Iraqi Prisoners Abused, Humiliated, Tortured.

[Makalakumu]

More Information...

It looks like intelligence agencies were in charge of the interrogations and that these soldiers were ordered to commit these acts. The interviews from the actual soldiers involved state that the pictures were taken to provide documentation of these orders. (of course this does not explain why some of the soldiers are smiling and posing)

Starting in WWII the CIA began a program called Mind Kontrolle Ultra. This program was reputedly discontinued and declassified a while ago. If you look at this document...

http://www.michael-robinett.com/declass/c000.htm

The treatment of Iraqi prisoners for information purposes is neatly spelled out as MKU dogma. Perhaps this program has not dissappeared entirely.

What does this mean for us?

 

[MJS]

I'm a little late to this thread, and I didnt read everybodies post, so if this was something that was already touched on, forgive me.

It just amazes me how this entire thing gets blown up. You have American workers there, that get killed, mutilated, dragged through the streets, and hung from a bridge, with a nice pic. of the happy Iraqi killers laughing, but something happens to them, and oh my God...they protest, etc. Is there a difference here? Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying what we did, if its true, is right, I'm simply saying that these people have some nerve to make such a mountain out of this.

Mike

 

[Cruentus]

MJS,

First of all, "if it's true," is kind of a crazy thing to say, IMHO, considering we have the photo's to prove it. Plus, attrocities happened in war...go back and read my previous posts that explained why. Yes, they happened on both sides, but 2 wrongs don't make a right.

I think the wrong thing to do would be to make up excuses like, "They do bad things to us to!" The wrong thing, also, would be to demonize out entire military because of the wrong doings of a few. The right thing to do would be to try to think of some solutions to the problem.

 

[Makalakumu]

As more and more evidence becomes apparent, the saying "It was only the wrong doings of a few bad apples" sounds more like wishful thinking. As of this moment, International Red Cross reports from last year are surfacing that bespoke of widespread prisoner abuse. Many of these reports including the Pentagon's own investigations have been circulating the Defense Department since January. And everyone accused so far has been pointing up the chain of command. I think this could become something truly scandalous. Secratary Rumsfeld himself hinted at such, "There will be more pictures, more perpetrators and you can expect this to get much much worse..." in his hearing before Congress.

 

[MA-Caver]

artyon:
Hey! Just wondering... has anybody noticed how quickly and quietly the 9/11 investigation got buried in light of all the "horrible" abuse those poor iraqi's are getting ??? :idunno:

 

[MJS]

MJS,

First of all, "if it's true," is kind of a crazy thing to say, IMHO, considering we have the photo's to prove it. Plus, attrocities happened in war...go back and read my previous posts that explained why. Yes, they happened on both sides, but 2 wrongs don't make a right.

I think the wrong thing to do would be to make up excuses like, "They do bad things to us to!" The wrong thing, also, would be to demonize out entire military because of the wrong doings of a few. The right thing to do would be to try to think of some solutions to the problem.

Just seems odd that the photos have just surfaced now, and how long has this war been going on??? Where were all these photos before?? Dont misundertand what I'm saying here. I am NOT saying what happened is right, or that they treated us badly so why not do it to them. What I am saying is, I didnt see all of this coverage and investigation going on when our guys were dragged through the street.

Mike

 

[MJS]

artyon:
Hey! Just wondering... has anybody noticed how quickly and quietly the 9/11 investigation got buried in light of all the "horrible" abuse those poor iraqi's are getting ??? :idunno:

Of course. A new 'flavor of the week' was just put out in the open!!!

Mike

 

[Makalakumu]

artyon:
Hey! Just wondering... has anybody noticed how quickly and quietly the 9/11 investigation got buried in light of all the "horrible" abuse those poor iraqi's are getting ??? :idunno:

Ooooo...you are a dangerous man who sees to clearly.

:jedi1:

 

[Rick Wade]

First and formost I don't condone the actions our servicemen did!

However with that being said we should have handeled it on a level inside of the Army. I still think the Solders should be courts martialed. However (and this is the part were I will get in trouble) it kills me to see how liberal the American people are I am not condoning what we did to those prisoners. But that isn't half as bad as what other countries do to our prisoners. We don't cry out rage or demand justice. Much less do we get to sit in on their punishment hearings (like the guards would ever go to a hearing).
Since this all public now why are the commanding Officers or Commanding Generals being held to the same code that the Soldiers are being held to? I know this probably doesn't make sense to civilians but in the military even if you didn't perform the action you are still held responsible for your subordinates actions.

Here lies the problem with embeded reporters.

This all leaked out because a Soldier got to be friends with a reporter and showed him the photos.

While we are at it why doen't we just embed McDonalds to at least our Soldiers could be happy.

Respectfully
RWE

 

[marshallbd]

First and formost I don't condone the actions our servicemen did!

However with that being said we should have handeled it on a level inside of the Army. I still think the Solders should be courts martialed. However (and this is the part were I will get in trouble) it kills me to see how liberal the American people are I am not condoning what we did to those prisoners. But that isn't half as bad as what other countries do to our prisoners. We don't cry out rage or demand justice. Much less do we get to sit in on their punishment hearings (like the guards would ever go to a hearing).
Since this all public now why are the commanding Officers or Commanding Generals being held to the same code that the Soldiers are being held to? I know this probably doesn't make sense to civilians but in the military even if you didn't perform the action you are still held responsible for your subordinates actions.

Here lies the problem with embeded reporters.

This all leaked out because a Soldier got to be friends with a reporter and showed him the photos.

While we are at it why doen't we just embed McDonalds to at least our Soldiers could be happy.

Respectfully
RWE

Are you saying that the MP who turned the abuse of these prisoners in did the "WRONG THING"? We as a nation cannot condone such reprehensible acts as these and then expect our enemies to treat our POW's in a humane manner as the Geneva Convention stipulates. These Soldiers who perpetrated these acts should be punished publicly and swiftly. It shows the resolve of the US to keep this conflict/war/police action conducted in the manner prescribed by the Geneva Convention and international law governing war and conflict. Public or not, do you think this treatment would remain a secret? It would get out to enemy combatants, exagerated, and then our people who get captured would be treated worse than they already are....it would snowball..... :asian: Just my humble opinion..... :asian:

 

[michaeledward]

First and formost I don't condone the actions our servicemen did!

However with that being said we should have handeled it on a level inside of the Army. I still think the Solders should be courts martialed. However (and this is the part were I will get in trouble) it kills me to see how liberal the American people are I am not condoning what we did to those prisoners. But that isn't half as bad as what other countries do to our prisoners. We don't cry out rage or demand justice. Much less do we get to sit in on their punishment hearings (like the guards would ever go to a hearing).
Since this all public now why are the commanding Officers or Commanding Generals being held to the same code that the Soldiers are being held to? I know this probably doesn't make sense to civilians but in the military even if you didn't perform the action you are still held responsible for your subordinates actions.

Here lies the problem with embeded reporters.

This all leaked out because a Soldier got to be friends with a reporter and showed him the photos.

While we are at it why doen't we just embed McDonalds to at least our Soldiers could be happy.

Respectfully
RWE

You're kidding right ... "it kills me to see how liberal the American people are" ... what does this have to do with 'liberal' or anything else?

The Bush administration have been claiming for months now that conquering of the nation of Iraq took place because of the human rights abuses of Saddam Hussein (they are trying so hard to have the invasion not be about Weapons of Mass Destruction) ... and now WE get caught abusing human rights. How do you expect anyone to react ... 'Do as we say, not as we do' ?

This has nothing to do with embedded journalists. There was an extrememly courageous whistle-blower - and he was a soldier, not a reporter.

Activities of this type were to be expected. War is a messy business. The specific details were unknowable, but bad behavior is not unanticipated.

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

Are you saying that the MP who turned the abuse of these prisoners in did the "WRONG THING"? We as a nation cannot condone such reprehensible acts as these and then expect our enemies to treat our POW's in a humane manner as the Geneva Convention stipulates. These Soldiers who perpetrated these acts should be punished publicly and swiftly. It shows the resolve of the US to keep this conflict/war/police action conducted in the manner prescribed by the Geneva Convention and international law governing war and conflict. Public or not, do you think this treatment would remain a secret? It would get out to enemy combatants, exagerated, and then our people who get captured would be treated worse than they already are....it would snowball..... :asian: Just my humble opinion..... :asian:

I would say he did the wrong thing. If anyone should be court martialed, it should be the soldier leaking info to the press! As for the woman, she posed for a couple of shots at the urging of her boyfreind. A quick smile and a thumbs up is not systematic abuse. Her mere presence was by design; so, lay off that one. This has been under investigation since january and the military would have dealt with it. I don't see the good in having the whole world condem the US because of this. Don't get me wrong I enjoy watching the republicans squirm, but the damge the leak caused may cost more American lives than you can stomach, and you can weigh that against some guy with a pair of panties on his head.
Sean

 

[marshallbd]

I would say he did the wrong thing. If anyone should be court martialed, it should be the soldier leaking info to the press! As for the woman, she posed for a couple of shots at the urging of her boyfreind. A quick smile and a thumbs up is not systematic abuse. Her mere presence was by design; so, lay off that one. This has been under investigation since january and the military would have dealt with it. I don't see the good in having the whole world condem the US because of this. Don't get me wrong I enjoy watching the republicans squirm, but the damge the leak caused may cost more American lives than you can stomach, and you can weigh that against some guy with a pair of panties on his head.
Sean

Have you been in that particular region of the world? What we are dealing with is a large population of people who are fanatical when they believe they are wronged and NO JUSTICE is given. The MP who blew the whistle is a hero in my book for doing what he believed to be THE RIGHT THING TO DO! I agree that this could be/will be damaging to the troops that are there, but when punishments are meted out and that is made public it will help to regain the trust that this incident has lost us as a nation. THE GENEVA CONVENTION MUST BE ADHERED TO!!! I dont care if you like or dislike these people in Iraq, they are human beings and must be treated as such..... :asian:

 

[MisterMike]

I think there is a difference because the president of Iraq ordered human rights violations and the president of the U.S. did not. People seem to equate the actions of a few soldiers to mean the U.S. intended it.

Second, most of these guys would not have been in jail if they simply'd thrown down their weapons after Saddam was caught. Obviously they still suported him and his type of leadership. I don't think they are going to like/hate us any more than they do already - and I don't really care. Let's just get the oil flowing to pay for this mess...

 

[marshallbd]

I think there is a difference because the president of Iraq ordered human rights violations and the president of the U.S. did not. People seem to equate the actions of a few soldiers to mean the U.S. intended it....

But if you were not here in this country and you saw this on the news what would you think? What do you think the Iraqi people thought when they saw the things we had to say about Saddam? Did they believe it or was it just propaganda to them?

Second, most of these guys would not have been in jail if they simply'd thrown down their weapons after Saddam was caught....

True....

Obviously they still suported him and his type of leadership. I don't think they are going to like/hate us any more than they do already - and I don't really care. Let's just get the oil flowing to pay for this mess...

See my first point.....this could be why....or maybe they are all just fried from the desert heat? :asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Have you been in that particular region of the world? What we are dealing with is a large population of people who are fanatical when they believe they are wronged and NO JUSTICE is given. The MP who blew the whistle is a hero in my book for doing what he believed to be THE RIGHT THING TO DO! I agree that this could be/will be damaging to the troops that are there, but when punishments are meted out and that is made public it will help to regain the trust that this incident has lost us as a nation. THE GENEVA CONVENTION MUST BE ADHERED TO!!! I dont care if you like or dislike these people in Iraq, they are human beings and must be treated as such..... :asian:

Remind the US never to give you a security clearance. There will be no damage control now. Soldiers do not leak even the worst military secrets to the press. I say the interogations were bad and the wing of the military involved will remain untouched. The real issue is the MP and his freindship with the reporter.
Sean

 

[MisterMike]

But if you were not here in this country and you saw this on the news what would you think? What do you think the Iraqi people thought when they saw the things we had to say about Saddam? Did they believe it or was it just propaganda to them?

True.... See my first point.....this could be why....or maybe they are all just fried from the desert heat? :asian:

True, if they saw this on the news they may think ALL Americans are this way, but the thing is, people are saying it here from within this country.

 

[michaeledward]

I think there is a difference because the president of Iraq ordered human rights violations and the president of the U.S. did not. People seem to equate the actions of a few soldiers to mean the U.S. intended it.

Second, most of these guys would not have been in jail if they simply'd thrown down their weapons after Saddam was caught. Obviously they still suported him and his type of leadership. I don't think they are going to like/hate us any more than they do already - and I don't really care. Let's just get the oil flowing to pay for this mess...

Unfortuneately, I think you are not correct. According to the Red Cross, as many as 90 % of the imprisoned are there for no reason, other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The Associated Press says the Red Cross contradicts President George W. Bush's claims that abuses were "the wrongdoing of a few." Instead, abuse of prisoners by American soldiers -- at Abu Ghraib and at more than ten other facilities [!] observed -- was widespread and routine. Among other horrors, this included having some mauled by military dogs. And all of this was visited upon people who, the Red Cross says, shouldn't have been in jail in the first place, because the majority of them had been arrested apparently at random.

 

[marshallbd]

Remind the US never to give you a security clearance. There will be no damage control now. Soldiers do not leak even the worst military secrets to the press. I say the interogations were bad and the wing of the military involved will remain untouched. The real issue is the MP and his freindship with the reporter.
Sean

First of all, I am a Master Sergeant in the USAF reserve, I served 9 years on active duty before transfering to the reserves to pursue a career in Law Enforcement. I served proudly in Somalia, Desert Storm, Turkey (Operation Provide Comfort) and Bosnia as part of the United Nations Peace Keeping Force.

Secondly, I hold and have held for the last 17 years a Top Secret Security clearance, and have served as a Department of Defense Courier transporting Two Person Control Material of a Sensitive Compartmental nature.

From what I read, and I could be wrong, the MP did not leak it to the press, but instead reported the abuse to his superiors. Unfortunately there was an embedded reporter there who ran with it and here we are. If the MP who blew the whistle gave the info directly to the press then he too should be court martialed. However if he reported to his superiors the abuse he saw (as I have to believe he did) then he IS a HERO for stopping this un-necessary abuse. Please do not question my patriotism or sense of duty again.... :asian:

 

[Rick Wade]

As far as my liberal comment those Iraqi prisoners were not tortured! They were humiliated. When Jessica Lynch said she was taken advantage of everyone said that’s not true you were in a lot of pain and on heavy drugs your memory isn't right. When the Air Force General (Female I can't remember her name) was shot down She was raped repeatedly you never heard that in the mainstream media. Does anyone remember Scott Spiker? We didn't cry outrage when he was taken in the first war. He wasn't even returned to us same country different war. I was there January 19 2001 when the war started. It wasn't pretty. We as Americans have a much better society than Iraq lets remember that lets not cry outrage and keep dragging this out. Lets punish those Soldiers and get on with it.

Second no I am not saying what the solider did (the one that leaked it) was wrong I'm just saying that their lies the problems with embedded reporters. We as American think we want to know everything that goes on but we really don't. I am here to tell you that war isn't pretty. It is sticky, smelly mess. Do you want to see one of our Seals sneak up behind a guard and kill him quietly so that he won't make any noise?

Yes I do feel like what our Soldiers did was conduct unbecoming in the face of the enemy and they should be prosecuted. However why aren't their Commanding Officers and Generals also being held responsible?


In closing This will be my last entry on this topic because I know my view isn't a popular one. I won't even return to this thread as it brings back some really bad memories. If anyone wants to discuss this any more PM me I can talk about this one on one.

Very Respectfully