkersburg South High School - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia (1565 enrollment)

Parkersburg High: 1848

with 30 wrestlers, the wrestlers account for roughly 2% of the student pop of at South and PHS.


There are more than 40,000 people in this area. Most of those kids will move out of the area for various reasons, when theyre already a miniscule amount.

Even with the popularity of MMA/BJJ, you know how many people are students are at the BJJ school in the area? (which is the only place to get grappling training here outside of HS wrestling teams)

21 (give or take)

Football is a poor example, but it doesnt give any of the ground control stuff wrestling does, just teaches you how to tackle and use your weight.

This idea that youre more likely to face an experienced grappler because this is american and MMA and Wrestling and BJJ are popular is a bout as statistically accurate as the famed "99% of fights end up on the ground" Gracie stat.

Edit: Even more stuff of people placing OH as one of the toughest states for wrestling

What is the strongest weakest state for high school wrestling Forum Topic FloWrestling

Ohio New Jersey Have Nation s Best Wrestlers - MaxPreps

Which state has the best high school wrestling - Illinois Matmen Forums

and to clarify, the parkesburg schools are right across the river, less than 5 mins away from the other 2, the area of quality wrestling reaches waaaaaay across the OH WV area

Let me make sure I'm understanding your argument correctly;

You're saying that you're not more likely to encounter a skilled grappler in America because there wasn't a lot of wrestlers in your small town in Ohio? Um... Okay.

Here's something that would be interesting to look up; How many high school students in Columbus, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Dayton, and Toledo participated in wrestling programs? When we've figured out that number, we can then look at how many students in the three largest American cities participated in wrestling programs.

Here's the point; In the US wrestling/grappling is very popular. Kids grow up watching fake wrestling on television. People enjoy watching grappling in MMA competitions. The US is driving Bjj's explosive growth in popularity. High school students can participate in wrestling programs for free. MMA programs are popping up in urban rec centers at low tuition rates. People who don't formally train still participate in underground backyard wrestling groups. Our top sport features gigantic guys tackling each other and pinning them down. etc.

Because of all of that, I'm more likely to encounter someone who has had some training, or background in grappling. That's simple logic.

 

[drop bear]

Let me make sure I'm understanding your argument correctly;

You're saying that you're not more likely to encounter a skilled grappler in America because there wasn't a lot of wrestlers in your small town in Ohio? Um... Okay.

Here's something that would be interesting to look up; How many high school students in Columbus, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Dayton, and Toledo participated in wrestling programs? When we've figured out that number, we can then look at how many students in the three largest American cities participated in wrestling programs.

Here's the point; In the US wrestling/grappling is very popular. Kids grow up watching fake wrestling on television. People enjoy watching grappling in MMA competitions. The US is driving Bjj's explosive growth in popularity. High school students can participate in wrestling programs for free. MMA programs are popping up in urban rec centers at low tuition rates. People who don't formally train still participate in underground backyard wrestling groups. Our top sport features gigantic guys tackling each other and pinning them down. etc.

Because of all of that, I'm more likely to encounter someone who has had some training, or background in grappling. That's simple logic.

By the way. Which bjjers were saying topside and stand up for SD?

Geordie here mentioned it when he was in.

BLACK DRAGON KAI Instructors

K man he is a guy you should at least train with once before you die. And he is a nice guy.

 

[K-man]

Well start looking at mma. It will suit you a bit better. I will hunt down a decent school in melbs.

Otherwise go see rob at integrated in the sunnycoast. Or a guy called geordie in Brisbane (I will hunt down where he trains) who are both pretty brilliant at eclectic grappling while also being tolerant of kravers having their own ideas.

Which I think are wrong,need to get shown why it is wrong. But wont forcefully drop you on your head to do it.

Thanks for the thought but I do have top people readily available if I was interested. I am already training and/or teaching three styles, four if you include the occasional Systema. I haven't time for more. BJJ would of interest if I had time, MMA is of absolutely no interest at all.

I have several friends with serious injuries from grappling and at nearly 67 I have no desire to become intimately acquainted with an orthopaedic specialist.

 

[drop bear]

Thanks for the thought but I do have top people readily available if I was interested. I am already training and/or teaching three styles, four if you include the occasional Systema. I haven't time for more. BJJ would of interest if I had time, MMA is of absolutely no interest at all.

I have several friends with serious injuries from grappling and at nearly 67 I have no desire to become intimately acquainted with an orthopaedic specialist.

Why on earth would you preach grapple to stand up and then do bjj to the level you do it and not mma?

Mma is the stuff their submissions while you are striking and escaping because you are never going to learn enough bjj you out bjj a bjjer version of grappling.

That is just madness I tell you.

By the way who is your expert?

 

[Drose427]

Let me make sure I'm understanding your argument correctly;

You're saying that you're not more likely to encounter a skilled grappler in America because there wasn't a lot of wrestlers in your small town in Ohio? Um... Okay.

Here's something that would be interesting to look up; How many high school students in Columbus, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Dayton, and Toledo participated in wrestling programs? When we've figured out that number, we can then look at how many students in the three largest American cities participated in wrestling programs.

Here's the point; In the US wrestling/grappling is very popular. Kids grow up watching fake wrestling on television. People enjoy watching grappling in MMA competitions. The US is driving Bjj's explosive growth in popularity. High school students can participate in wrestling programs for free. MMA programs are popping up in urban rec centers at low tuition rates. People who don't formally train still participate in underground backyard wrestling groups. Our top sport features gigantic guys tackling each other and pinning them down. etc.

Because of all of that, I'm more likely to encounter someone who has had some training, or background in grappling. That's simple logic.

No that wasnt my point......

But for your sake, we'll pull numbers from those places, specifically Columbus, Dayton, and Cleavland because we wrestled them.

Franklin Heights High School - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

We only wrestled them at a big tourney, but they didnt even have a filled roster with a student body of 1107

Lincoln-West High School - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

we scrimmaged them and they had an unfilled roster as well, but not being a match kids may just not have showed.

Dont remember the school we wrestled in DAyton

My point Hanzou, is that the popularity of wrestling doesnt correlate to an increase in practitioners in the degree youre describing.

Even at the bigger schools, which you can generally find rosters for on various preseason forums, the number of wrestlers is an atrocious minority.

I mean god, have you ever been to a bar or buffalo wild wings on a fight night?

If you ask around, very very few people train.

Your average MMA fan wont train in ANYTHING.

You have a higher likely hood of being victim of a violent crime in the cities you mentioned than to get into a braawl with a wrestler.

Anyone who has wrestled knows how the small the pool of those who trained is.

AS for your "backyard" wrestling point.

Teaching oneself from youtube videos and reenactments does not make one a trained grappler bub.....But im sure you know more about it than I do....Im just waiting for my background check and interview to coach next year.....But Im off tomorrow so maybe I'll spend some time on youtube and get my BB in BJJ XD

If thats someones " Grappling background" They arent going to be dominating anyone any time soon....

 

[RTKDCMB]

Someone throwing a crane kick ala the Karate Kid isn't going to surprise anyone.

It is such an unlikely event in the middle of a fight it just might surprise someone.

The main difference between Bjj and striking though is that its much harder to copy Bjj than it is to copy a kick or a punch.

I think you underestimate the level of training it requires to learn how to strike properly.

You can throw a kick or a punch on an inanimate object to gauge its effectiveness,

For several threads now you have been saying things to the effect of you need to actually punch people in an alive manner to do just that.

but with grappling you need a partner to gauge its effectiveness.

You still need a partner to learn how to hit a moving target and how to get through someone's defenses without significantly compromising your own..

 

[Hanzou]

No that wasnt my point......

But for your sake, we'll pull numbers from those places, specifically Columbus, Dayton, and Cleavland because we wrestled them.

Franklin Heights High School - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

We only wrestled them at a big tourney, but they didnt even have a filled roster with a student body of 1107

Lincoln-West High School - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

we scrimmaged them and they had an unfilled roster as well, but not being a match kids may just not have showed.

Dont remember the school we wrestled in DAyton

Two high schools account for all the student wrestling practicioners in Ohios largest cities?

My point Hanzou, is that the popularity of wrestling doesnt correlate to an increase in practitioners in the degree youre describing.

Isn't a sport popular because it has a lot of practicioners?

You have a higher likely hood of being victim of a violent crime in the cities you mentioned than to get into a braawl with a wrestler.

Where did I say differently? I said that in the US you're more likely to come across someone with a background in grappling than in some other places, mainly due to the popularity of grappling arts in the US.

AS for your "backyard" wrestling point.

Teaching oneself from youtube videos and reenactments does not make one a trained grappler bub.....But im sure you know more about it than I do....Im just waiting for my background check and interview to coach next year.....But Im off tomorrow so maybe I'll spend some time on youtube and get my BB in BJJ XD

If thats someones " Grappling background" They arent going to be dominating anyone any time soon....

When you have some spare time, head over to Workd Star Hip Hop and check out their street fight videos. Here you have people who have developed fairly strong fighting skills simply from watching professional fights, and then practicing it on others. They would potentially have an edge on trained martial artists who come from disciplines lacking a strong fighting background.

 

[Steve]

I think you underestimate the level of training it requires to learn how to strike properly.

So obviously true. If everyone would acknowledge that the same is true for grappling, we'd be in great shape and the tenor of the conversation would probably be a lot more constructive.

 

[RTKDCMB]

So obviously true. If everyone would acknowledge that the same is true for grappling, we'd be in great shape and the tenor of the conversation would probably be a lot more constructive.

In both grappling and striking there are some things that are hard and some things that are easy to learn and become skilled in. For example in striking afront kick is relatively easy to learn and to get power out of but a side kick is a lot harder.

 

[Flying Crane]

Thirteen pages of discussion centered around Monday-morning-quarterbacking this young woman's assault, in which she successfully defended herself. But apparently she successfully defended herself all wrong.

My god, how disgusting

 

[Drose427]

Two high schools account for all the student wrestling practicioners in Ohios largest cities?



Isn't a sport popular because it has a lot of practicioners?



Where did I say differently? I said that in the US you're more likely to come across someone with a background in grappling than in some other places, mainly due to the popularity of grappling arts in the US.




When you have some spare time, head over to Workd Star Hip Hop and check out their street fight videos. Here you have people who have developed fairly strong fighting skills simply from watching professional fights, and then practicing it on others. They would potentially have an edge on trained martial artists who come from disciplines lacking a strong fighting background.

No, but theyre two of the most populated schools in those areas.

Very few wrestlers.

While other schools bring in one hundred or two hundred more wrestlers, theyre bring ing 500 or 600 non wrestlers.

This idea that wrestlers are common because wrestling is a hs sport is simply wrong.

And no, it doesnt

Again, millions of people in the US WATCH MMA/Boxing, very small percetnage of that group actually train.

Ive seen worldstar.

If you think those people have "farily strong fighting skills".....stick to grappling bud

 

[Hanzou]

No, but theyre two of the most populated schools in those areas.

Very few wrestlers.

While other schools bring in one hundred or two hundred more wrestlers, theyre bring ing 500 or 600 non wrestlers.

This idea that wrestlers are common because wrestling is a hs sport is simply wrong.

Where did I say that wrestlers are common? I said that you're more likely to run into a skilled grappler in the states because wrestling, MMA, and Bjj are popular here.

And no, it doesnt

pop·u·lar

\ˈpä-pyə-lər\adjective
: liked or enjoyed by many people

: accepted, followed, used, or done by many people

: of, relating to, or coming from most of the people in a country, society, or group

Popular Definition of popular by Merriam-Webster

Again, millions of people in the US WATCH MMA/Boxing, very small percetnage of that group actually train.

Last I checked, there were over a million American MMA practicioners. Dont feel like looking up the source right now though....

Ive seen worldstar.

If you think those people have "farily strong fighting skills".....stick to grappling bud

Considering that scenes like that can be found in Karate and TKD locations around the country, I most definitey will.

 

[jezr74]

Considering that scenes like that can be found in Karate and TKD locations around the country, I most definitey will.

Curious, would you (or anyone else) consider a youtube clip where a grappling person is unable to execute a leg lock, grab, kimura, arm bar, or any maneuver for that matter, in the same theme as a strike that doesn't land correctly or doesn't break a board or doesn't knock a person out at any level? It's really the equivalent of the tubes your posting right? Or maybe a person drilling that's not quite getting the technique correct.

I'm assuming your showing these clips to make a point that they are not effective?

 

[Flying Crane]

Curious, would you (or anyone else) consider a youtube clip where a grappling person is unable to execute a leg lock, grab, kimura, arm bar, or any maneuver for that matter, in the same theme as a strike that doesn't land correctly or doesn't break a board or doesn't knock a person out at any level? It's really the equivalent of the tubes your posting right? Or maybe a person drilling that's not quite getting the technique correct.

I'm assuming your showing these clips to make a point that they are not effective?

Hanzou is showing these clips because the only way he can feel good about himself is by tearing down others.

Is that not obvious?

 

[Hanzou]

Curious, would you (or anyone else) consider a youtube clip where a grappling person is unable to execute a leg lock, grab, kimura, arm bar, or any maneuver for that matter, in the same theme as a strike that doesn't land correctly or doesn't break a board or doesn't knock a person out at any level? It's really the equivalent of the tubes your posting right? Or maybe a person drilling that's not quite getting the technique correct.

If you're a black belt in Karate or TKD, and you can't break a board or capable of doing competent-looking kata, then your instruction was seriously lacking.

The same would apply to a Judo, Bjj, or Sambo black belt who couldn't utilize proper throws, chokes, takedowns, or leg locks. However, I don't honestly see that ever occurring since those arts emphasize a high level of hard sparring. There's simply no way you're advancing through the ranks in Bjj for example if you can't do the basics.

I'm assuming your showing these clips to make a point that they are not effective?

the techniques are fine. It's the people doing the technique that's the problem, along with MA teachers simply not caring about the proficiency of their students.

Btw, here's part 2;