Iraqi Prisoners Abused, Humiliated, Tortured.

[Cryozombie]

We have the same fanatical desires in our culture and religion. Genetic prediliction toward lebensraum anyone? Perhaps we have more in common then you think?

I'm sorry, I'm confused... I did not know what was, so I looked it up in Merriam-webster and found this:

territory believed especially by Nazis to be necessary for national existence or economic self-sufficiency

space required for life, growth, or activity

So, do you mean that we as a culture are pre-disposed to feel a need for land to survive? I'm not sure how you meant that last statement, can you "dumb it down" for me? Thanks.

 

[Rick Wade]

Iraqi sex, lies and videotape...

..on no, wait, it's just the Boston Globe:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38464

But this isn't anti-American. I'm sure someone will speak to that effect.

I don't look at as anti American I just look at it as someone trying to stir the pot mainstream media, and they got caught.

They are right down there with the New York Times and making up stories to sell papers.

 

[michaeledward]

No don't be sarcastic. Don't argue, lets debate. What I was saying is that the way they have been brought up, as a society isn't as compassionate and sheltered as our way of living in the United States. I have been all around the world several times now and I can tell you first hand WE GOT IT GOOD real good. Just the fact that we can talk intelligently about this says allot for your country. In most third world countries most of you would have been turned in for talking bad about the government and you would have been sought out and imprisoned. Things like that make you think differently. Remember these people haven't had freedom of speech and expression for several decades if not centuries.

Respectfully

I was not being sarcastic. I was being damned serious. To say that a member of the same species thinks in a different way is to accuse them of being something 'other' than what we are. In context, this usually means something 'less' than we are. This arguement has been made for hundreds or thousands of years to justify invasions and murder. I am certain that Iraqi husbands love their wives in just the same manner that I love my wife. I am certain that Afghanistan mothers love their children in just the same way I love my children.

Most third world countries have strong religous societies, because it allows concentration of power and authority; it prevents revolt. Anyone familiar with Islam knows that it is a loving gentle religion. The roots of Islam are in the same Old Testament read by Christains around the world. The roots of Islam are the same as the Tora used as a guide for millions of Jews. Muslems believe in Abraham, Isaac and Jesus.

Those in this country who say that their religion teaches hate know nothing of the religion, and are practicing the same behavior that Eugenics believers practiced throughout the 20th century, and used to justify killing of millions.

 

[michaeledward]

... the friend of my enemy is my enemy. If he was going to allow Osammy to reside within his borders, he becomes part of the problem in one fashion or another.

Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden were not friends. All of the experts agree it would be a cold day in hell before Hussein allowed bin Laden into his country.

No, I am not "required" to believe anything. Thanks for painting me with the same brush you accuse everyone else of using - making broad generalizations about a person's motives based on a few statements.

In order to follow the logic of your argument, and accept it as valid, belief in the underlying principle is required. Your argument was, as I read it "We did the right thing in deposing Saddam Hussein because of 9/11" ... now, that is paraphrased a bit ... but let's recap your argument;

And ultimately, after 9/11, you'll notice nothing else has been bombed (as threatened repeatedly), you'll notice Osama doesn't show up much on the news (because he is either no longer news, or no longer a threat?), you'll notice that most Iraqis are glad Sadaam is gone. Whatever got us there, we did the right thing, are doing the right thing, and will continue doing the right thing until the threat of terrorism, the threat of murder by psychopaths with a political agenda, is ended.​

​

You clearly state that we are doing the right thing until the 'threat of terrorism is ended'. --- IRAQ was not a terrorist threat! And unless you believe that it was, the invasion of Iraq can not be justified.

No, they think based on their cultural background, which states that acts like the beheading are perfectly acceptable in retaliation to the US for the photos and abuse of the Iraqi prisoners.

Which states are acting that the execution of Mr. Berg was 'perfectly acceptable'?

 

[michaeledward]

Iraqi sex, lies and videotape...
..on no, wait, it's just the Boston Globe:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38464
But this isn't anti-American. I'm sure someone will speak to that effect.

Mike, you're right ... this is repugnant. But, it will soon desensitize the American public, so that when the real photos emerge, the masses will not revolt.

Hell, the right wing talk radio are playing the activities in Abu Ghraib as 'Fraternaty Pranks' and 'Pornography'. I'm sure that's exactly what was going on over there; just like a good hazing at Alpha Alpha Beta Zeta Thong.

I'm more interested in hearing what Senate Majority Leader Frist had to say about his private screening today.

Mike

OK all, sorry for the repeated posts ... I'll try to contain myself in the future ...

 

[Ender]

Well I've been gone a few days and am just now getting caught up with this "event". From what I've gathered from some articles is that Iraqi prisoners were tortured and humiliated. From some accounts there was forced sodomy, homosexual sex acts, beatings, and humiliation. While many of theses abuses are repugnant, much of it is psychological. I personally don't see a problem using mind games on prisoners as a way to gather information or intelligence. Forcing them to stand naked, having them stand on a box and telling them they will be electrocuted if they get off the box, or excercizing them strenously I don't consider abuse. But beatings and abhorrent sex acts I do. But I am proud of this country, proud because WE found these abuses and are working to resolve them. WE put this out and let the world know about it. Our own military was working on this well before it became public. And WE will fix it and take care of it. I haven't read all the posts on this subject, but I'm sure many will try to use this as a politcal ploy against Bush. This I find just as abhorrent. Some will say he should take responsibility and resign. Well ,taking responsibility means to fix the problem and find a way so it doesn't happen again. Not to quit, or run away from the problem. Those that did these acts will be court martialed and punished.

Now, onto the recent beheading of Nick Berg. If you haven't looked at the video, you should. It is one of the most horrifying things I have seen. If you look at it you will see how these monsters grab him by the hair. Dragged him to the ground. Take a knife and started hacking away at his throat. you will hear his screams of pain and anguish. Then the silence of him no longer screaming because he is dead. And you will see how they continue to hack away at his neck, cutting away his head and holding it up as some trophy. And do you think we will get an apology for this? Where is the Arab outrage over this incident? Thats the difference between us and them. We find the abuses in our system and are repulsed by them. But these..these extremists are nothing but dogs, and this is what we are fighting against. this is why we are taking the fight to them. These extremists have no conscience. They don't care if you are a Republican or a Democrat, they will kill you anyway. And if we catch them, I would like to see the abuses done to these swine tenfold. But thats just me.

 

[marshallbd]

I was not being sarcastic. I was being damned serious. To say that a member of the same species thinks in a different way is to accuse them of being something 'other' than what we are. In context, this usually means something 'less' than we are. This arguement has been made for hundreds or thousands of years to justify invasions and murder. I am certain that Iraqi husbands love their wives in just the same manner that I love my wife. I am certain that Afghanistan mothers love their children in just the same way I love my children.

I dont think anyone is saying that they are a different species, I think that they are saying that your environment, be it poitical or social, does influence your thoughts and feelings and BEHAVIORS (in caps for emphasis not to yell). :asian:

 

[michaeledward]

Well I've been gone a few days and am just now getting caught up with this "event". From what I've gathered from some articles is that Iraqi prisoners were tortured and humiliated. From some accounts there was forced sodomy, homosexual sex acts, beatings, and humiliation. While many of theses abuses are repugnant, much of it is psychological. I personally don't see a problem using mind games on prisoners as a way to gather information or intelligence. Forcing them to stand naked, having them stand on a box and telling them they will be electrocuted if they get off the box, or excercizing them strenously I don't consider abuse. But beatings and abhorrent sex acts I do. But I am proud of this country, proud because WE found these abuses and are working to resolve them. WE put this out and let the world know about it. Our own military was working on this well before it became public. And WE will fix it and take care of it. I haven't read all the posts on this subject, but I'm sure many will try to use this as a politcal ploy against Bush. This I find just as abhorrent. Some will say he should take responsibility and resign. Well ,taking responsibility means to fix the problem and find a way so it doesn't happen again. Not to quit, or run away from the problem. Those that did these acts will be court martialed and punished.

Now, onto the recent beheading of Nick Berg. If you haven't looked at the video, you should. It is one of the most horrifying things I have seen. If you look at it you will see how these monsters grab him by the hair. Dragged him to the ground. Take a knife and started hacking away at his throat. you will hear his screams of pain and anguish. Then the silence of him no longer screaming because he is dead. And you will see how they continue to hack away at his neck, cutting away his head and holding it up as some trophy. And do you think we will get an apology for this? Where is the Arab outrage over this incident? Thats the difference between us and them. We find the abuses in our system and are repulsed by them. But these..these extremists are nothing but dogs, and this is what we are fighting against. this is why we are taking the fight to them. These extremists have no conscience. They don't care if you are a Republican or a Democrat, they will kill you anyway. And if we catch them, I would like to see the abuses done to these swine tenfold. But thats just me.

Spoken like someone with no knowledge of the facts.
* The abuse of prisoners in the US Prisons in Iraq was first discovered and reported by the International Red Cross.
* Activities to report the abuse were slow and / or non existant from the US Military
* The outrage about the Berg killing can be heard loud and clear in the streets of Baghdad, if one chooses to listen to the reports.

Regards - Mike

 

[michaeledward]

I dont think anyone is saying that they are a different species, I think that they are saying that your environment, be it poitical or social, does influence your thoughts and feelings and BEHAVIORS (in caps for emphasis not to yell). :asian:

What if, for example, you look at statement 166 in this thread, by Ender, through the lens of 'dehumanizing' the enemy. That WE think and act in a noble and honorable way; that THEY are a brutal, animal people that are not like us, and therefore deserve what they have coming to them; and WE are justified in reigning our justice down on them, because THEY are not like us; those EXTREMISTS.

I think it is very clear that many on this thread are saying exactly that those 'Arabs' are a different species; obviously not understanding the term. They are putting forth a Eugenics argument.

 

[marshallbd]

What if, for example, you look at statement 166 in this thread, by Ender, through the lens of 'dehumanizing' the enemy. That WE think and act in a noble and honorable way; that THEY are a brutal, animal people that are not like us, and therefore deserve what they have coming to them; and WE are justified in reigning our justice down on them, because THEY are not like us; those EXTREMISTS.

I think it is very clear that many on this thread are saying exactly that those 'Arabs' are a different species; obviously not understanding the term. They are putting forth a Eugenics argument.

I understand what you are saying and I do not agree with people looking at someone as a person or a race and saying they are not worth anything. Being a person of Arabic descent does not make you an animal....the ideology that SOME, not all, Arabic people embrace is what creates the problem....

By the way for those who do not know the word as I didn't...

from dictionary.com...

Eugenics

n : the study of methods of improving genetic qualities by selective breeding (especially as applied to human mating) :asian:

 

[MJS]

Iraqi sex, lies and videotape...

..on no, wait, it's just the Boston Globe:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38464

But this isn't anti-American. I'm sure someone will speak to that effect.

Ahh...Very interesting. I'm glad you found that link, because in my first post on this thread I made the comment "If its true", referring to the pics. and I got this response from another poster here. This is what he said.

First of all, "if it's true," is kind of a crazy thing to say, IMHO, considering we have the photo's to prove it. Plus, attrocities happened in war...go back and read my previous posts that explained why. Yes, they happened on both sides, but 2 wrongs don't make a right.

Just goes to show that you shouldnt believe everything that you see.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I don't look at as anti American I just look at it as someone trying to stir the pot mainstream media, and they got caught.

They are right down there with the New York Times and making up stories to sell papers.

Whats interesting, and maybe someone already brought this point up, I dont know, but why are these photos just surfacing now???? Considering that the war has been going on for a while now, is this so called 'abuse' just being discovered now or was it happening for a while??

Mike

 

[MJS]

Spoken like someone with no knowledge of the facts.
* The abuse of prisoners in the US Prisons in Iraq was first discovered and reported by the International Red Cross.
* Activities to report the abuse were slow and / or non existant from the US Military
* The outrage about the Berg killing can be heard loud and clear in the streets of Baghdad, if one chooses to listen to the reports.

Regards - Mike

Well, ya know what...it amazes me how people like the Red Cross, and all of the other groups who are so concerned with how the prisoners are being treated, are the first ones to cause the problem. Some of these prisoners there, if not tied up, would not think twice about attacking a soldier. Many of these people are violent and need to be restrained. A prison is not a country club, therefore why provide them with all of the amenities of one??? Do you honestly think that if they had an American hostage, they would treat them good?? I dont think so!

Its funny though..I havent heard anything about the expression of outrage against Berg from the 'people in the streets'. Why isnt that published in the paper?? Maybe it is, I dont know, but I havent seen or heard about it.

Mike

 

[marshallbd]

Its funny though..I havent heard anything about the expression of outrage against Berg from the 'people in the streets'. Why isnt that published in the paper?? Maybe it is, I dont know, but I havent seen or heard about it.

Mike

I too, have not seen or heard of the reaction on the streets in Iraq concerning the beheading that took place. Again, I would like to offer my prayers for Mr Berg and his Family....

On a side note, One of the 4 people whose bodies were mutilated and dragged through the streets last month was a martial artist and actor. You might remeber him from the movie GI Jane...he was the seal instructor during the training sequences of that movie (According to BlackBelt Magazine) :asian:

 

[MJS]

What if, for example, you look at statement 166 in this thread, by Ender, through the lens of 'dehumanizing' the enemy. That WE think and act in a noble and honorable way; that THEY are a brutal, animal people that are not like us, and therefore deserve what they have coming to them; and WE are justified in reigning our justice down on them, because THEY are not like us; those EXTREMISTS.

I think it is very clear that many on this thread are saying exactly that those 'Arabs' are a different species; obviously not understanding the term. They are putting forth a Eugenics argument.

I gotta agree with Ender on this one. One thing to keep in mind here, is that these people would rather die than cooperate with the US. If you think back, we've used these sorts of tactics before and they've had good results. Blasting music for hours on end, in addition to other techs. used to mentally wear them down have been used for a long time. Granted, and I'll say it again, IF these pics of prisoners in sexual positions are real, then no, that is not right. But making them stand on a box, telling them if they fall they'll get zapped....why not??

Mike

 

[MJS]

I too, have not seen or heard of the reaction on the streets in Iraq concerning the beheading that took place. Again, I would like to offer my prayers for Mr Berg and his Family....

On a side note, One of the 4 people whose bodies were mutilated and dragged through the streets last month was a martial artist and actor. You might remeber him from the movie GI Jane...he was the seal instructor during the training sequences of that movie (According to BlackBelt Magazine) :asian:

I gotta wonder if there was outrage at the dragging of the bodies through the streets as well??? I cant seem to recall if there was or not, but if I had to wager a bet, I'd say that there was none.

Mike

 

[michaeledward]

Its funny though..I havent heard anything about the expression of outrage against Berg from the 'people in the streets'. Why isnt that published in the paper?? Maybe it is, I dont know, but I havent seen or heard about it.

Mike

Follow this link to listen to a news report concerning Iraqi response to Berg's murder.
http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1894191

 

[MisterMike]

* The outrage about the Berg killing can be heard loud and clear in the streets of Baghdad, if one chooses to listen to the reports.

Regards - Mike

I would think this is probably true. I do not think the Iraqi people want al-Qaeda-types in there cutting off the heads of Americans just for the simple fact it draws an overwhelming response from the U.S. Military, in the same fashion of how we shelled Falluja and that other place when the cleric was hangin' out.

I look forward to our response to this one...

 

[rmcrobertson]

So, if I understand correctly, the logic is:

a) It was OK because it wasn't torture.

b) It's OK because here on the greatest country on earth, we took care of it already;

c) It's OK, because look at what, "those people," did to poor Nicholas Berg.

So, in other words, it didn't happen, we fixed it, and anyway it was their fault in the first place. Never seen a better illustration of Freud's bucket joke.

 

[marshallbd]

Follow this link to listen to a news report concerning Iraqi response to Berg's murder.
http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1894191

"Un-Islamic"? Isn't 99% of what goes on over there "un-Islamic". I am not muslim or islamic, but from what I understand, the Islamic religion is a peaceful religion the same as christianity. So where in the Koran or the Bible does it talk about a holy war with terrorism as the principal means of fighting? :asian: