Iraqi Prisoners Abused, Humiliated, Tortured.

[MJS]

Follow this link to listen to a news report concerning Iraqi response to Berg's murder.
http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1894191

Thanks for the link. Its good that there was something said, but is a shame that people have to go online to hear the report rather than being able to read about it in the paper. Again, maybe it has been printed, I dont know, but I havent seen anything.

Mike

 

[michaeledward]

Thanks for the link. Its good that there was something said, but is a shame that people have to go online to hear the report rather than being able to read about it in the paper. Again, maybe it has been printed, I dont know, but I havent seen anything.

Mike

Do you know of any newspapers that have their own reporters on the ground in Iraq? Or are they dependent on Associate Press reports? Seems to me that most major news organizations have spent the last decade reducing their overseas staff. The BBC does a pretty good job internationally. And PRI recently introduced a program called 'The World' (co sponsored by WBUR in Boston), that reports stories from overseas.

 

[michaeledward]

"Un-Islamic"? Isn't 99% of what goes on over there "un-Islamic". I am not muslim or islamic, but from what I understand, the Islamic religion is a peaceful religion the same as christianity. So where in the Koran or the Bible does it talk about a holy war with terrorism as the principal means of fighting? :asian:

Deuteronomy 7
1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. 4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. 5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. 6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

You can use the Bible to justify almost anything.

 

[MisterMike]

Deuteronomy 7
1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. 4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. 5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. 6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

You can use the Bible to justify almost anything.

Just thought I'd put the NIV version for easier reading:

1 When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations-the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you- 2 and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3 Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4 for they will turn your sons away from following me to serve other gods, and the LORD's anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5 This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire. 6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.

But what this has to do with Iraq I do not know.

 

[michaeledward]

But what this has to do with Iraq I do not know.

Someone asked where in the Bible it talks about 'Holy War'. This is just one place. I am not arguing in favor of this behavior, or justifying anything with it. Just pointing out the reference.

 

[Tgace]

Alright..beside all the round and round ..what should be done that isnt being done right now.

 

[marshallbd]

Deuteronomy 7
1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. 4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. 5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. 6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

You can use the Bible to justify almost anything.

But that is an order for war not terrorism...in my eyes they are very different...

 

[marshallbd]

Deuteronomy 7
1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. 4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. 5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. 6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

You can use the Bible to justify almost anything.

But your point was well made....

 

[MJS]

Do you know of any newspapers that have their own reporters on the ground in Iraq? Or are they dependent on Associate Press reports? Seems to me that most major news organizations have spent the last decade reducing their overseas staff. The BBC does a pretty good job internationally. And PRI recently introduced a program called 'The World' (co sponsored by WBUR in Boston), that reports stories from overseas.

Honestly, I couldnt tell you. But, I can say that seeing as how this war thing is such an important thing, I would think that every news paper, would get the info. somehow.

Mike

 

[Ender]

Spoken like someone with no knowledge of the facts.
* The abuse of prisoners in the US Prisons in Iraq was first discovered and reported by the International Red Cross.
* Activities to report the abuse were slow and / or non existant from the US Military
* The outrage about the Berg killing can be heard loud and clear in the streets of Baghdad, if one chooses to listen to the reports.

Regards - Mike

And you sound like someone who likes to select the facts he hears.

All accounts I have read have shown that the first identification of the problem came from within the military. Several weeks before the Red Cross became involved. These accounts came from CNN and MSNBC. Second, the military is a large government organization, and like any large government organization, action is not usually quick. Third, the outrage you claim has been minimal. I have not seen any official, govenment leader, or Islamic leader condemn the beheading....yet.

Best regards-Ender

 

[Cruentus]

2 things...

I don't know the answer as to whether it was the red cross or the military that found out first, but instead of speculating, lets post a source. If you have a source for Red Cross being first, Mike, please post it. Ender, if you have a source saying military was the first, please post that.

Second thing, are american news sites actually showing footage of the be-heading, or is this just something on the Islamic websites?

 

[michaeledward]

And you sound like someone who likes to select the facts he hears.

All accounts I have read have shown that the first identification of the problem came from within the military. Several weeks before the Red Cross became involved. These accounts came from CNN and MSNBC. Second, the military is a large government organization, and like any large government organization, action is not usually quick. Third, the outrage you claim has been minimal. I have not seen any official, govenment leader, or Islamic leader condemn the beheading....yet.

Best regards-Ender

The following is from the International Committee of the Red Cross, and can be read in more detail on their web site

http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/5YRMYC?OpenDocument

A second point I would like to make is that this report includes observations and recommendations from visits that took place between March and November 2003. The report itself was handed over to the Coalition Forces (CF) in February of 2004.

This is important to understand in the sense that what appears in the report of February 2004 are observations consistent with those made earlier on several occasions orally and in writing throughout 2003. In that sense the ICRC has repeatedly made its concerns known to the Coalition Forces and requested corrective measures prior to the submission of this particular report.

And to the response of Berg's murder ... the Arab News web site posts the following
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7&section=0&article=44854&d=13&m=5&y=2004&pix=opinion.jpg&category=Opinion

Now there are new pictures, taken this time not by American soldiers, but by Arab combatants — of an American civilian being beheaded by an alleged Iraqi Al-Qaeda group, of Palestinian militants holding high in triumph a bloody body part from an slain Israeli soldier alongside a copy of the Qur’an — a picture so revolting and outrageous that we could not, would not, publish it.

 

[Cruentus]

Thank you Mike.

So...who exactly is publishing this footage of the beheading on the web? Ender said that we should see this horrifying attrocity, but I don't see where anyone is actually showing the film.

 

[michaeledward]

Adult Content and Sensitivity Alert!!


I have not seen the video ...
I understand the video was removed from several servers on the web, particuarly in Indonesia. I am sure there are still mirror sites out there.

The following link does have still photos. The link has many violent images. The link is generally supportive of the 'Iraqi Resistance', and this is a position that I do not favor, so please don't yell at me just because I posted the link... thanks


Adult Content and Sensitivity Alert!!

URL DELETED DUE TO CONTENT OF ADULTS ENGAGED IN SEXUAL ACTS
SEIG
MT ADMIN

For the still photos of Berg's murder ... scroll down the page.

Please use with Caution ....

Adult Content and Sensitivity Alert!!

 

[Cruentus]

Adult Content and Sensitivity Alert!!


I have not seen the video ...
I understand the video was removed from several servers on the web, particuarly in Indonesia. I am sure there are still mirror sites out there.

The following link does have still photos. The link has many violent images. The link is generally supportive of the 'Iraqi Resistance', and this is a position that I do not favor, so please don't yell at me just because I posted the link... thanks


Adult Content and Sensitivity Alert!!

URL DELETED DUE TO SEXUAL ACTS

For the still photos of Berg's murder ... scroll down the page.

Please use with Caution ....

Adult Content and Sensitivity Alert!!

That was the most hateful website I have ever seen. So it is websites like these that are showing the footage, not credable news sites. That's just what I was wondering about.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

But that is an order for war not terrorism...in my eyes they are very different...

Religious ideology can be spun for all kinds of whacky crap. Anybody remember Mr. Falwell asserting that 9/11 was Gods punishment for abortion and gays in America? Sound like the act of a God who loved mankind (ALL mankind) so much, that he incarnated into the flesh, and was tortured to death for the salvation of (let's see, perfect people? Nope. Oh yeah...) sinners?

As for the Deut. piece...Old Testament is filled with lines of this and similar ilk, including one that even mentions not letting the chickens or livestock live, calling for total annihilation. One step further? There are Hindi teachers who have explained the Holocaust as Kharma on the reincarned souls of the Israelites who committed acts of religious genocide, as per biblical history.

Praise God, and pass the ammunition?

Oxymoron: "Holy War". Joseph Campbell said in his taped video series that man seeing the divinity in another man is not capable of acts of war. As long as we see the Thou in another, we will greet them as part of the Sacred. We must, necessarily, demote the "Thou" to an "it" to be able to destroy.

Were the Iraqi prisoners being viewed as "Thou" by their captors? Are we viewed as "Thou" by those who seek to steer plane into our landmarks, or drive bombs into our embassies? Are they comparable acts? On scale, of course not. In principle, they all require ignoring the divine spark of life present in each of us...on and by both sides. Yet we all believe we are right.

The execution squad afficianado has spoken.

D.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I suspect that the quote from Deuteronomy has to do with the repeated suggestions and claims--on this thread and elsewhere--that the problem in Iraq isn't just a few bad apples, it's with a religion that is in its very nature perverse and violent. The quote simply points out that if we're gonna go to Qu'ran and pick out the ugly bits, then use those bits to bolster a claim that Islam is sick as a religion, well, we better fess up that there are things just as ugly and as sick in the Old Testament.

As for the claim that this was war, not terrorism, so it's OK...whew. I refer youto the Nuremberg Trials (hell, at least watch the movie...Spencer Tracy, Maximilian Schell, Marlene Dietrich, Ruchard Widmark, and BURT LANCASTER), as well asthe Geneva Accords, to which the US is a signatory nation.

"War," does not make this crap OK. Neither does Christ's message, last I checked.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Sorry to single out your post...

Apparently rape is no big deal either, huh. Just fraternity stuff right? Well, maybe it is fraternity stuff....the kind that should end you up in jail.



PAUL
:asian:

hows that go again? these porn shots you have posted won't land frat boys in jail. Porn isn't illeagal ... yet :uhyeah:
Sean

 

[Ender]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The International Committee of the Red Cross began discussing allegations of prison abuse of Iraqi prisoners in February, at which point Secretary of State Colin Powell began raising the issue with other Cabinet members, State Department officials have said.

Powell "wanted to make sure the concerns of the [Red Cross] were addressed," and "the administration was open to the recommendations of the [Red Cross]," a senior official said Thursday.

Powell said he spoke Thursday with Red Cross President Jakob Kellenberger and assured him the U.S. government is dealing with the charges of abuse of the Iraqi prisoners.

"We will answer in a comprehensive way," Powell told reporters.

Antonella Notari, a Red Cross spokeswoman, said its employees had been visiting Abu Ghraib prison for some time and had been reporting on their findings and recommendations in writing to U.S. authorities.

One State Department official said Powell exerted pressure on the administration regarding the issue of releasing some of the Iraqi detainees.

"He said, 'We have to address this if we want to advance the political process.' He said we have to release the ones that can be released, and for those that can't, decide what to do with them," the official said, noting this was the same position Powell took regarding detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

This official said that in recent months the United States began to hear charges of abuse of Iraqi prisoners from Lakhdar Brahimi, the United Nations envoy who has been working in Iraq on the political transition. Brahimi also engaged Robert Blackwell, the White House point man on Iraq.

Powell first became aware of the prison abuse allegations in January, when they were reported "internally" throughout the U.S. government, State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said

 

[OUMoose]

That was the most hateful website I have ever seen. So it is websites like these that are showing the footage, not credable news sites. That's just what I was wondering about.

Check this site I put in my previous post if you REALLY want to see it... It is exceptionally graphic, however, so you have been warned. Just minimize the browser for a couple seconds during their little commercial to get access to the site.