Iraqi Prisoners Abused, Humiliated, Tortured.

[Touch Of Death]

First of all, I am a Master Sergeant in the USAF reserve, I served 9 years on active duty before transfering to the reserves to pursue a career in Law Enforcement. I served proudly in Somalia, Desert Storm, Turkey (Operation Provide Comfort) and Bosnia as part of the United Nations Peace Keeping Force.

Secondly, I hold and have held for the last 17 years a Top Secret Security clearance, and have served as a Department of Defense Courier transporting Two Person Control Material of a Sensitive Compartmental nature.

From what I read, and I could be wrong, the MP did not leak it to the press, but instead reported the abuse to his superiors. Unfortunately there was an embedded reporter there who ran with it and here we are. If the MP who blew the whistle gave the info directly to the press then he too should be court martialed. However if he reported to his superiors the abuse he saw (as I have to believe he did) then he IS a HERO for stopping this un-necessary abuse. Please do not question my patriotism or sense of duty again.... :asian:

well as I have stated the military was dealing with the issue just fine until that reporter turned it into a circus. The individual responible for handing that reporter the photos is a traitor.
Sean

 

[marshallbd]

Yes I do feel like what our Soldiers did was conduct unbecoming in the face of the enemy and they should be prosecuted. However why aren't their Commanding Officers and Generals also being held responsible?

I too feel that punishment in this case should flow up as well as down.... :asian:

 

[Ceicei]

well as I have stated the military was dealing with the issue just fine until that reporter turned it into a circus. The individual responible for handing that reporter the photos is a traitor.
Sean

A traitor? To whom? Media does have a way of forcing the hand to be revealed at the card table and ending the game.

Since the military superiors did get the information about the abuse earlier, they were working on trying to resolve the issue (but probably not fast enough). Sooner or later, the information (including the pictures) would have got out somehow to the media. Better it be done sooner than later, as the damage would be much worse had the problem dragged on longer. Even then, it would have been a circus either way.

Now suppose the military did take care of the problem and cleaned it up *before* all this leaked to the media, would it have made any difference? Perhaps a bit, but the media would have run with the story anyway and trust would still have been damaged in the process--and I can hear people yell "conspiracy" and "cover up". Remember what happened when the reality of certain war time events popped up years later long after wars have ended?

- Ceicei

 

[Ceicei]

I too feel that punishment in this case should flow up as well as down.... :asian:

Yes, I agree.

- Ceicei

 

[marshallbd]

well as I have stated the military was dealing with the issue just fine until that reporter turned it into a circus. The individual responible for handing that reporter the photos is a traitor.
Sean

Besides, the pictures would have surfaced any way....Can you say Freedom of Information Act? :asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Besides, the pictures would have surfaced any way....Can you say Freedom of Information Act? :asian:

well, the first American was just beheaded, you guys decide if it was better now than later.
Sean

 

[Rick Wade]

Besides, the pictures would have surfaced any way....Can you say Freedom of Information Act? :asian:

OK I lied. I'm back sorry shoot me I got an email and couldn't resist.

Those pictures that surfaced were PERSONAL pictures. The Freedom of information act does not apply. Freedom of information act only applies to offical government documents. You are still watching to much mainstream media.

Respectfully
Richard English
Chief Petty Officer, USN (active)

 

[marshallbd]

well, the first American was just beheaded, you guys decide if it was better now than later.
Sean

Either way it's not a good situation.....First let me say my prayers go out to the family of the American that was just killed in that video....Secondly, I think that the FANATICS would have found another reason to kill him, this one was just convenient and at the right time for thier agenda.....

All I am trying to say is that the abuse needed to be brought to light and now that it has been it needs to be dealt with, swiftly, and harshly.... :asian:

 

[marshallbd]

OK I lied. I'm back sorry shoot me I got an email and couldn't resist.

Those pictures that surfaced were PERSONAL pictures. The Freedom of information act does not apply. Freedom of information act only applies to offical government documents. You are still watching to much mainstream media.

Respectfully
Richard English
Chief Petty Officer, USN (active)

Chief, you are partially correct, those pictures WERE personal property until they became the property of the US Government in the course of the investigation. Once that occured they became subject to the FOIA.... The only thing that could have kept them safe from the FOIA would have been to make them classified.... :asian:

 

[Rick Wade]

Chief, you are partially correct, those pictures WERE personal property until they became the property of the US Government in the course of the investigation. Once that occured they became subject to the FOIA.... The only thing that could have kept them safe from the FOIA would have been to make them classified.... :asian:

We are starting to see eye to eye. The problem is we couldn't make them classified because. They went from the Soldiers hands to the media, published and then to the government. Then the investigation started. Then they found more evidence and found more photos and the second group of photos was classified and will not be shown. If you listen to the news they said that President Bush would not release more photos because they were to graphic.

 

[MisterMike]

Unfortuneately, I think you are not correct. According to the Red Cross, as many as 90 % of the imprisoned are there for no reason, other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

So the Red Cross was there when they were arrested or captured eh? After what I have seen from them, their numbers couldn't be trusted at all at this point.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Astonishing.

I am glad to see that folks have so quickly picked up on the Secretary of Defense's lunatic claim that the problem is the PICTURES, the problem is the REPORTERS.

It's remarkable that some have so weak a notion of the role of a free press in a democracy. It's remarkable that some would actually claim that the media should keep silent about TORTURE (I am capitalizing because, apparently, the fact of TORTURE doesn't seem to garner quite the attention that I was brought up to believe it should) in some phony, "national interest."

I had this wacky idea that part of the reason for a free press--learned this in public schools in rural Maryland, 1958 to about 1964, hardly any radical hotbed--was that, in a DEMOCRACY, it is in the national interest to bring the abuses of the government to the light as quickly as possible. Beyond that, I had this wacky idea that TORTURE was wrong--learned that in Bible class, about the same time.

It is depressing to see people with so little knowledge of the history of their institutions, so little awareness of the reasons for a free press, and so little faith in their own country and its citizens, that they cheerfully throw out core ideas and principles that people have died for. Now that is un-American.

And the assertions that the AMERICAN RED CROSS is just making this stuff up--to quote Twain, "Oh, carry me home to die, mother."

 

[Touch Of Death]

Astonishing.

I am glad to see that folks have so quickly picked up on the Secretary of Defense's lunatic claim that the problem is the PICTURES, the problem is the REPORTERS.

It's remarkable that some have so weak a notion of the role of a free press in a democracy. It's remarkable that some would actually claim that the media should keep silent about TORTURE (I am capitalizing because, apparently, the fact of TORTURE doesn't seem to garner quite the attention that I was brought up to believe it should) in some phony, "national interest."

I had this wacky idea that part of the reason for a free press--learned this in public schools in rural Maryland, 1958 to about 1964, hardly any radical hotbed--was that, in a DEMOCRACY, it is in the national interest to bring the abuses of the government to the light as quickly as possible. Beyond that, I had this wacky idea that TORTURE was wrong--learned that in Bible class, about the same time.

It is depressing to see people with so little knowledge of the history of their institutions, so little awareness of the reasons for a free press, and so little faith in their own country and its citizens, that they cheerfully throw out core ideas and principles that people have died for. Now that is un-American.

And the assertions that the AMERICAN RED CROSS is just making this stuff up--to quote Twain, "Oh, carry me home to die, mother."

Well I don't know Robert the "Military" I was in didn't allow soldiers to free flow info to the press, and how dare you call stripping people naked and putting a dog collar or panties on someones head torture. The rapes were carried out by Iraqis and any American involvment is then torture. This is frathouse stuff. If you want to see "real" torture, just watch some vids the Iraqis are going to release over the next few months.
Sean

 

[Rick Wade]

Well I don't know Robert the "Military" I was in didn't allow soldiers to free flow info to the press, and how dare you call stripping people naked and putting a dog collar or panties on someones head torture. The rapes were carried out by Iraqis and any American involvment is then torture. This is frathouse stuff. If you want to see "real" torture, just watch some vids the Iraqis are going to release over the next few months.
Sean

What have these time come to TOD and I actually agree.

Torture would be bamboo shoot under the fingernails snipping off a digit of each finger until you told them what they wanted to hear. Real torture isn't something that most american can stomach to hear about much less be able to watch. Those prisoners of war were humiliated not tortured. I have had more torture in a Kenpo Technique line than what those prinoners went through.

 

[Cruentus]

I am glad to see that folks have so quickly picked up on the Secretary of Defense's lunatic claim that the problem is the PICTURES, the problem is the REPORTERS.

And that's what I ment about making excuses. The world is expected to except our attrocities because they are somehow more humane then identical attrocities of the third world. Also, too many people think along the lines of, "Attrocities happened in war on both sides, but we don't need the media reporting on attrocities that we commit!" We're so used to the media being used as a tool to manufacture our idea's that when they report outside our little idyllectic box, then we object.

I know it's hard, but I am waiting for people to climb outside the box to start thinking critically here. Yea, I know attrocities are committed by both sides. But, we can't make someone else stop their attrocities while they are in power, however we can do something about the way we handle things so that attrocities don't occur from our end. I believe that the U.S. is highly effecient in training it's soldiers; I believe that we have the capeabilities to train our soldiers in such a way that will reduce the attrocities from our side.

If anything, it is important for us to treat our prisoners humanely for strategic purposes. It has been proven that when the enemy believes that he will get humane treatment from his captors, then he is more likely to surrendor, meaning less casualties for both sides. This is a human condition, regardless of race or creed. When the enemy believes that they will be killed or tortured upon capture, they are far more likely to fight til the death, causing more inevitable casualties on themselves and their captors. Knowing this, how many of YOU would like to argue with me on my conjecture that most Fundamentalist Muslims would rather die then be treated like those men were treated in those photos? How many of you would bet against the probability that the photos (all over the same news that they get as well) will be used as propiganda to convince Muslim Men that this is what will happened if your captured by the americans?

So, for those of you who want to blow this off, yet claim to be "patriots," should really re-think the damage this has done to our own national security and credability, not to mention the moral and ethical problems.

As to blaming the reporters and whistleblowers....please. You gotta wonder why someone in the military would feel compelled to whistle blow his own buddies, considering that you can develop more comradary on active military duty then you could any where else. I think it's a bit hasty and illogical to think that the whistleblower is the one who is the traitor here, and is the one who is at fault; if the inhumane treatment was as bad as the pictures and accounts depict and nothing was being done about it, then what was he supposed to do? What was he supposed to do if his superiors weren't taking care of the problem? This man may very well be a bigger patriot then you might think.

Instead of blaming the reporters and the whistleblower, lets put blame where it belongs. Those men involved in that kind of torture are the real "traitors," when you consider the multitude of problems this causes us as a nation.

PAUL

 

[Cruentus]

Well I don't know Robert the "Military" I was in didn't allow soldiers to free flow info to the press, and how dare you call stripping people naked and putting a dog collar or panties on someones head torture. The rapes were carried out by Iraqis and any American involvment is then torture. This is frathouse stuff. If you want to see "real" torture, just watch some vids the Iraqis are going to release over the next few months.
Sean

Sorry...I gotta disagree with you and Rick.

Do you think those men piled up on each other nude, and posed for phalatio pics because the U.S. soldiers politely asked them too? Sorry...these men were beaten and tortured into submission. There are many accounts of beatings and physical damage far beyond what you see in the photo's.

How would you feel if someone came over your house, made you strip down, get on your knee's, and give some guy Falatio...but "just for the picture"? I doubt any of you guys would be writing "frathouse prank" to describe the event on the police report.

The Iraqi soldiers went through physical abuse.... or TORTURE...plain and simple. To say it isn't torture because we don't have pictures of what the vietcong did to our U.S. soldiers is the same logic as, "Well...sure he took your $30K honda...but that's not stealing! I heard about another guy who took a mercades that was worth $75K!" Sorry...stealing is stealing and torture is torture.

My momma always told me that 2 wrongs don't make a right, anyways.

 

[Touch Of Death]

And that's what I ment about making excuses. The world is expected to except our attrocities because they are somehow more humane then identical attrocities of the third world. Also, too many people think along the lines of, "Attrocities happened in war on both sides, but we don't need the media reporting on attrocities that we commit!" We're so used to the media being used as a tool to manufacture our idea's that when they report outside our little idyllectic box, then we object.

I know it's hard, but I am waiting for people to climb outside the box to start thinking critically here. Yea, I know attrocities are committed by both sides. But, we can't make someone else stop their attrocities while they are in power, however we can do something about the way we handle things so that attrocities don't occur from our end. I believe that the U.S. is highly effecient in training it's soldiers; I believe that we have the capeabilities to train our soldiers in such a way that will reduce the attrocities from our side.

If anything, it is important for us to treat our prisoners humanely for strategic purposes. It has been proven that when the enemy believes that he will get humane treatment from his captors, then he is more likely to surrendor, meaning less casualties for both sides. This is a human condition, regardless of race or creed. When the enemy believes that they will be killed or tortured upon capture, they are far more likely to fight til the death, causing more inevitable casualties on themselves and their captors. Knowing this, how many of YOU would like to argue with me on my conjecture that most Fundamentalist Muslims would rather die then be treated like those men were treated in those photos? How many of you would bet against the probability that the photos (all over the same news that they get as well) will be used as propiganda to convince Muslim Men that this is what will happened if your captured by the americans?

So, for those of you who want to blow this off, yet claim to be "patriots," should really re-think the damage this has done to our own national security and credability, not to mention the moral and ethical problems.

As to blaming the reporters and whistleblowers....please. You gotta wonder why someone in the military would feel compelled to whistle blow his own buddies, considering that you can develop more comradary on active military duty then you could any where else. I think it's a bit hasty and illogical to think that the whistleblower is the one who is the traitor here, and is the one who is at fault; if the inhumane treatment was as bad as the pictures and accounts depict and nothing was being done about it, then what was he supposed to do? What was he supposed to do if his superiors weren't taking care of the problem? This man may very well be a bigger patriot then you might think.

Instead of blaming the reporters and the whistleblower, lets put blame where it belongs. Those men involved in that kind of torture are the real "traitors," when you consider the multitude of problems this causes us as a nation.

PAUL

Well, did he go to the Chaplain? Did he refuse to participate until he felt something was being done? or did he just hand the photos to his "freind". We will find out those answers someday, but I will lean toward, "no". A hero would have thought about American lives at stake, and waited until a safer time. Your argument for combatants surrendering more easily is the same argument for not having the death penalty. (nothing to lose mentality) Just for my own info do you believe in the death penalty?
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Sorry...I gotta disagree with you and Rick.

Do you think those men piled up on each other nude, and posed for phalatio pics because the U.S. soldiers politely asked them too? Sorry...these men were beaten and tortured into submission. There are many accounts of beatings and physical damage far beyond what you see in the photo's.

How would you feel if someone came over your house, made you strip down, get on your knee's, and give some guy Falatio...but "just for the picture"? I doubt any of you guys would be writing "frathouse prank" to describe the event on the police report.

The Iraqi soldiers went through physical abuse.... or TORTURE...plain and simple. To say it isn't torture because we don't have pictures of what the vietcong did to our U.S. soldiers is the same logic as, "Well...sure he took your $30K honda...but that's not stealing! I heard about another guy who took a mercades that was worth $75K!" Sorry...stealing is stealing and torture is torture.

My momma always told me that 2 wrongs don't make a right, anyways.

watch the news over the next couple of months. Your about to be shown the difference.
Sean

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Humiliation not torture? Tell that to a kid who has gone through much the same thing, and is FUBARED for life because of it. Let's say it is, somehow, not torture....

WE ARE SUPPOSED TO BE THE GOOD GUYS!!!

I was taught Good Guys don't pull this kinda crap. It is not a humane, decent way for members of civilized society to treat another human being. And if we are there in a war on terror, then why are we acting like the dictator we deposed? I offer this, based on shyte that happened in Gulf 1 that got minimal play: What we get caught doing is only a fraction of what has actually been gettin'done. If we do not take a stance against mans inhumanity to man with our own nations troops, how can we justify using them to stop anothers' inhumanity towards man?

Marines & Navy guys reading this who've been to the Phillipines...do you remember Shiyt River? Those acts of indecent behavior by our troops were on the children of allies. What kind of heinous crap do you suppose the yahoo's from the appalachians, pumped up by the intra-military propaganda machine to hate all things Arab, have dreamt up to do to captives under their care?

I would like to imagine that, at some point in time, the U.S. will be able to actually behave in a manner consistent with its professed values.

Dave

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

watch the news over the next couple of months. Your about to be shown the difference.
Sean

TOD --

So we take the gloves off the SEAL'S & Delta guys, give the CIA back a dirty tricks department, and hunt down the perps who drag our soldiers through the streets to hack off their heads and bury them with bacon. That is a problem-focused solution, consistent with the conduct of war.

Tormenting naked Iraqi prisoners is not.