Iraqi Prisoners Abused, Humiliated, Tortured.

[Cryozombie]

So, if I understand correctly, the logic is:


c) It's OK, because look at what, "those people," did to poor Nicholas Berg.
.

Right right right.

How about look at what, "those people," did to poor

http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/victims_list.htm

Of course you in your University Fantasyland will find a way to discount that, and allow your heart to bleed for the poor Terrorists, Al-Queda supporters, Al-Zarqawi, and Al-Queda members we are killing/humiliating in return.

So, in other words, it didn't happen, we fixed it, and anyway it was their fault in the first place. Never seen a better illustration of Freud's bucket joke.

Oh, there is that fantasy world imposing itself on reality. Get off the LSD buddy and realize NO ONE here said it didn't happen, most people aren't even "for it" having happend. Even the ones who are "for it" condemmed MOST of the actions, but agreed with the "Pyschological Warfare" aspects of it... somthing we have been doing FOREVER... Mainly because A certain level of interrogation IS neccessary... and giving them a comfy chair, a prime rib dinner, and a thereputic massage wont cut it... but the line DOES need to be drawn somewhere... Personally I would say at "physical" abuse. But psychological... well... Hell, even our police do that to our citizens... depriving them of food/sleep durring "interviews", stripping them naked, body cavity searches, lies and intimidation... cry about that for a while to Robert. Oh wait, those are americans that is happening to, thats ok isn't it?

 

[michaeledward]

Right right right.

How about look at what, "those people," did to poor

http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/victims_list.htm

Again, people weem to be mixing up the arguments. Technopunk ... you aren't saying that the people in prison in Iraq had something to do with the attacks on September 11th, are you? Even the President has stated publicly that Iraq was not involved in September 11th.

It seems that you are arguing that because 2948 were killed on September 11th, the United States can perpetrate any act on any person anywhere in the world. That doesn't seem right.

 

[Cryozombie]

Third, the outrage you claim has been minimal. I have not seen any official, govenment leader, or Islamic leader condemn the beheading....yet.

Best regards-Ender

Not that I think they are the most un-biased news service... but...

CIA official: Al-Zarqawi likely beheaded Berg
Thursday, May 13, 2004 Posted: 1:58 PM EDT (1758 GMT)

Three Arab states -- Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates --- have condemned Berg's murder. "There is no doubt that killing detainees and mutilating the remains of the dead are acts which are condemned by all religions and contrary to the morals of all nations and peoples," Saudi Ambassador Prince Bandar bin Sultan said in a statement released Wednesday.

 

[MJS]

I suspect that the quote from Deuteronomy has to do with the repeated suggestions and claims--on this thread and elsewhere--that the problem in Iraq isn't just a few bad apples, it's with a religion that is in its very nature perverse and violent. The quote simply points out that if we're gonna go to Qu'ran and pick out the ugly bits, then use those bits to bolster a claim that Islam is sick as a religion, well, we better fess up that there are things just as ugly and as sick in the Old Testament.

As for the claim that this was war, not terrorism, so it's OK...whew. I refer youto the Nuremberg Trials (hell, at least watch the movie...Spencer Tracy, Maximilian Schell, Marlene Dietrich, Ruchard Widmark, and BURT LANCASTER), as well asthe Geneva Accords, to which the US is a signatory nation.

"War," does not make this crap OK. Neither does Christ's message, last I checked.

Robert--Would you care to enlighten us to your solutions as how you think the situation should be solved??

Mike

 

[Cryozombie]

Again, people weem to be mixing up the arguments. Technopunk ... you aren't saying that the people in prison in Iraq had something to do with the attacks on September 11th, are you? Even the President has stated publicly that Iraq was not involved in September 11th.

It seems that you are arguing that because 2948 were killed on September 11th, the United States can perpetrate any act on any person anywhere in the world. That doesn't seem right.

No No, but it was stated that the Al-Queda was responsible for Bergs beheading, and Robert seems to be arguing that Berg was the "Only person" they killed. And actually, Thinking about it, I would say that Radical Terrorists who openly assassinate Americans as a RESULT of what we do to some prisoners SUGGESTS a connection somehow... even if its only a "brothers in arms" kind of connection.

Oh, and... I have openly stated many times that we went TOO far in what we did, if a lot of what they claim happend is true... so no, we cannot perpetrate ANY act on ANY person.

 

[MJS]

So, if I understand correctly, the logic is:

a) It was OK because it wasn't torture.

Umm..It wasnt torture!!!! That would be beating them with sticks or whips. 2 very different things here Rob. Shame that you dont see it. Mental abuse or hacking someones head off??? Gee, one looks more violent to me

b) It's OK because here on the greatest country on earth, we took care of it already;

Well, last time I checked, the good old USA looked like a damn good place to live to me!!!! And if this country wasnt so great Rob, then let me ask you, why do soooooooooooo many people from soooooooooooo many other countries imigrate to the USA??? Makes ya wonder.

c) It's OK, because look at what, "those people," did to poor Nicholas Berg.

What they did to Berg was SICK!!! PERIOD!!!! These people only understand 1 thing, and that 1 thing is violence!!! Every time you see a pic. of a burning vehicle, what else do you see?? A group of these sh**bags standing around, laughing, smiling, cheering, holding up a piece of the wreckage. We are there to get rid of the terrorists, and attempt to give these people a better life, and what do they do???

Mike

 

[Cryozombie]

Robert--Would you care to enlighten us to your solutions as how you think the situation should be solved??

Mike

He won't. He will go off on some wild tangent that has nothing to do with anything you ask him... as usual.

 

[Ender]

Not that I think they are the most un-biased news service... but...

Well finally!...they were slow to act don'tcha think?*L...*chuckles

 

[michaeledward]

Well finally!...they were slow to act don'tcha think?*L...*chuckles

Let's see ... Quote from MSNBC article ...

"The videotape, posted on an al-Qaida-linked Web site Tuesday, drew revulsion around the world."


​

​

If the video was posted after the news cycle in the middle east (which it was - the world is round, you know)... how much time do you think it should take to react?



Video posted on the web Tuesday
Viewable and reportable in the Middle East on Wednesday
Thursday reports of condemnation reported in the US.


Curiously - Mike

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4971314/


PS. - One last thought ... in reference to statements about how the middle east did not properly rebuke the attacks of September 11th. - This new article states that both Hezbollah & Hamas condemned the 9 11 terrorist attacks.

 

[Ender]

Let's see ... Quote from MSNBC article ...

"The videotape, posted on an al-Qaida-linked Web site Tuesday, drew revulsion around the world."




​

If the video was posted after the news cycle in the middle east (which it was - the world is round, you know)... how much time do you think it should take to react?


Video posted on the web Tuesday
Viewable and reportable in the Middle East on Wednesday
Thursday reports of condemnation reported in the US.


Curiously - Mike

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4971314/

it was sarcasm...hellooo!!

But more to your point, revulsion IS NOT condemnation by Islamic Clerics or Arab Leaders... I do appreciate how you like to play those word games though. Keep up the good work.

 

[michaeledward]

it was sarcasm...hellooo!!

But more to your point, revulsion IS NOT condemnation by Islamic Clerics or Arab Leaders... I do appreciate how you like to play those word games though. Keep up the good work.

OK ... sarcasm ... got it ...

You know, if you click with the little arrow on the blue words with the line underneath them, it brings you to a new web page ... on that page .. you do get to read more information.... like this ...

"Hezbollah condemns this grisly act which has caused great harm to Islam and to Muslims by this group which falsely claims to belong to the religion of mercy, compassion and genuine human values,” the statement said."

and

"The English-language Jordan Times condemned the beheading in an editorial, calling it “a horrific act of the greatest magnitude.”

by the way ... thanks for the chuckle ... this thread needed it a bit, and certainly I did ...

 

[Cryozombie]

And come to think of it...

While there is no way for us to know for SURE...

I believe that the "Terrorists" responsible would have killed Nicholas Berg, or someone else.. regardless of how we treated those prisoners... It sure makes a convienient excuse for them tho doesnt it?

I seem to recall american people being raped, tortured, burned, kidnapped, flown into buildings, etc...

Well before we ever tortured those Iraqis.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Where was it I read: "two wrongs don't make a right, but three do?"

Personally, I feel that if John McCain describes this stuff as torture, well, that's a good enough definition from an expert for me.

But hey, tell ya what: why don't we just go through all the photographs and statements, and arrange to do EXACTLY to some of those on this forum what American soldiers did to helpless prisoners? Seems that'd settle the question of, "Gee, was that torture?" right quick. Any volunteers?

Apparently the latest thing in the pictures is that these guys and gals--in addition to following what look to have been their orders--were running a sweet little S&M ring down in the basement of that prison. And seems to me there's no way in hell that none of the higher-ups knew it.

But hey, if you're comfortable with that, neat-o. Why should we be upset with our troops mixing business with pleasure?

I continue to be stunned by the amount of rationalizing on this thread. Guess moral HAVE declined since I grew up--back in the day, American soldiers were NEVER supposed to behave like this. We're a democracy, I was taught, and the traditional values of this country (as well as our religious principles) forbid any of what the bad guys do. It's a shame that consumer, corporatist capitalism has penetrated so far that at least a few Americans have lost all sense of pride, and hope, in the special thing that this country was put here to be.

Lincoln's remarks about the corrupting influence of slavery upon the slaveowner seem very much on point here.

But me, I am depressed to see Americans attacking people they consider, "unpatriotic," for having different ideas and some principles. That's the worst thing about the Michael Savages of the world--they legitimate hatred of fellow Americans.

Trace back in these threads over the last year or so, and you will see the ideological groundwork for this crap getting laid. remember all those discussions of how torture was sometimes justifiable? Well, this is one of the consequences. American soldiers playing sex games and getting into inflicting cruel little-boy pain and humiliations, and passing it off as somehow, "necessary."

The behavior was sick, and anybody with a grain of sense knows it, whatever they say on these threads. Only question is, whether it was an aberration or a set policy. If it was a set policy, some generals should go to jail. Probably, so should the Donald.

 

[Cryozombie]

But hey, tell ya what: why don't we just go through all the photographs and statements, and arrange to do EXACTLY to some of those on this forum what American soldiers did to helpless prisoners? Seems that'd settle the question of, "Gee, was that torture?" right quick. Any volunteers?

.

Sure pal, tell ya what...

Ill get naked, tied to a wall, and hell, I'll EVEN LET YOU ELECTROSHOCK ME, not just threaten to...

WHEN YOU CONCEDE to letting me kill your family by crashing them into a building and then following that up by burning you alive and then decapitating you?

Sound fair?

 

[MJS]

But me, I am depressed to see Americans attacking people they consider, "unpatriotic," for having different ideas and some principles. That's the worst thing about the Michael Savages of the world--they legitimate hatred of fellow Americans.

Having different ideas and principles???? What the hell are you talking about Rob????? To me, it basically sounds like you're saying its ok for what they did just because their ideas of punishment are different from ours??? Dude, if thats what you're saying, you are seriiously messed up!!! How the hell do you justify chopping someones head off compared to making someone think that they are gonna get shocked??????????? Again, 2 VERY different things here.

I also have to wonder. What would you think of all this if YOU had someone fighting over in Iraq or someone that you loved die on 9/11? Would you have a different outlook then?

I'm still waiting for how YOU would handle this situation????

Mike

 

[MJS]

He won't. He will go off on some wild tangent that has nothing to do with anything you ask him... as usual.

You're right! That is exactly what happened. I'm still waiting for his reply on how HE would handle this. Unfortunately, I'll probably be old and grey before that happens.

Mike

 

[Tgace]

Opinions are like.....(the same saying for excuses).

Solutions are rarer and tougher to come up with. Some people are very effective at cutting down ideas, but not so effective at submitting their own for examination.

 

[Cruentus]

Here is what the possabilities boil down too.

#1. What we did wasn't torture.

The fact is there are thousands, not 10 or 20 or 100, but THOUSANDS of photos of maltreatment against the prisoners. And not just frathouse pranks, but accounts of rape and beatings and murder. Just because we feel what terrorists do might be worse, that doesn't make what we did not torture.

#2 What we did may have been torture, but it was perfectly justified.

Last time I checked, 2 wrongs don't make a right. If someone rapes my wife, I will kill them, or bring them to justice through the system, plain and simple. I am not going to turn around and rape them. Just because horrific things may have happened to some of our soldiers and people, that doesn't give us liscense to do what ever the hell we want.

And F--- what "they" think about us, for the moment. As Americans, WE should hold ourselves to a higher standard then what was in those photos.

#3 O.K., O.K. It was torture, and it was not justified; but we weren't wrong. It was only a few soldiers that did it. So how could our country be blamed for the actions of a few?

First of all, there were THOUSANDS of photos and written statements, not just the few that hit the press. And according to both Democrates and Republican Senators on the news, the photos we haven't seen are far more horrific then what we have seen. So this isn't just the actions of a few.

Does this mean that "soldiers are bad." No, but it does mean that there was a top down order for these acts to occur. All the collaborating evidence supports that this was a top down order; the question is, how high does it go?

#4 O.K....fine. It was torture, and we were wrong.

Now we are getting somewhere. When you realize the problem, then you can solve it. Admitting fault is not such a bad thing. Many of our policy makers, republican and democrate, are willing to do this, and have done this. Yet, some of you here won't. It would be better for all of us in the long run.

 

[Tgace]

I agree, but I prefer to wait until all the evidence is in before jumping to judgement. If these pictures are all from the same camp then a reserve MP Bn does not an army make. If they are saying that this was an Army wide practice thats another story.

Allowing MP's (especially reserve troops) to participate in Intell operations (like interrogation) is a problem I have. These guys may have thought that this stuff was SOP. PFC England is now saying that "higher ups" ordered her pose for photos to be used as psyop material against other prisoners and that they were commended for doing a good job and that good intel was being aquired. If thats true, the blame goes much higher than some lowly PFC.

 

[loki09789]

Come on, Paul. You know how this game is played. The 'top down order' is just as implausible as anything else. They CYAed themselves because they never 'ordered' any of these specific acts. They did put pressure on fast results of interrogation of prisoners that trickled down to intelligence agencies getting creative and encouraging mental and physical abuse that the troops carrying such acts - generally National Guard/Reservists with far less man hours of professional reinforcement and strong leadership than active duty components - were justified 'because they told me too.' Well that doesn't fly for me because straight from my Guidebook for Marines:

"..You must never kill, torture or mistreat a prisoner, because such actions are a violation of the law and because prisoners may provide you vital information....Treating a prisoner badly will also discourage other enemy soldiers from surrendering.... this [proper treatment] will encourage the enemy to treat his prisoners (our buddies) well."

Now, if these reports aren't misrepresentations, exagerations of interrogation techniques no different than those that our soldiers endure during Escape and Evasion training. If these photos/reports of sexual abuse and attrocities aren't just urban legends being planted and used to the benefit of the Military INtel(MI) folks to intimidate prisoners, I say nail all involved for sacrificing professionalism for speed of intelligence - and based on the military response, they are of the same mind.

If this is all information leaking and in the end it is no different than the myth building that Mid-East terror groups use to believe about Marines back in the '80's (you had to kill a family member to get into the Marines...was the myth), then it is a game that is dangerous and can loose the local crowd because they aren't in on it.