Is grappling better for female self defense than striking?

[Steve]

Unfortunately not everywhere now a days. I have met several "blue belts" and I use the term from my perspective laughingly who got it in around a year. Yes, they were bad!

FWIW, after about a year, you're comfortable with the basics. Even now, a high blue belt, purple belt has been training for somewhere at least around 3 years or so.

 

[elder999]

And this discussion kinda reminds me of the protracted one we had with the "pure winch chun" gal from Texas, (who, as it turned out, wasn't quite so much of either...) about whether wing chun practitioners could benefit from jujutsu training, and on the efficacy of BJJ in particular...

....believe it or not, Hanzou, I was on the "pro-BJJ" training side of that mud bath......frankly, it's hard not to see the benefits of grappling training for a woman-beyond whatever level it exists in a particular "striking art" (there are throws in karate, remember? Some grappling skills in wing chun, too...no "groundfighting" in either....) and fighting someone in your guard, well, as I said upthread, that's pretty much where a rapist wants to be......why not make it where he just thinks it's where he wants to be?

So, grappling/groundfighting? Essential?-Absolutely. Groudfighting is an essential portion of proper, well-rounded self-defense training.........Is it "better," as you've originally posted? Nah. I've known women who can hit like -freight trains-never mind that whole "claw the crap out of his eyes" thing.....

 

[elder999]

One looks like kickboxing without the head shots, and the other is point sparring trash.

That speaks of a rather uneducated eye-it is, nonetheless, an example of people "fighting the way they do kata."

 

[Drose427]

That speaks of a rather uneducated eye-it is, nonetheless, an example of people "fighting the way they do kata."

You cant expect someone to be educated when they refuse to listen to those who know better, simply because the person disagrees.

 

[elder999]

One looks like kickboxing without the head shots, and the other is point sparring trash.

That speaks of a rather uneducated eye-it is, nonetheless, an example of people "fighting the way they do kata."

 

[K-man]

I'm change the question slightly ...
Q:Why would the ability work from your back NOT be a fundamental pillar of self defense?

Because the pillars of self defence would be things like awareness, avoidance, de-escalation and common sense. Fighting is a little thing hanging off somewhere of which getting up from the ground is very important, like one of the balls if you like. To me "working from your back" has no part of self defence unless you are referring to escaping from the ground and you don't need BJJ for that as evidenced by this young lady who it seems managed to regain her feet twice during this altercation without BJJ training.

A: Frankly, isn't it obvious? If things go south and you end up on your back, wouldn't it be advantageous to be able to work off your back and return to an advantageous position? Isn't the back the usual position that many women find themselves during a rape confrontation? I see people winding up on their backs constantly during street fights, and attacks. The young lady in this article wound up on her back right?

Yep, and she got straight back up, right? Twice!

Many people are ignorant to that type of fighting, which immediately shifts things to your advantage if you know what you're doing.

And many people are ignorant of the training of other styles which seems to have the same benefit for those who choose not to study BJJ.

If you don't learn to fight off your back what do you do if you end up on your back? Just throw up your hands and give up? Do what this young lady did and continuously punch and kick and scream in hope that someone will pass by and make the big bad run away? I don't buy the notion that you can train yourself to avoid that range altogether. That has been disproven over and over again in a variety of contexts.

Twist the facts again. For a start she was yelling, not screaming. That is a fundamental instruction in self defence if you are being attacked. Most attackers don't want attention drawn to their attack, especially sexual predators. The lady was punching and kicking ... how strange is that? Fancy a karateka not punching and kicking. What an idiotic thing to put in a post.

If you end up on your back you do what this young lady was taught to do, and tested on in her blackbelt grading, and get back on your feet.

'Big bad' was already in trouble when assistance was offered. You make it sound like the guy coming to her aid was her saviour. He wasn't. It was almost over when he arrived. Read the accounts!

As for the notion that you can train yourself to avoid the ground, you are the only person anywhere that I have heard even suggest it is possible. You use that notion to put down those of us who train to try to avoid going to the ground, not that we don't also train to fight from the ground, just with a different focus.

I agree with Steve that a blue belt level at least is required to gain any level of proficiency in ground fighting. Mainly because decent guard play is so vital to a solid ground game, and you don't get a solid guard game until you've spent time at blue belt IMO.

And I'll call BS on that unless you are training to fight a trained grappler and even then it is not really necessary. I have rolled with heaps of grapplers over the years with mixed results without any formal BJJ training. When it comes to untrained people, who are after all the type of person most of us are training to fight, basic ground training is all you will ever need.

 

[Steve]

basic ground training is all you will ever need.

On this we agree. What constitutes "basic" ground fighting is, I think, where we diverge. I would say "basic" ground fighting is a couple years training with competent grapplers. Dabbling with other dabblers isn't what I would recommend as a constructive way to spend your time. If you're going to just mess around, I'd say spend your valuable elsewhere. You'd be no better off having dabbled with grappling than you would be without any grappling training at all, and may be worse off if you're developing bad habits resulting from unrealistic or overly complex techniques.

 

[K-man]

Which by the way I have recently trained with a quality folk style wrestler. And the sd frame work of that is quite impressive. As it focusses less on guard and more on standing back up.

Funny that. Exactly what most of us have been saying all along.

 

[K-man]

Then why would there be kicks, punches, elbow strikes, knees, blocks, parries, footwork, evasion, yielding, locks, holds, escapes, counters etc in every style I've ever seen?

I think if you look at self defence in its totality, successful SD is not fighting. Therefore if you're not fighting you are not using your kicks, punches etc. When you SD fails, as it did in this case with the young lady walking along an unpopulated pathway with headphones, you then utilise every fighting skill you have.

I'm not in total agreement with Chris' statement but I do understand where he is coming from.

 

[K-man]

On this we agree. What constitutes "basic" ground fighting is, I think, where we diverge. I would say "basic" ground fighting is a couple years training with competent grapplers. Dabbling with other dabblers isn't what I would recommend as a constructive way to spend your time.

Look, to be blunt. I have yet to have an untrained person best me on the floor. I get big strong guys from all over the place with varying level of fighting ability coming to my classes. I have been able to get away from every single one for as long as I have been teaching martial arts and I am anything up to 50 years older than them.

Spending two years training to grapple when grappling is not your focus is frankly a huge waste of time. The chances of me needing to use grappling skills in real life are very small. Only once have I needed to use my skills on the ground where I restrained the guy until police arrived. That I managed without effort and without specialised grappling training. Now that I am retired from that environment I don't envisage me needing to fight on the ground at all.

If you're going to just mess around, I'd say spend your valuable elsewhere. You'd be no better off having dabbled with grappling than you would be without any grappling training at all, and may be worse off if you're developing bad habits resulting from unrealistic or overly complex techniques.

Now that is condescending nonsense. So you are saying what I teach is flawed yet you have never seen what I teach. Most of what I teach comes straight from BJJ tested against BJJ guys. Nothing complex at all and little to do with grappling on the ground, all designed to get back up off the ground. I don't dabble in grappling.

 

[Steve]

Nevermind. Kman, you're just not worth the time. Good luck to you in your training.

 

[Hanzou]

Because the pillars of self defence would be things like awareness, avoidance, de-escalation and common sense. Fighting is a little thing hanging off somewhere of which getting up from the ground is very important, like one of the balls if you like. To me "working from your back" has no part of self defence unless you are referring to escaping from the ground and you don't need BJJ for that as evidenced by this young lady who it seems managed to regain her feet twice during this altercation without BJJ training.

Yep, and she got straight back up, right? Twice!

I find it interesting that this young lady's story keeps changing, and keeps making her look more and more in control of the situation. I suppose the first iteration didn't shine a very favorable light on her 15 years of martial arts training.

That said, I'm sticking to the version of events presented in the article posted in the OP. Not the latter articles which seems to point to her trying to save face.

And many people are ignorant of the training of other styles which seems to have the same benefit for those who choose not to study BJJ.

I think this comes down to differences of culture and continent. Here in the states, plenty of people know about martial arts. Its part of popular culture here thanks to Bruce Lee, Power Rangers, and MMA. If you consider boxing and wrestling a martial art, then MA is taught throughout the high school system. People are pretty knowledgable about how to fight on their feet. Someone throwing a crane kick ala the Karate Kid isn't going to surprise anyone.

I would even argue that Bjj is becoming less of an unknown due to the popularity of MMA over here. The main difference between Bjj and striking though is that its much harder to copy Bjj than it is to copy a kick or a punch. You can throw a kick or a punch on an inanimate object to gauge its effectiveness, but with grappling you need a partner to gauge its effectiveness.

Twist the facts again. For a start she was yelling, not screaming. That is a fundamental instruction in self defence if you are being attacked.

A stranger heard Ms Davis' screams for help and came to her aid, scaring off the attacker.
Read more at I basically beat the crap out of him Melbourne karate expert turns the tables on violent attacker - 9news.com.au

Again, the changes to the original story are becoming quite remarkable.

If you end up on your back you do what this young lady was taught to do, and tested on in her blackbelt grading, and get back on your feet.

'Big bad' was already in trouble when assistance was offered. You make it sound like the guy coming to her aid was her saviour. He wasn't. It was almost over when he arrived. Read the accounts!

Again, based on the original article, he was her savior. I find it hard to believe that she would be screaming for help if she had her attacker on the ropes.

As for the notion that you can train yourself to avoid the ground, you are the only person anywhere that I have heard even suggest it is possible. You use that notion to put down those of us who train to try to avoid going to the ground, not that we don't also train to fight from the ground, just with a different focus.

And I'll call BS on that unless you are training to fight a trained grappler and even then it is not really necessary. I have rolled with heaps of grapplers over the years with mixed results without any formal BJJ training. When it comes to untrained people, who are after all the type of person most of us are training to fight, basic ground training is all you will ever need.

Well again, this is probably a difference of continent and culture at work. Here in the states, wrestling and American Football are incredibly popular sports among young teenage boys. Both of those sports teach grappling and tackles, as well as pinning. Couple that with strength training inherent in these sports, and the rising popularity of MMA among that same demographic, and you have a recipe for a skilled grappler giving you trouble. Again, probably not prevalent in Australia, but quite a potential issue here in the states.

 

[Steve]

I think this comes down to differences of culture and continent. Here in the states, plenty of people know about martial arts. Its part of popular culture. If you consider boxing and wrestling a martial art, then MA is taught throughout the high school system. People are pretty knowledgable about how to fight on their feet. Someone throwing a crane kick ala the Karate Kid isn't going to surprise anyone.

I would even argue that Bjj is becoming less of an unknown due to the popularity of MMA over here. The main difference between Bjj and striking though is that its much harder to copy Bjj than it is to copy a kick or a punch. You can throw a kick or a punch on an inanimate object to gauge its effectiveness, but with grappling you need a partner to gauge its effectiveness.

Well again, this is probably a difference of continent and culture at work. Here in the states, wrestling and American Football are incredibly popular sports among young teenage boys. Both of those sports teach grappling and tackles, as well as pinning. Couple that with strength training inherent in this sports, and the rising popularity of MMA among that same demographic, and you have a recipe for a skilled grappler giving your trouble. Again, probably not prevalent in Australia, but quite a potential issue here in the states.

this has been pointed out in the past, and remains relevant. In the high schools around here, in addition to wrestling, judo is also offered as a sport. Grappling is pretty common.

 

[Hanzou]

this has been pointed out in the past, and remains relevant. In the high schools around here, in addition to wrestling, judo is also offered as a sport. Grappling is pretty common.

Grappling is even within American Football. In fact, some football players take wrestling in order to improve their tackling ability. Wrestling is one of the best grappling systems on the planet, and kids get to learn it for free in American secondary schools.

 

[namadesk]

Although any martial arts training is better than no training at all. I personally think grappling is better suited for female self defense. With grappling being an art focused on smaller people dealing with larger people, as well as the fact that since it happens on the ground, it is the same place most women would end up in a physical assault situation, I think it would better prepare women for an attack.

Frank
North Augusta Martial Arts

 

[drop bear]

Funny that. Exactly what most of us have been saying all along.

Which was my point. The difference is the application is better. Because it works on trained guys. And some of it is pretty basic concepts.

So if you ever get a chance to get a look at some of these guys take it because it will fire off some light bulbs.

 

[drop bear]

Grappling is even within American Football. In fact, some football players take wrestling in order to improve their tackling ability. Wrestling is one of the best grappling systems on the planet, and kids get to learn it for free in American secondary schools.

A rugby player could hold a guy down as well. And they like to be big.
More QLD than Melbourne though.

 

[drop bear]

Now that is condescending nonsense. So you are saying what I teach is flawed yet you have never seen what I teach. Most of what I teach comes straight from BJJ tested against BJJ guys. Nothing complex at all and little to do with grappling on the ground, all designed to get back up off the ground. I don't dabble in grappling.

You do bjj techniques test against bjj guys but you don't grapple?

Which honestly sounds like half utilized grappling and not a fast track to ground defence.

 

[Drose427]

Well again, this is probably a difference of continent and culture at work. Here in the states, wrestling and American Football are incredibly popular sports among young teenage boys. Both of those sports teach grappling and tackles, as well as pinning. Couple that with strength training inherent in these sports, and the rising popularity of MMA among that same demographic, and you have a recipe for a skilled grappler giving you trouble. Again, probably not prevalent in Australia, but quite a potential issue here in the states.

Im sorry but this a fallacy

Idk where you live in the states, but im from Ohio.

My state is pretty regularly considered in the high end of HS wrestling in the country.

Calculating the Top 25 High School Wrestling States

My Junior year, we sent our whole roster other than myself due to injury and 2 other guys to state.

This past season we had go to day 2 or 3 at state (Ive graduated so I wasnt following it so closely)

I've seen A LOT of my teammates fight,

Only ones EVER gone to the ground,

Whats more is numbers dont even line up to create the scenario youre describing a real threat.

in my are of ohio, there are 4 HS's that are always expected to go well (one's even been invited to tourneys in places like nevada and Pennsylvania). Heres a rough estimate of the size of their student pop, and amount of wrestlers

Belpre High: while I was there we never had more than 20, usually just enough for a full roster once season started

Parkersburg High: usually had about 25-30, enough that they usually could have 2 full teams, but not always

South Parkersburg high: never had fewer than two teams

Warren High: about the same as Belpre

Now lets look at average student pops here:

When I went to Belpre, we had fewer than 300

Warrens just as small

Parkerburg South :Parkersburg South High School - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia (1565 enrollment)

Parkersburg High: 1848

with 30 wrestlers, the wrestlers account for roughly 2% of the student pop of at South and PHS.


There are more than 40,000 people in this area. Most of those kids will move out of the area for various reasons, when theyre already a miniscule amount.

Even with the popularity of MMA/BJJ, you know how many people are students are at the BJJ school in the area? (which is the only place to get grappling training here outside of HS wrestling teams)

21 (give or take)

Football is a poor example, but it doesnt give any of the ground control stuff wrestling does, just teaches you how to tackle and use your weight.

This idea that youre more likely to face an experienced grappler because this is american and MMA and Wrestling and BJJ are popular is a bout as statistically accurate as the famed "99% of fights end up on the ground" Gracie stat.

Edit: Even more stuff of people placing OH as one of the toughest states for wrestling

What is the strongest weakest state for high school wrestling Forum Topic FloWrestling

Ohio New Jersey Have Nation s Best Wrestlers - MaxPreps

Which state has the best high school wrestling - Illinois Matmen Forums

and to clarify, the parkesburg schools are right across the river, less than 5 mins away from the other 2, the area of quality wrestling reaches waaaaaay across the OH WV area

 

[K-man]

Which was my point. The difference is the application is better. Because it works on trained guys. And some of it is pretty basic concepts.

So if you ever get a chance to get a look at some of these guys take it because it will fire off some light bulbs.

Which is why I take every opportunity to learn from those guys. My primary training partner for five years prior to his shoulder damage and subsequent surgery is a BJJ blackbelt. As I said, most of my groundwork is unashamedly lifted from BJJ, just that I didn't have to study BJJ to get the knowledge.