Is grappling better for female self defense than striking?

[drop bear]

Judo is awesome. Sambo, Catch wrestling, Shuai jiao... lots of options. You can get solid grappling training outside of BJJ. Doesn't change my opinion that a grounding (no pun intended) in grappling should be considered essential. And, in my opinion, it needs to come from a primarily grappling art.

BJJ has the benefit over most of those others in that it emphasizes the guard. But, I'm a fan of any sound, grappling instruction.

The guard is taking a back seat a bit with our guys in favour of turtle and standing up.
Because you are just not safe there any more.

Even bjjers are going off it a bit.

 

[Hanzou]

That said… Steve…

Why would you say that that's a fundamental pillar, though? Given your complete lack of any self defence focus or training, what are you basing this idea on? Why is the emphasis on being able to work from your back a "fundamental pillar" of self defence? Why would anything beyond the basics be needed, why do you need to get to what Hanzou describes as "instructor level"? And how can you not see it as arrogant to suggest that anyone teaching self defence who hasn't attained your prescribed rank in your personal art isn't really qualified to teach self defence?

Well since my name was mentioned, and I share the same belief and rank as Steve, I'll happily interject;

Q:Why would the ability work from your back be a fundamental pillar of self defense?

A: Frankly, isn't it obvious? If things go south and you end up on your back, wouldn't it be advantageous to be able to work off your back and return to an advantageous position? Isn't the back the usual position that many women find themselves during a rape confrontation? I see people winding up on their backs constantly during street fights, and attacks. The young lady in this article wound up on her back right?

Many people are ignorant to that type of fighting, which immediately shifts things to your advantage if you know what you're doing.

If you don't learn to fight off your back what do you do if you end up on your back? Just throw up your hands and give up? Do what this young lady did and continuously punch and kick and scream in hope that someone will pass by and make the big bad run away? I don't buy the notion that you can train yourself to avoid that range altogether. That has been disproven over and over again in a variety of contexts.

I agree with Steve that a blue belt level at least is required to gain any level of proficiency in ground fighting. Mainly because decent guard play is so vital to a solid ground game, and you don't get a solid guard game until you've spent time at blue belt IMO.

 

[Buka]

I've always been confused over the question of self defense and Martial Arts. Isn't every style of Martial Arts born from self defense techniques?

 

[Buka]

As for guard - I'll give up my guard when you pry it from my cold, dead legs.

 

[Hanzou]

The guard is taking a back seat a bit with our guys in favour of turtle and standing up.
Because you are just not safe there any more.

Even bjjers are going off it a bit.

LoL! Says who? We're definitely not going off of it. The Guard still forms the fundamental base of our fighting style. Further, its evolving pretty rapidly. It seems like someone is coming up with a new guard every month these days.

MMA is a different matter entirely though. I could see it taking a backseat there, since so many people train in it, and learn how to counter it. I am seeing a lot more of the rubber guard from 10th Planet in MMA these days though.

Or maybe I'm just seeing things....

As for guard - I'll give up my guard when you pry it from my cold, dead legs.

LoL! Exactly.

 

[Chris Parker]

Well since my name was mentioned, and I share the same belief and rank as Steve, I'll happily interject;

Okay.

Q:Why would the ability work from your back be a fundamental pillar of self defense?

A: Frankly, isn't it obvious? If things go south and you end up on your back, wouldn't it be advantageous to be able to work off your back and return to an advantageous position? Isn't the back the usual position that many women find themselves during a rape confrontation? I see people winding up on their backs constantly during street fights, and attacks. The young lady in this article wound up on her back right?

Right… you're focusing on a minor aspect, and only one potential… as well as only one method of dealing with it. In other words, sure, having some idea of what might happen there is a good idea… but that's a far cry from saying that any level of BJJ is required.

Many people are ignorant to that type of fighting, which immediately shifts things to your advantage if you know what you're doing.

There are many things that can be done to shift things to your advantage that have nothing to do with BJJ. Frankly, and this was a major part of my point to Steve, BJJ's answer is just one of many… and is hardly the most essential aspect to look to.

If you don't learn to fight off your back what do you do if you end up on your back? Just throw up your hands and give up? Do what this young lady did and continuously punch and kick and scream in hope that someone will pass by and make the big bad run away? I don't buy the notion that you can train yourself to avoid that range altogether. That has been disproven over and over again in a variety of contexts.

And if you don't learn to disarm a shotgun, what to you do if they have one? Or a knife? Or there's six of them? Or if your hands are tied or cuffed? Or if the guy is a savate world champion? Or if? Or if? Or if???

Understand?

But realistically, you've already skipped over most of self defence to even get to this point.

I agree with Steve that a blue belt level at least is required to gain any level of proficiency in ground fighting. Mainly because decent guard play is so vital to a solid ground game, and you don't get a solid guard game until you've spent time at blue belt IMO.

Sure… but is that really considered a fundamental pillar of a self defence syllabus? That's the question.

I've always been confused over the question of self defense and Martial Arts. Isn't every style of Martial Arts born from self defense techniques?

Absolutely not! Almost none of them are, if you really look at them… and none are designed with modern, Western self defence in mind.

 

[drop bear]

Why would you say that that's a fundamental pillar, though? Given your complete lack of any self defence focus or training, what are you basing this idea on? Why is the emphasis on being able to work from your back a "fundamental pillar" of self defence? Why would anything beyond the basics be needed, why do you need to get to what Hanzou describes as "instructor level"? And how can you not see it as arrogant to suggest that anyone teaching self defence who hasn't attained your prescribed rank in your personal art isn't really qualified to teach self defence?

Everyone is qualified to teach self defence. There is no accepted standard. I could teach it tomorrow and it would be technically as valid as anything else.

So I honestly don't get the qualifications face off. And I am not sure how you can use whatever qualifications to drive home your point.

Now From my non qualified experience. If you cannot fight of the ground you are at the absolute mercy of the person who has put you there. So it might be wise to not be a complete goober on the ground if you want to be serious about the while self defence thing.

 

[Chris Parker]

Everyone is qualified to teach self defence. There is no accepted standard. I could teach it tomorrow and it would be technically as valid as anything else.

Valid… sure. Credible might be a different story… and realistic, informed could be something different again.

So I honestly don't get the qualifications face off. And I am not sure how you can use whatever qualifications to drive home your point.

My point wasn't my credentials, it was the basis of where Steve was coming from with his ideas.

Now From my non qualified experience. If you cannot fight of the ground you are at the absolute mercy of the person who has put you there. So it might be wise to not be a complete goober on the ground if you want to be serious about the while self defence thing.

Okay, one more time. I am not, in any way, suggesting that such information/knowledge/skill is not a good idea… it can be a very good one… my issue was with the idea that, unless there was at least a blue/purple belt BJJ in the mix, it was a flawed and lacking self defence approach.

 

[drop bear]

LoL! Says who? We're definitely not going off of it. The Guard still forms the fundamental base of our fighting style. Further, its evolving pretty rapidly. It seems like someone is coming up with a new guard every month these days.

MMA is a different matter entirely though. I could see it taking a backseat there, since so many people train in it, and learn how to counter it. I am seeing a lot more of the rubber guard from 10th Planet in MMA these days though.

Or maybe I'm just seeing things....

Mostly a combination of having to deal with punching and wrestlers learning how to do submissions.

Both of which make people not want to sit in guard too long.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I think the problem is that when something comes from a Bjj or MMA perspective, some traditional stylists have a sort of inferiority complex and feel that the Bjj or MMA practitioner is attacking their style

Maybe they are just dealing with the superiority complex of the ocasional Bjj or MMA practitioner.

 

[drop bear]

Valid… sure. Credible might be a different story… and realistic, informed could be something different again.



My point wasn't my credentials, it was the basis of where Steve was coming from with his ideas.



Okay, one more time. I am not, in any way, suggesting that such information/knowledge/skill is not a good idea… it can be a very good one… my issue was with the idea that, unless there was at least a blue/purple belt BJJ in the mix, it was a flawed and lacking self defence approach.

In which case play the ball and not the man. Ok lets pretend you me and Steve don't have the final word on self defence. And so rely on the actual reasons a bjj purple belt may or may not be the pillar of self defence.

Which by the way I have recently trained with a quality folk style wrestler. And the sd frame work of that is quite impressive. As it focusses less on guard and more on standing back up.

 

[Chris Parker]

In which case play the ball and not the man. Ok lets pretend you me and Steve don't have the final word on self defence. And so rely on the actual reasons a bjj purple belt may or may not be the pillar of self defence.

Er… I had. Go back and re-read.

Which by the way I have recently trained with a quality folk style wrestler. And the sd frame work of that is quite impressive. As it focusses less on guard and more on standing back up.

Which is still dealing only with the minor aspect of fighting as pertains to self defence.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Also wouldn't Karate also be considered a modern, sport-heavy, limited application, limited context system?

Not if it does not have any sporting aspects.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I don't buy the notion that you can train yourself to avoid that range altogether.

Maybe I am reading these threads wrong but I don't recall anyone on here saying they are avoiding that range altogether.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

LoL! Wrong again. It takes on average 2 years to get a blue belt in Bjj.

Anyways.... back to topic.

Unfortunately not everywhere now a days. I have met several "blue belts" and I use the term from my perspective laughingly who got it in around a year. Yes, they were bad!

 

[Steve]

But, by the same token, I don't see anyone in this thread saying that karate is an essential aspect of self defence the way Steve suggested BJJ had to be there… he's since softened (slightly) to include any similar grappling to his estimation of a particular skill level… which simply shows a reduction of an understanding of "self defence" to one of the least important aspects in the first place.

I would say, in the same way that I believe grappling should be a pillar for self defense training, striking is also essential. The third leg of the stool, for what it's worth, is what I'd call soft skills, including situational awareness, communication and conflict training, and things like that. That's if you're really serious about it.

Regarding your ******** insinuation about softening the message, I've written about this time and again, and have said repeatedly that I have a great respect for judo, sambo and other grappling arts. In this case, if I failed to meet your rhetorical standard, tough ****. Truly, Chris, you can shove your word by word nitpicking up your arrogant *******. Truly.

That said… Steve…

Why would you say that that's a fundamental pillar, though?

I said it because I mean it, Chris.

Given your complete lack of any self defence focus or training, what are you basing this idea on?

My opinions are based upon my experiences, Chris. What I've read, what I've seen, what I've done.

Why is the emphasis on being able to work from your back a "fundamental pillar" of self defence? Why would anything beyond the basics be needed, why do you need to get to what Hanzou describes as "instructor level"?

Truly, a blue or purple belt in BJJ these days is what I would consdier a strong understanding of the basics. I don't think more than that is required. Thanks for asking.

Garbage, Steve, frankly. You've been offering your take on what's required for a self defence method here, you've had a number of threads about whether or not anyone can actually teach self defence, or be an expert in it, all of which stem from your lack of experience in this field. Simply by trying to offer what comes across as informed, or at least, cognisant insight on this topic, you're putting yourself up as someone who has understanding and knowledge… which, by your own admission, you don't. So you are pretending to be something you're not… and not for the first time.

Wait a minute. LOL. YOU... are accusing me of being a fraud??? That's got to be the funniest thing I've read in a long time. Seriously. Could you go back and point out where I'm inflating my experience, alleging to be an expert on a topic or suggesting that my opinion is more than just that? Because, every post of yours meets at least one of those criteria.

But really, the point of my comments was to highlight that reality. You can say that you'd highly advise a strong base in, or at least grasp of the fundamentals of BJJ as being highly advantageous for the physical aspects of a self defence curriculum… but stating that it's a fundamental pillar of something you've never had any exposure to… that's where you're pretending to be something you're not. And honestly, if you don't see that (you didn't the last few times we went through this, so my hopes aren't very high…), then there's little that can be said.

Brother...

 

[Buka]

Absolutely not! Almost none of them are, if you really look at them… and none are designed with modern, Western self defence in mind.

Then why would there be kicks, punches, elbow strikes, knees, blocks, parries, footwork, evasion, yielding, locks, holds, escapes, counters etc in every style I've ever seen?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yeah, that's why I said "average".



Which is strange since the belt after blue is instructor level.....

Another thing, some of us go back far enough in BJJ that we remember Blue Belts (some with stripes) being instructors and running training halls. It was also closer to 2 1/2 to 3 years then to get a blue belt.

However, back to the topic at hand.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Do what this young lady did and continuously punch and kick and scream in hope that someone will pass by and make the big bad run away?

What she did was fight him off, there is nothing in the story that states that the passerby was the major factor in her surviving the encounter.

 

[arnisador]

Excuse a random anecdote, but this happened several months ago though the court case has just been resolved:
Female kickboxer knocks out sex attacker who pounces as she walks home

A woman kickboxer who used her martial arts skills to throttle a sex attacker has been praised by a judge[...]the woman, who has been kickboxing for two years and has also taken a self-defence course, turned the tables on Willis in the attack at 2am on August 31.

She told the court how she first tried to break his arm with a hold she had been taught - and then got him in a scissor-grip with her legs, throttling him so forcibly that he passed out.
​

More general, my take on the original question is that it depends on what threat you're assuming the person will probably face. Grappling is not so great a choice if a attack by machete is the most likely danger but is an excellent choice if sexual assault is the expected threat. So, I read the question as: Should women's self-defense training focus primarily on the dangers of sexual assault? I suppose I'd answer that generally speaking it makes sense to place strong emphasis on that, yeah, and that moves ground-grappling way up the list.