Iraqi Prisoners Abused, Humiliated, Tortured.

[Matt Stone]

I'm a soldier, have been for the better part of the last decade and a half. I've been infantry, cavalry, and now I ride a desk in the Army JAG Corps.

I've seen both sides of the issue - wanting to do horrible things to the enemy in retaliation for wrongs committed against our troops, and defending the actions of an enemy against our troops.

I understand fully why the Iraqis are upset. They have every right. What upsets me are the Americans that are so upset at the "atrocities" they allege our troops have committed... Genocide is an atrocity. Killing innocent civilians is an atrocity. Taking embarassing and humiliating pictures isn't an atrocity any more than PVT Lynch was a hero...

Notice how this "news story" has had nearly 2 weeks of headline coverage? How many days were devoted to the 4 contractors who were killed, burned, and hung from a bridge? About 2. How many of you that protest the "atrocities" at this prison were aware of the murder of an American civilian, the beheading of whom was videotaped and then posted on the Al Jazeera network's website?

Yeah, not much newsworthy about that in an election year...

We haven't been attacked again on our soil since 9/11. We have lost hundreds of soldiers in this war, and the Iraqis have lost even more. But let's try really, really hard not to forget the several thousand that lost their lives when this whole party got started... Maybe the Iraqis weren't responsible for 9/11, but they sure didn't go out of their way to keep themselves out of our crosshairs (note that Khadafy made darn sure we knew he was bending over backwards to help our cause, and he used to be one of our main enemies). I'm glad, personally, that at least one of our leaders got off his duff and drew a line in the sand instead of across someone's blouse. There are certainly far more complex reasons for our presence in Iraq, I'm sure at least some of them deal with the oil in Iraq - I'm not naive. But there is still good in this fight, still a righteousness for toppling a real tyrant whose documented legitimate atrocities against his own people that can't be denied...

There is a guy from E-budo that is on the ground in Iraq... Hearing what he says from the front line kind of conflicts with a lot of the propaganda the liberal media would like to put into the ears of the American public... The folks he deals with daily are very happy that Sadaam is out of power, that his reign of terror is over. They are looking forward to having a say in their own country's government. Not exactly what CNN or Fox shows every night, is it? Of course not, because that'd make Kerry look like an a$$ and lend credence to Bush's cause.

There is always an extreme to every situation, an extreme to either side's opinion. What I've found, though, is when you weigh both sides, the Truth is found somewhere in the middle...

Survivor of a poorly led convoy does not equal hero.

Actions by a few individuals do not equal the behavior of many.

Keep it in perspective people, whether you agree with the war or not.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Proposal: Take the SOG lifers, the ones who are too unstable to release into the mainstream, so are left to operate in the brush in places we supposedly are not militarily active... give them their own battalion, with orders to hunt down and behead all who pull terrorist killings against Americans. Give them a huge pocket book, and all the social support they need, and make them the feared sword of U.S. vengeance.

Conversely, make a similar group whose job it is to route out the egits from US military, and deal them a swift end, too. How many of these bozo's, over there and over here, do you think would continue if the evening news was filled with images of heads on stakes? Ever been to the gold markets of Saudi Arabia during prayer? The absolute conviction of consequences does, whether in a good way or not, shape and effect behavior.

Let the terroristas know...no trials, no forums or pulpits from which to be heard...just a head on a stake. Let our troops know, maybe not the head on a stake, but certain punishment with definite and pre-determined prison time. Watch the crap halt.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'm a soldier, have been for the better part of the last decade and a half. I've been infantry, cavalry, and now I ride a desk in the Army JAG Corps.

I've seen both sides of the issue - wanting to do horrible things to the enemy in retaliation for wrongs committed against our troops, and defending the actions of an enemy against our troops.

I understand fully why the Iraqis are upset. They have every right. What upsets me are the Americans that are so upset at the "atrocities" they allege our troops have committed... Genocide is an atrocity. Killing innocent civilians is an atrocity. Taking embarassing and humiliating pictures isn't an atrocity any more than PVT Lynch was a hero...

Notice how this "news story" has had nearly 2 weeks of headline coverage? How many days were devoted to the 4 contractors who were killed, burned, and hung from a bridge? About 2. How many of you that protest the "atrocities" at this prison were aware of the murder of an American civilian, the beheading of whom was videotaped and then posted on the Al Jazeera network's website?

Yeah, not much newsworthy about that in an election year...

We haven't been attacked again on our soil since 9/11. We have lost hundreds of soldiers in this war, and the Iraqis have lost even more. But let's try really, really hard not to forget the several thousand that lost their lives when this whole party got started... Maybe the Iraqis weren't responsible for 9/11, but they sure didn't go out of their way to keep themselves out of our crosshairs (note that Khadafy made darn sure we knew he was bending over backwards to help our cause, and he used to be one of our main enemies). I'm glad, personally, that at least one of our leaders got off his duff and drew a line in the sand instead of across someone's blouse. There are certainly far more complex reasons for our presence in Iraq, I'm sure at least some of them deal with the oil in Iraq - I'm not naive. But there is still good in this fight, still a righteousness for toppling a real tyrant whose documented legitimate atrocities against his own people that can't be denied...

There is a guy from E-budo that is on the ground in Iraq... Hearing what he says from the front line kind of conflicts with a lot of the propaganda the liberal media would like to put into the ears of the American public... The folks he deals with daily are very happy that Sadaam is out of power, that his reign of terror is over. They are looking forward to having a say in their own country's government. Not exactly what CNN or Fox shows every night, is it? Of course not, because that'd make Kerry look like an a$$ and lend credence to Bush's cause.

There is always an extreme to every situation, an extreme to either side's opinion. What I've found, though, is when you weigh both sides, the Truth is found somewhere in the middle...

Survivor of a poorly led convoy does not equal hero.

Actions by a few individuals do not equal the behavior of many.

Keep it in perspective people, whether you agree with the war or not.

I was with you all the way up to you suggeting FOX news was a tool for the left. The FOX news I watch seems to celebrate everytime Bush looks even remotely good. Since when do they not want to make Kerry look bad????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Sean

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Actions by a few individuals do not equal the behavior of many.

I get PM'd and EM'd daily from friends over there who are being brought flowers, treats, etc., out of sheer joy by the locals that Hussein has been ousted. Please don't misunderstand: I'm extremely aware that we have done a good thing, even if some of the agenda leading to it was mixed. I'm not, by any stretch, a peacenik; some objectives may only be met by force. (after all, ain't this an MA forum?)

I do believe, however, that members of the American military should conduct themselves as ambassadors to the world, representing the higher road to which we should ascribe. This, and similar behavior, does not represent well.

Reading my own post, it looks like I'm saying "behead american soldiers". Nope. far from it. Just let them know, for certain, these actions are not OK, and will not be tolerated. As for the boneheads dragging our guys through the streets or planning car bombs, THOSE are the ones to be hunted and eliminated. Use Old World tactics against Old World foes...they understand "certainty of death", and know Americans are too civilized/soft to mede out the same severity of action as they are. Dig up some crazies, let them loose, and let the Old World foes have a taste of New World applications to an old idea.

Dave

Dave

 

[Makalakumu]

I think there is a difference because the president of Iraq ordered human rights violations and the president of the U.S. did not. People seem to equate the actions of a few soldiers to mean the U.S. intended it.

Second, most of these guys would not have been in jail if they simply'd thrown down their weapons after Saddam was caught. Obviously they still suported him and his type of leadership. I don't think they are going to like/hate us any more than they do already - and I don't really care. Let's just get the oil flowing to pay for this mess...

Mike - you're missing the point. The toture was US policy. These soldiers were ordered to do this. It may not go up to the President or even the Secratery of Defense, but it goes way higher then a few miscreant privates.

And you better believe that the Oil is flowing out of Iraq. It is not going to pay for this war though. We will do that. You and I. The Taxpayers, again, just like every war.

 

[Makalakumu]

Well I don't know Robert the "Military" I was in didn't allow soldiers to free flow info to the press, and how dare you call stripping people naked and putting a dog collar or panties on someones head torture. The rapes were carried out by Iraqis and any American involvment is then torture. This is frathouse stuff. If you want to see "real" torture, just watch some vids the Iraqis are going to release over the next few months.
Sean

Right. And the picture of the naked Iraqi chained to the bed with the attack dog growling and then the picture of the same Iraqi man writhing on the ground with blood streaming from his legs...sure that's not torture.

 

[rmcrobertson]

First off, a silly question--would you guys generally agree that John McCain knows a thing or two about the abuse of prisoners in wartime? HE seems pretty indignant about this crap--and that's good enough for me.

Not TORTURE, my ***. Tell you what...when the Communist dictatorship that y'all fantasize about takes over this country, I'll bring the cops to YOUR house. We'll strip you naked, threaten you with dogs, sleep deprive you, have you pose in sexual poositions with other men, take lotsa pictures. Then, we'll ask again: is this OK? And don't worry: we'll have all sorts of pious things to say about, "national security," and the like. And don't worry: we too will blame the reporters, and whoever else sticks up for you.

Also, I must say that I loved the, "I know: let's just have death squads!" argument. Beyond the moral implications of that horror--learn about your history, a least a LITTLE, willya? We supported death squads, let the CIA loose, all the nonsense that was called for by some of you guys...check up on the history of a) the overthrow of the democratically elected Mossadegh government in Iran, b) our support for the Shah, c) our support for SAVAK.

But hey, that worked! We've built democracies throughout the region, brought peace to the Middle East, established an absolutely-stable and unproblematic set of trading partners....oops, no, I forgot.

If you can't be moral, willya at least for pity's sake try to at least consider being pragmatic?

 

[Matt Stone]

I was with you all the way up to you suggeting FOX news was a tool for the left. The FOX news I watch seems to celebrate everytime Bush looks even remotely good. Since when do they not want to make Kerry look bad????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Sean

It was, like other things in my post, a dichotomous comparison...

I think neither Kerry nor Bush is the best for the country. It just happens that, in light of current events, Kerry stands to do more damage than any benefit his propagandists would like to say he'll provide. At another time, in another place, maybe Kerry would be alright. His brother, Bob (I think), was state senator for Nebraska for a while. I always thought he was an okay guy. This wannabe president, though, does precious little to quell the growing distrust I feel everytime I even see his picture.

Lastly, the media exists, like religious institutions, to propagate itself, not provide Truth. Truth is free, and the media sells itself to whoever wants to advertise during the available time slots. Therefore, the media does what it can to ensure lots and lots of viewers... That includes yellow journalism, spin, and distortion of facts to play to the political climate. I'm not saying one side is better or worse than the other - it's the nature of the Beast, in the same way that all politicians lie to their constituents. It's a given. So what I hear on CNN I try to balance against what I hear on Fox or local news. Like I said, Truth is usually somewhere in between...

 

[Rick Wade]

I get PM'd and EM'd daily from friends over there who are being brought flowers, treats, etc., out of sheer joy by the locals that Hussein has been ousted. Please don't misunderstand: I'm extremely aware that we have done a good thing, even if some of the agenda leading to it was mixed. I'm not, by any stretch, a peacenik; some objectives may only be met by force. (after all, ain't this an MA forum?)

I do believe, however, that members of the American military should conduct themselves as ambassadors to the world, representing the higher road to which we should ascribe. This, and similar behavior, does not represent well.

Reading my own post, it looks like I'm saying "behead american soldiers". Nope. far from it. Just let them know, for certain, these actions are not OK, and will not be tolerated. As for the boneheads dragging our guys through the streets or planning car bombs, THOSE are the ones to be hunted and eliminated. Use Old World tactics against Old World foes...they understand "certainty of death", and know Americans are too civilized/soft to mede out the same severity of action as they are. Dig up some crazies, let them loose, and let the Old World foes have a taste of New World applications to an old idea.

Dave

Dave

I with ya brother I can almost feel your rage through the screen.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

First off, a silly question--would you guys generally agree that John McCain knows a thing or two about the abuse of prisoners in wartime? HE seems pretty indignant about this crap--and that's good enough for me.

Not TORTURE, my ***. Tell you what...when the Communist dictatorship that y'all fantasize about takes over this country, I'll bring the cops to YOUR house. We'll strip you naked, threaten you with dogs, sleep deprive you, have you pose in sexual poositions with other men, take lotsa pictures. Then, we'll ask again: is this OK? And don't worry: we'll have all sorts of pious things to say about, "national security," and the like. And don't worry: we too will blame the reporters, and whoever else sticks up for you.

Also, I must say that I loved the, "I know: let's just have death squads!" argument. Beyond the moral implications of that horror--learn about your history, a least a LITTLE, willya? We supported death squads, let the CIA loose, all the nonsense that was called for by some of you guys...check up on the history of a) the overthrow of the democratically elected Mossadegh government in Iran, b) our support for the Shah, c) our support for SAVAK.

But hey, that worked! We've built democracies throughout the region, brought peace to the Middle East, established an absolutely-stable and unproblematic set of trading partners....oops, no, I forgot.

If you can't be moral, willya at least for pity's sake try to at least consider being pragmatic?

Touche'

I still think there's something to be said about the pragmatism of meeting force with force, particularly where the enemy will understand little else then the type of force they deliver.

 

[Touch Of Death]

It was, like other things in my post, a dichotomous comparison...

I think neither Kerry nor Bush is the best for the country. It just happens that, in light of current events, Kerry stands to do more damage than any benefit his propagandists would like to say he'll provide. At another time, in another place, maybe Kerry would be alright. His brother, Bob (I think), was state senator for Nebraska for a while. I always thought he was an okay guy. This wannabe president, though, does precious little to quell the growing distrust I feel everytime I even see his picture.

Lastly, the media exists, like religious institutions, to propagate itself, not provide Truth. Truth is free, and the media sells itself to whoever wants to advertise during the available time slots. Therefore, the media does what it can to ensure lots and lots of viewers... That includes yellow journalism, spin, and distortion of facts to play to the political climate. I'm not saying one side is better or worse than the other - it's the nature of the Beast, in the same way that all politicians lie to their constituents. It's a given. So what I hear on CNN I try to balance against what I hear on Fox or local news. Like I said, Truth is usually somewhere in between...

if Kerry is elected it will be because he is not Bush.

 

[Matt Stone]

if Kerry is elected it will be because he is not Bush.

Amen. Personally, though, I'll be voting for Dubya. Kerry gives me the willies, and will get my keister in tight spots without the cash money I'll need to get back out again. With Dubya I know my annual raise (to offset inflation) will actually do what it is supposed to (our raises under the Dems barely kept pace with inflation, if not lagged behind), and I know that things will continue to keep making staying in worth it.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Amen. Personally, though, I'll be voting for Dubya. Kerry gives me the willies, and will get my keister in tight spots without the cash money I'll need to get back out again. With Dubya I know my annual raise (to offset inflation) will actually do what it is supposed to (our raises under the Dems barely kept pace with inflation, if not lagged behind), and I know that things will continue to keep making staying in worth it.

You have given up a lot for those cost of living raises under Bush. Robert can list what you have given up off the top of his head; just ask him.
Sean

 

[michaeledward]

Astonishing.

And the assertions that the AMERICAN RED CROSS is just making this stuff up--to quote Twain, "Oh, carry me home to die, mother."

Thank you Robert! Thank you.

 

[michaeledward]

What have these time come to TOD and I actually agree.

Torture would be bamboo shoot under the fingernails snipping off a digit of each finger until you told them what they wanted to hear. Real torture isn't something that most american can stomach to hear about much less be able to watch. Those prisoners of war were humiliated not tortured. I have had more torture in a Kenpo Technique line than what those prinoners went through.

Perhaps you guys have heard that as many as 12 Iraqi's have died at the hands of US Soldiers ... those investigations are on going. (Currently, there are something like 3 dozen investigations going on).

If the choice is bamboo shoots under the fingernails or death at the hands of US Prison Guards, I'll choose bamboo shoots every time.

It is Torture.

mike

 

[michaeledward]

At another time, in another place, maybe Kerry would be alright. His brother, Bob (I think), was state senator for Nebraska for a while. I always thought he was an okay guy. This wannabe president, though, does precious little to quell the growing distrust I feel everytime I even see his picture.

Bob Kerrey and John Kerry are not now, nor ever have been related.

 

[marshallbd]

We are starting to see eye to eye. The problem is we couldn't make them classified because. They went from the Soldiers hands to the media, published and then to the government. Then the investigation started. Then they found more evidence and found more photos and the second group of photos was classified and will not be shown. If you listen to the news they said that President Bush would not release more photos because they were to graphic.

Yes, it looks as though we are beginning to. I just don't believe that they went directly to the media then the investigation began. I believe, based on what I heard in a clip of an interview of the General in charge (Don't recall his name), that the investigation began back in January.....based on that statement, it leads me to believe the military was investigating this and then the press got ahold of it and broke the story..... :asian:

 

[marshallbd]

What have these time come to TOD and I actually agree.

Torture would be bamboo shoot under the fingernails snipping off a digit of each finger until you told them what they wanted to hear. Real torture isn't something that most american can stomach to hear about much less be able to watch. Those prisoners of war were humiliated not tortured. I have had more torture in a Kenpo Technique line than what those prinoners went through.

How sad.....I too actually agree here.....While the treatment recieved by these folks is wrong, it does not constitute physical torture....But it is still a violation of thier basic human rights, and a form of psychological torture....They are still human beings..... :asian:

 

[marshallbd]

Instead of blaming the reporters and the whistleblower, lets put blame where it belongs. Those men involved in that kind of torture are the real "traitors," when you consider the multitude of problems this causes us as a nation.

PAUL

Amen! :asian:

 

[marshallbd]

I do believe, however, that members of the American military should conduct themselves as ambassadors to the world, representing the higher road to which we should ascribe. This, and similar behavior, does not represent well.

Yes I agree that we need to conduct ourselves in the manner that displays the values of this country as a whole, and not as a bunch of lunatics. :asian: