Iraqi Prisoners Abused, Humiliated, Tortured.

[michaeledward]

Damn you Picard.

H, ha, hu --- you called me --- Picard!

Your are four years old ... and helpless .....

 

[Tgace]

I would like to know how an E-4 winds up being the scapegoat. Where is the chain of command in all of this? I was taught as an Army sergeant that I was "responsible for what those under my command did or failed to do". Where was the supervison?

 

[michaeledward]

I would like to know how an E-4 winds up being the scapegoat. Where is the chain of command in all of this? I was taught as an Army sergeant that I was "responsible for what those under my command did or failed to do". Where was the supervison?

I believe President Bush today said that we had an 'Accountability Moment' on November 2, 2004.

We had an accountability moment, and that's called the 2004 elections. The American people listened to different assessments made about what was taking place in Iraq, and they looked at the two candidates, and chose me."

Apparently, he believes that his re-election was a positive assessment of responsibility for all of the action of all of those in his administration. So, even though Donald Rumsfeld may have been at the root of all of the Abu Ghraib interrogations, the 3 plus million vote majority negates any further 'supervision' or responsibility.

It must be so comforting to be Mr. Bush, to know with the certainty of faith that God has appointed you at this time.

 

[Tgace]

Thats nice....I want to know where this E-4's Squad Leader and Platoon Sergeant were for starters.

 

[michaeledward]

Pesky thing, that 'Chain of Command', eh?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Let us rewrite harry truman:

"THE SHUCK STOPS HERE"

In my opinion, Bush is directly responsible, as are the voters who talked themselves into rationalizing the abandonment of the rule of law, the rejection of at least two treaties this country is signatory to, and the abandonment of what the, "moral majority," claims are their religious principles.

Not because of these particular abuses--but because the Bush government started floating the idea that, "preventative detention," and routine torture were perfectly OK shortly after 9/11, and there were no real objections from republicans and from centrists.

Certainly, the low-level soldiers are responsible. Their religious and moral education probably taught them better--and certainly, the UCMJ should have. But equally certainly, the blame spins right (get it?) up the chain of command. It certainly includes the "intelligence officials," who actively encouraged torture...and as far as can reasonably be seen, it damn well includes people like John Ashcroft and a couple of Bush's Court nominees...

 

[heretic888]

"But most people in the know readily admit that torture *doesn't work* - it is not a "useful tool" Posted in some form or other by numerous

Drivel. Who are "most people"? Where's the scientific study of modern torture so many of you rely on? "In the know.." about what?

Aimlessly torturing random subjects certainly would lessen your chances of getting reliable info. But selectively torturing specific individuals screened for access to desired info....I bet that would work just fine. And quickly, too.
Come on, be fair. If it didn't work, they wouldn't do it.

Sure they would.

They'd just have their own justifications for it. People have been having irrational and unscientific justifications for a lot of things for centuries. Nothing new here.

After all, the "jury is still out" on global warming, evolution, and tobacco-induced lung cancer, right??

There have been a few scientific studies detailing the effectiveness of torture. Most of them, of course, date before the 1950's. Couldn't get away with that kinda stuff nowadays. Ethics, liabilities, and all that silliness.

Just take a social psychology course if you want the meat 'n grits. The "efficacy of torture" is just one of those self-justified myths, right up there with "pure sadism (or 'evil')" and the "blank slate".

Latez.

 

[rmcrobertson]

There have been a number of claims on this thread that the abuses weren't really torture, or that everything was exaggerated, or that the prisoners deserved whatever they got, trial or no trial.

One would recommend that anybody comfortable with these sorts of lies should lift a finger, take a look, at today's "New York Times Book Review," (Sunday, Jan. 23, 2005.), which has a long review of two new books on the subject.

Here is a personal narrative recorded by the International Committee of the Red Cross:

"They threw pepper in my face and the beating started. This went on for a half an hour. And then he started beating me with the chair because the chair was broken. After that they started choking me. At that time I thought I was going to die, but it's a miracle I lived. And then they started beating me again. They concentrated on beating me in my heart until they got tired from beating me. They took a little break and then they started kicking me very hard with their feet until I passed out."

Yes, yes. To be sure--it's just those leftists. Unfortunately, the US Government's investigating group, the Schleschinger panel, has, "officially conceded, though the President has never publicly acknowledged, that American soldiers have tortured five inmates to death."

Yes, yes...yes, it's just a buncha bleeding-heart liberal civilians. Unfortunately, here is a statement from the US Army's own investigation, "led by Lt. Gen. Anthony R. Jones and Maj. Gen. George R. Fay":

"On another occasion DETAINEE-07 was forced to lie down while M.P.'s jumped onto his back and legs. He was beaten with a broom and a chemical light was broken and poured over his body...During this abuse a police stick was used to sodomize DETAINEE 0-07 and two female M.P.'s were hitting him, throwing a ball at his penis, and taking photographs."

So--what other excuses for torture ya got? It was just orders? They deserved it? Military expediency? Anything that wasn't covered by, you know, the Nuremberg Trials?

 

[Adept]

"They threw pepper in my face and the beating started. This went on for a half an hour. And then he started beating me with the chair because the chair was broken. After that they started choking me. At that time I thought I was going to die, but it's a miracle I lived. And then they started beating me again. They concentrated on beating me in my heart until they got tired from beating me. They took a little break and then they started kicking me very hard with their feet until I passed out."

I know. Lets treat him as the Iraqi insurgents treat our captives. We'll just beat him and starve him for a few days, then behead him and send the video to is family!

Yes, yes. To be sure--it's just those leftists. Unfortunately, the US Government's investigating group, the Schleschinger panel, has, "officially conceded, though the President has never publicly acknowledged, that American soldiers have tortured five inmates to death."

This being the same US government that assured the world that Iraq had massive stockpiles of WMDs?

"On another occasion DETAINEE-07 was forced to lie down while M.P.'s jumped onto his back and legs. He was beaten with a broom and a chemical light was broken and poured over his body...During this abuse a police stick was used to sodomize DETAINEE 0-07 and two female M.P.'s were hitting him, throwing a ball at his penis, and taking photographs."

Cry me a river.

So--what other excuses for torture ya got? It was just orders? They deserved it? Military expediency? Anything that wasn't covered by, you know, the Nuremberg Trials?

On this specific issue - I frankly dont give a crap. What they do to our prisoners is much worse. So I simply dont care what we do to theirs. It's petty and vengeful, and I know it. I garner a certain amount of satisfaction when I hear about such abuse of prisoners.

 

[michaeledward]

On this specific issue - I frankly dont give a crap. What they do to our prisoners is much worse. So I simply dont care what we do to theirs. It's petty and vengeful, and I know it. I garner a certain amount of satisfaction when I hear about such abuse of prisoners.

Just so we are all clear on your position.

 

[Adept]

Just so we are all clear on your position.

As it pertains to the specific situation at Abu Ghraib, yes.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Congratulations! You've rediscovered the rationale of every murdering set of bastards down through history!!

And further kudos for the glib rejection of a) fundamental moral principles of every religion on earth; b) fundamental moral principles of martial arts advanced by--among many others--Bruce Lee.

And a deep bow for the glib acceptance of policies and actions that are not only making Iraq harder and harder every day, not only making this country more and more hated throughout the world, but which more and more allow whover gets into power to justify abusing citizens here at home.

News flash: we're supposed to be the Good Guys. That means we behave BETTER than the bad guys. See, that way, we not only live up to our own principles, but we show other people how to do it right. See, we're in Iraq to spread the principles of democracy and freedom, see, and these principles...oh, never mind.

Just don't come cryin' when they grab your friends, your family, you, and then say, "Well, THEY did it FIRST!!!"

 

[Adept]

Congratulations! You've rediscovered the rationale of every murdering set of bastards down through history!!

One would hardly say rediscovered. That would imply that such rationales had been lost. One would consider it naive to believe that.

And further kudos for the glib rejection of a) fundamental moral principles of every religion on earth;

Like an eye for an eye?

b) fundamental moral principles of martial arts advanced by--among many others--Bruce Lee.

One feels that your point has been misplaced. Which specific moral statutes set out in which specific texts by which specific martial artists, as they pertain specifically to martial arts? References please.

And a deep bow for the glib acceptance of policies and actions that are not only making Iraq harder and harder every day, not only making this country more and more hated throughout the world, but which more and more allow whover gets into power to justify abusing citizens here at home.

One understands how the actions in question are making life harder for everyone in Iraq. With regard to that, they are deplorable.

News flash: we're supposed to be the Good Guys. That means we behave BETTER than the bad guys.

One believes the Coalition forces are acting better. They do not make a habit of deliberately bombing civilians, or routinely slaughtering captives, nor do they blatantly disregard the rules of war, as a matter of course.

Just don't come cryin' when they grab your friends, your family, you, and then say, "Well, THEY did it FIRST!!!"

When who does what now?

 

[michaeledward]

Remove the moat from thine own eye ....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6863916/

Torture in Iraq still routine, report says
Detainees beaten, shocked by Iraqi jailers, rights group finds
By Doug Struck

BAGHDAD - Twenty months after Saddam Hussein's government was toppled and its torture chambers unlocked, Iraqis are again being routinely beaten, hung by their wrists and shocked with electrical wires, according to a report by a human rights organization.

Iraqi police, jailers and intelligence agents, many of them holding the same jobs they had under Hussein, are "committing systematic torture and other abuses" of detainees, Human Rights Watch said in a report to be released Tuesday.Legal safeguards are being ignored, political opponents are targeted for arrest, and the government of interim Prime Minister Ayad Allawi "appears to be actively taking part, or is at least complicit, in these grave violations of fundamental human rights," the report concludes.

A spokesman for Allawi declined to comment Monday and said "I will put this report on the prime minister's desk tomorrow to see if he has any reaction."

And I just heard a report on the radio about extensive abuse in Guantanamo.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Bingo.

If anybody actually bothers to read the material, there is available all sorts of clear, direct, uncontroverted, incontrovertible evidence that a) the United States has been engaging in systemic, widespread torture in Iraq, at Guantanamo, and at camps in Afghanistan; b) we have also been shipping prisoners to countries such as Egypt for torture by others, in direct violation of our long-standing treaties; c) this isn't an accident or an occasional aberration, but planned, deliberate policy; d) the source for this policy is largely the civilian government of George Bush.

As somebody who's been around a little longer than some folks--brought up in that mythic, good old day America--let me tell you folks about a big change since the good old days, one that suggests that just perhaps all the right-wing complaint about moral decline may have a point.

I never thought I'd see the day when my government, and many of its citizens, would've sunk so far and become so frightened that they actually, publicly, began to institute a policy of deliberate torture.

No pseudo-realist claim that, "everybody always did it!" will excuse this. No insistence that, "It's an emergency!" justifies adopting the same policies and actions that distinguished the Nazis and Joe Stalin's bully boys will excuse this. No smartass remarks about, "Well, THEY do it to US!" will excuse this.

It's shameful. It's shameful that we've done this, and it's shameful to see citizeens in a democratic society trying to excuse it. Why? because, speaking purely for old-fashioned values: this country is all about the OPPOSITE of the bad guys. One had thought we're trying to defend America, not translate the country into some police state and the hooraw about the, "victory."

One plans to shut up on this thread now, unless something new comes along.

 

[Bester]

"One had thought we're trying to defend America, not translate the country into some police state and the hooraw about the, "victory.""

One was wrong. Actually, One wasn't wrong. Many were.
"One" was right. It is reality of the situation that is truely wrong.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

One was wrong. Actually, One wasn't wrong. Many were.
"One" was right. It is reality of the situation that is truely wrong.

Thanks for clearing THAT one up. :idunno:

 

[heretic888]

Thanks for clearing THAT one up. :idunno:

I believe he's agreeing with Robert, dude.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Oh...*looks over the post again, then shrugs*...ok.