Iraqi Prisoners Abused, Humiliated, Tortured.

[michaeledward]

We have to remember that these people do not think like we do. They don't have the same compasion that we do as a hole.

What do you mean, 'They do not think like we do'? .. Do they think with their liver?
Statements like these tend to be part of the 'dehumanization' process that allows people to kill someone else with enduring difficulties.

 

[MJS]

What people don't realize is that guy was going to beheaded anyway. My heart goes out to his family. However these fanatical extreemist would have come up with another reason (i.e. the Americans still there in their country) to do something like this. We have to remember that these people do not think like we do. They don't have the same compasion that we do as a hole.

You're right. All the more reason to step up the force and end this. Either that, or just pull everyone the hell out of there, and who cares about helping them rebuild. I didnt see anyone from over there, coming to NYC to help with 9/11!

Mike

 

[MJS]

What do you mean, 'They do not think like we do'? .. Do they think with their liver?
Statements like these tend to be part of the 'dehumanization' process that allows people to kill someone else with enduring difficulties.

I think he's saying here that we wouldnt have cut someones head off.

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

What do you mean, 'They do not think like we do'? .. Do they think with their liver?
Statements like these tend to be part of the 'dehumanization' process that allows people to kill someone else with enduring difficulties.

I took it to mean that fundamentalist Muslims have different values and way of thinking then Americans do. For instance, the Koran advocates that it is better to kill then disfigure or torture. This is where we often fail to realize how serious those pics are to the Fundamentalist Muslim.

There are certian values and thinking that are "human" (universal) and others that are specific to moral/ethical beliefs of the different communities. If that's what he ment, then I agree.

 

[michaeledward]

I think he's saying here that we wouldnt have cut someones head off.

Mike

No .. we would just shoot them ... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4955074/ ... either way, dead.

 

[michaeledward]

I took it to mean that fundamentalist Muslims have different values and way of thinking then Americans do. For instance, the Koran advocates that it is better to kill then disfigure or torture. This is where we often fail to realize how serious those pics are to the Fundamentalist Muslim.

There are certian values and thinking that are "human" (universal) and others that are specific to moral/ethical beliefs of the different communities. If that's what he ment, then I agree.

These thoughts reminded me of this great song from the 80's .... although, maybe the lyrics need to be tweeked a bit for the current situation.

Sting - Russians lyrics

In Europe and America, there's a growing feeling of hysteria
Conditioned to respond to all the threats
In the rhetorical speeches of the Soviets
Mr. Krushchev said we will bury you
I don't subscribe to this point of view
It would be such an ignorant thing to do
If the Russians love their children too

How can I save my little boy from Oppenheimer's deadly toy
There is no monopoly in common sense
On either side of the political fence
We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too

There is no historical precedent
To put the words in the mouth of the President
There's no such thing as a winnable war
It's a lie that we don't believe anymore
Mr. Reagan says we will protect you
I don't subscribe to this point of view
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too

We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
What might save us, me, and you
Is that the Russians love their children too​

​

 

[MJS]

No .. we would just shoot them ... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4955074/ ... either way, dead.

Well, ya know...thats part of war!!! Personally, I think that we (the US) stick our nose into WAY too much stuff to begin with. We went to Iraq to look for WMD. Seeing as how we didnt find what we thought, we should have left. Over, done with. As much as I want to see our people come home, we need to realize that it was them who singed up for the service. To enlist and just go on the assumption that they could skate by, getting an education, etc. without the possibility of ever having to go to war, is poor thinking. I know it sounds harsh and like I dont care, but thats not the case. Its no different than someone becoming a firefighter and never dreaming in a million years that they'd ever have to walk into a burning building.

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

No .. we would just shoot them ... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4955074/ ... either way, dead.

I think that is why people are so appalled by the photo's (as they should be). The american dialectic is dependent on "us" thinking that we are "better" then "them." When we hear of the wrongs that we do, it destroys that idealect. There are distinct differences at times. Other times, there are not. We are not always as "better" as we would like to think.

 

[Rick Wade]

What do you mean, 'They do not think like we do'? .. Do they think with their liver?
Statements like these tend to be part of the 'dehumanization' process that allows people to kill someone else with enduring difficulties.

No don't be sarcastic. Don't argue, lets debate. What I was saying is that the way they have been brought up, as a society isn't as compassionate and sheltered as our way of living in the United States. I have been all around the world several times now and I can tell you first hand WE GOT IT GOOD real good. Just the fact that we can talk intelligently about this says allot for your country. In most third world countries most of you would have been turned in for talking bad about the government and you would have been sought out and imprisoned. Things like that make you think differently. Remember these people haven't had freedom of speech and expression for several decades if not centuries.

Respectfully

 

[Matt Stone]

I am an alcoholic practicing my 12th year of sobriety. You need not lecture me on where the responsibility lies. Perhaps someday you may discover alcoholism is a disease, not a choice; we don't blame those with cancer for their disease.

Well, actually, no I don't believe alcoholism is a disease... A disease happens to you, alcoholism (and drug abuse, spouse abuse, child abuse) is a choice. Made under a degree of duress, perhaps, but it doesn't just "happen." Alcoholics don't choose to be alcoholics, but they sure do choose to drink... But congratulations on your sobriety nonetheless. It's a long, hard road.

Justice and Vengeance are not the same thing.

No, they aren't, which is why I included them both in my admonishment to you to be sure that, in the situations I outlined, you call for neither.

Please be aware that more terrorist activities have occurred since 9/11/2001 than occurred in the same time period prior to September 11, 2001. Maybe not on U.S. soil, but the Marriott in Bali is pwned by a U.S. company. Al Qaeda's war is a world wide war.

And when, precisely, did I start giving two sh|ts about other countries? I care that my family is safe, first and foremost. All others come after that. Is it sad and terrible that other countries have had such a rough go since 9/11? You bet. But you'll notice that after we froze Osammy's accounts, bombed the bejeezus out of his training camps, arrested as many of his operatives as we could, and made getting into this country a tad bit tougher, things haven't been quite so noisy here at home, have they? Mission accomplished...

Or because the Bush Administration had to beat the drums to launch his 'Private Little War' against the 'Tyrrant' that tried to kill "his daddy".

Nice side benefit, don't you think? Be able to secure the country against outside attack and settle a grudge? I'm not seeing a problem there...

. . . I'm not sure that the Iraqis are 'glad' about anything.

Of course you aren't, dear. That's because your information comes from the media. I have at least a half dozen people on the ground that I speak with now and again, and they are saying that the word on the street, the word from the Everyday Joe, is that they are dead happy that Saddam is out of the picture. But then, that'd go against your arguments aimed at Dubya's head, so why would you admit that they might be happy about what has happened...

You are again arguing that 'Saddam' was part of the 'threat of terrorism'. This is just not true ... no matter how much some want to believe it.

No, I didn't say that. I said that he has a history of atrocities against his own people. I said that he was a tyrant. I never said he was necessarily a part of the "threat of terrorism." However, the friend of my enemy is my enemy. If he was going to allow Osammy to reside within his borders, he becomes part of the problem in one fashion or another. Again, Khaddafy made real sure that we knew he wasn't going to harbor anyone... A few well placed bombs back in the Reagan administration saw to it that the Colonel knows with whom he f*cks when the US is concerned...

Of course, it is required that you believe this fallacy is true, in order to justify that we are 'doing the right thing'. If Saddam was not part of the 'threat of terrorism', then what we are doing is wrong, regardless of the outcome.

No, I am not "required" to believe anything. Thanks for painting me with the same brush you accuse everyone else of using - making broad generalizations about a person's motives based on a few statements.

I am reminded of a saying I heard a long time ago: "Who must do the harsh thing? He who can..." In this instance, and so many others, the rest of the world bellyaches to the US "Oooh, bail me out of my financial quagmire," or "oooh, please feed my starving people," or "oooh, please give us free medical care to save us from the diseases plaguing us." How about "oooh, please save my bacon from this other pissant third-world nobody that is rattling sabers at my borders?" We're good enough for these things, right? So we took the ball and ran with it. We finished a mission that should have been wrapped up over a decade ago. Some very few individuals have done reprehensible things on both sides. But I stand by the fact that what we have done pales in comparison, if for no other fact than because it is my people that are being affected...

Is that different from the Iraqis? Absolutely not. Which brings me to this gem:

What do you mean, 'They do not think like we do'? .. Do they think with their liver?
Statements like these tend to be part of the 'dehumanization' process that allows people to kill someone else with enduring difficulties.

No, they think based on their cultural background, which states that acts like the beheading are perfectly acceptable in retaliation to the US for the photos and abuse of the Iraqi prisoners. We don't think the same. They think death is preferable to humiliation. It is hard to get an American to feel strongly about anything to believe death is preferable, so the killing of an individual in place of anything else is abhorrent to us.

It is statements like yours that help to fuel the fires of those whose direct experience in any of these situations is lacking...

 

[Cryozombie]

Bear with me here... I might just be a little idealistic in this...

The way I perceive that the thinking differs is that OVERALL

(And I say overall, understanding that there are exceptions to this, such as the events we are discussing)

The "Western" Ideal is that we capture prisoners, we interrogate them, but we feed them, provide them medical attention, and for the most part do not kill them.

Our thinking has changed a bit over the years, and now We TRY as a group not to intentionally target civilian targets, yes, it happens, but its not our overall plan to say, "Lets Just Nuke Iraq and be done with it... to hell with the civilian population."

"Their" ideal is to Kill as many people as they can, regardless of their military or political affiliation... Bombing civilian buildings, trains, etc etc... it's all about the body count, not WHO the bodies belong to.

They capture, torture and rape on a regular basis. When it comes out that we have done that, the majority of our people scream foul, and look to punish those who did it. The majority of their people celebrate in the streets...

That's what *I* see the difference in our thinking as.
I agree that *we* are not always better, as certain circumstances have demonstrated, but in my opinion, *they* are worse more often.

 

[Matt Stone]

We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
What might save us, me, and you
Is that the Russians love their children too

The problem is that, though we share biology, we do not necessarily share religion nor culture. This is the gulf that separates us. We believe in individual action, individual freedom, separation of church and state. They do not, and to suggest that church and state be separate is simply incomprehensible. This isn't necessarily their monopoly, either, as Mother Church felt quite the same for several hundred years...

The point is, we moved past that. We being "the West." For good or ill, we separated from the authority of religion and made politics and religion two distinct domains... They have not. This is what keeps us from finding a common ground, as much of what we propose is simply alien to their culture and way of thinking...

But you knew that, right?

 

[MJS]

Remember these people haven't had freedom of speech and expression for several decades if not centuries.

Thats very true. The sad thing is, is that any of them fail to see that that is what we're trying to give them. Unfortunately, it can't happen overnight.

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

Briefly...

The attitude that "I don't care about other countries" needs to go away too. Because we are a unilateral power, we can't possibly live in a vacuum. If other countries are in danger, so are we, and vice versa. Also, if we mistreat another country or play unfairly (as we often do with trade laws), it threatens our security directly because of our power. This needs to be understood.

Anyways....continue....

 

[Rick Wade]

Briefly...

The attitude that "I don't care about other countries" needs to go away too. Because we are a unilateral power, we can't possibly live in a vacuum. If other countries are in danger, so are we, and vice versa. Also, if we mistreat another country or play unfairly (as we often do with trade laws), it threatens our security directly because of our power. This needs to be understood.

Anyways....continue....

Good Point

I will clarify whether those people that did the beheading were Iraqi or not is null in void the fact that they belong to Al Queda is a huge point. I have absolutely no ill will to Iraqis or Muslims; my beef is with the Al Queda. A transfer in power will take place on 30 June and they will learn to stand on their own. For that I congratulate the Iraqi Nation.

P.S. the next hot bed that most of you probably haven't heard about the PI they are training terrorist over there also. This isn't our father's world anymore.

 

[Matt Stone]

Briefly...

The attitude that "I don't care about other countries" needs to go away too. Because we are a unilateral power, we can't possibly live in a vacuum. If other countries are in danger, so are we, and vice versa. Also, if we mistreat another country or play unfairly (as we often do with trade laws), it threatens our security directly because of our power. This needs to be understood.

Anyways....continue....

Agreed, however our Government's primary responsibility is to the people of the US, not the rest of the world. Confucius said that if everyone took care of their own backyard, the whole world would be just fine (I'm paraphrasing). We spend too much time worrying about other countries, and far too little worrying about our own. I applaud the fact that Dubya bolstered the security of our borders. It should have happened long ago.

I agree, though, that being the biggest, richest, fattest country makes us also the biggest, richest, fattest target for everyone on the block...

 

[MJS]

We spend too much time worrying about other countries, and far too little worrying about our own.

Yes, I agree!!! If some country wants to run around with guns and shoot people, then fine. As long as its not effecting us, let 'em kill each other.

Mike

 

[Makalakumu]

Nice side benefit, don't you think? Be able to secure the country against outside attack and settle a grudge? I'm not seeing a problem there...

Sure, that elation will last until you receive your first bill for said grudge settling. I hope you'll enjoy watching your kids be taxed to death for this, terrorist - no wait, wmd - no wait, humanitarian - no wait...what the hell is this war about anyway?

 

[Makalakumu]

The problem is that, though we share biology, we do not necessarily share religion nor culture. This is the gulf that separates us. We believe in individual action, individual freedom, separation of church and state. They do not, and to suggest that church and state be separate is simply incomprehensible. This isn't necessarily their monopoly, either, as Mother Church felt quite the same for several hundred years...

The point is, we moved past that. We being "the West." For good or ill, we separated from the authority of religion and made politics and religion two distinct domains... They have not. This is what keeps us from finding a common ground, as much of what we propose is simply alien to their culture and way of thinking...

But you knew that, right?

We have the same fanatical desires in our culture and religion. Genetic prediliction toward lebensraum anyone? Perhaps we have more in common then you think?

 

[MisterMike]

Iraqi sex, lies and videotape...

..on no, wait, it's just the Boston Globe:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=38464

But this isn't anti-American. I'm sure someone will speak to that effect.