Iraqi Prisoners Abused, Humiliated, Tortured.

[Tgace]

I just hope that "good shoots" soldiers/MP's have been involved in dont get covered with the same blanket of abuse. Some prisoners will get shot if they are attempting an escape.

 

[Cruentus]

Come on, Paul. You know how this game is played.

Yea, I guess I do.

The evidence points to the idea that it was a top down order, but it may not have been very high up. We'll have to see what more evidence points too on that one.

 

[Cruentus]

I just hope that "good shoots" soldiers/MP's have been involved in dont get covered with the same blanket of abuse. Some prisoners will get shot if they are attempting an escape.

I hope not too.

 

[loki09789]

I don't think it is right, but it is easier to 'lower the bar' to the enemies level when they aren't an actual 'nation' or members of the same 'honor' club who adhere to the laws of land warfare and Geneva code.... mirroring is not a really big 'character' reaction to enemy action though is it?

 

[Tgace]

Where were inspections? Where was the leadership? Squad Leaders, Platoon Sgt.,First Sgt., Squad Leader, Company Commander.....Paul, you know that if we had did something like this in Bosnia, the whole company would have known in short order.

 

[loki09789]

Where were inspections? Where was the leadership? Squad Leaders, Platoon Sgt.,First Sgt., Squad Leader, Company Commander.....Paul, you know that if we had did something like this in Bosnia, the whole company would have known in short order.

Exactly why I am not buying the "top down order" excuse. Firstly, when the words come out of a private's mouth, what do they really mean by "top down?" Hell, they have no idea where the order came from other than an NCO/Officer from their chain of command or NCO/Officer's that their chain of command allows to give orders to these non rates.

You know what is right and wrong. You know that you are not only allowed, but obligated to refuse unlawful orders... these pictures show how important strong small unit leadership is to a units morale and conduct. The intell/interrogation operations should have been conducted by Intel people, not MP's - especially reserve/NG troopies. The unit commander's should have told the intel guys to do so themselves - MP's might have run camp security, but that isn't the same as being intell/interrogation trained.

 

[Tgace]

Absofrigginloutely

 

[Ender]

OK ... sarcasm ... got it ...

You know, if you click with the little arrow on the blue words with the line underneath them, it brings you to a new web page ... on that page .. you do get to read more information.... like this ...

and


by the way ... thanks for the chuckle ... this thread needed it a bit, and certainly I did ...

I wanna see these Clerics leading thousands of demonstrators shouting "Allah Ackbar...Death to the Al-Qaeda infidels!...and I wanna see Al-Zaqwari hung in effigy and a picture of of Osama Bin Laden burned with them dancing around the picture......And I wanna see condemnation on every Arab newspaper and TV in the region from these clerics...These little lip service remarks don't cut it....nods..that should be enough for me....*L

oh, and leave the condenscending attitude at the door....it's so cliche' from your type.

 

[MA-Caver]

Exactly why I am not buying the "top down order" excuse. Firstly, when the words come out of a private's mouth, what do they really mean by "top down?" Hell, they have no idea where the order came from other than an NCO/Officer from their chain of command or NCO/Officer's that their chain of command allows to give orders to these non rates.

You know what is right and wrong. You know that you are not only allowed, but obligated to refuse unlawful orders... these pictures show how important strong small unit leadership is to a units morale and conduct. The intell/interrogation operations should have been conducted by Intel people, not MP's - especially reserve/NG troopies. The unit commander's should have told the intel guys to do so themselves - MP's might have run camp security, but that isn't the same as being intell/interrogation trained.

This is true, but be that as it may. When you're in charge of "dangerous" prisoners and the opportunity to do unto them what they've been doing to your buddies... remember what happened a few weeks ago when they dragged U.S. bodies through the streets? Opportunities for "pay-back" are plenty when you got days and days of being alone with someone who would do or have done the same. I'm not saying the mentality is/isn't there (seems that it had to be for the torture/abuse to happen) but it is a question of ethics that we as Americans should be civilized enough NOT to fall prey to that trap. It would help for the rest of the world to see that we (as Americans) are above such barbarism.
Yeah, I know I'm falling victim to wanting to have and believe in the America's "The Good Guys Image"... but, well ... dammit? Are we are or aren't we? I still want/like to be able to hold my head up and proudly say I'm an American!! But with atrocities like this... how we treat our prisoners and countries that we "say" we're trying to help... might as well wear a swaztika on one arm and a hammer and sickle on the other. What those soliders did (are still doing???) is no better/different/excusable than the treatment of the aforementioned governments/regimes/dictatorships (and they're failed governments mind you... a red flag if we ever needed one :redcaptur), have done to their prisoners.
Aren't we supposed to have the standards that everyone else looks up to and not DOWN on?

p.s. I realize that not everyone on this board is an American.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Hey, here's a little number from the latest news, available on my Microsoft browser front page:

"The father of Nick Berg, the American beheaded in Iraq, directly blamed President Bush and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld for his son's death. "My son died for the sins of George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld. This administration did this."

But I know that won't bother anyone: personal attacks are so much easier.

I continue to be amazed by the utter failure on the part of some to recognize--or to admit, perhaps--a completely unacceptable series of violations of very basic moral precepts. 'Scuse me if I'm wrong, but aren't some of you the guys who keep lecturing the likes of me on the need for Solid, Timeless, Unchanging Moral Values? Or do these just apply when--I'm trying to put this politely--we're talking about WASPs? Or, I know--moral precepts apply only when it's convenient.

I continue to be amazed by the reiteration of the notion that I keep floating away from the Real Point on the part of people who keep dragging poor Nicholas Berg into it.

Why haven't I been parroting the sentiments you want me and other to parrot about terrorism's being wrong? Because, gee, I thought normal adults pretty much knew that already. Because, gee, I was brought up to believe that Americans believed that they could trust other Americans, that we had common interests that ran deeper than minor political differences. Because, gee, I was brought up to believe that this was a great and strong country that was confident enough to tolerate dissent, that didn't need to crush opposition because the whole point was to try and find out the truth, that was stronger for our disagreements. Because, gee, they taught me that our Founding Fathers were great men precisely because they believed and said things that were dangerous and disagreeable. Because, gee, they taught me that this country was, "the last best hope," of humankind precisely because WE WERE SOMETHING NEW, AND BETTER, AND WE DID NOT STOOP TO THE EVIL THAT THE BAD GUYS DID, NO MATTER WHAT THE PROVOCATION. Hell, they even taught me that America set an example of justice, peace, and tolerance for the rest of the world to follow.

I realize it's comforting for a couple of you guys to believe that I was raised by Lesbian communists just outside Beijing, but the fact of the matter is that I will bet you I was raised far more traditionally than anybody on this thread, with the possible exception of Mr. Edward. And you know what they taught me, way back then? That my country was better than torturers and bullies and dictators and imperialists and liars.

So--were they wrong to teach me that?

Some other time, we can get into the whole 'nother issue of a martial artist's response to this stuff. Guess they got that wrong too--I always read, and was taught, that a martial artist shows restraint and compassion at all times, and never bullies. They didn't even bring up the whole issue of whether a martial artist was allowed to torment the helpless, whatever the reason or cause might be.

Guess they figured that the answer to that last bit was obvious.

 

[RRouuselot]

I wanna see these Clerics leading thousands of demonstrators shouting "Allah Ackbar...Death to the Al-Qaeda infidels!...and I wanna see Al-Zaqwari hung in effigy and a picture of of Osama Bin Laden burned with them dancing around the picture......And I wanna see condemnation on every Arab newspaper and TV in the region from these clerics...These little lip service remarks don't cut it....nods..that should be enough for me....*L

oh, and leave the condenscending attitude at the door....it's so cliche' from your type.

Agreed!!!!

 

[RRouuselot]

Just to add some of my own twisted thoughts on the subject.............I work on a military base.

First comment I heard was "why were they so stupid to take photos?"

I would have to agree.....look at the Nazis.....they took photos as well and it lead to some pretty damaging evidence.

Another comment I heard was "it’s a real war..real prisoners....not like Hogan’s Heros TV program....it’s R-E-A-L"

Again I agree.....things like this and the Nick Berg incident are horrifying but that’s what wars are....horrifying.

 

[michaeledward]

oh, and leave the condenscending attitude at the door....it's so cliche' from your type.

I'm sorry ... you said that they did not condemn the acts. But in the very article I referred to, there was a variant of the word 'condemn' at least twice.

I can only assume that you did not expose yourself to the report because a) you do not know how or b) you do not care to know another point of view.

In this very thread, it has been pointed out that reports of prisoner abuse from the International Committee of the Red Cross come from more than 10 detention facilities in Iraq, yet some continue to put forth the arguement that it was just a 'few bad apples'. I suppose my type gets frustrated when people choose to remain unaware of what is going on around them.

Mike

 

[old_sempai]

As Sherman said "war is hell." However, does anyonce recall hearing similar outcries from the western media during the 1st Gulf war when Jeffrey Zahn appeared on Iraqi & Arab TV with cigarette burns on his face, with his eyes and face also showing the effects of having been beaten. Or of the Female American Helicopter pilot immediately raped after capture, or of the 3 British Commandoes of Bravo Two Zero that were tortured to death by Saddam's goons. As for Mr. Berg his death is abhorrent, but then to his passport identified him as Jewish and also had an Israeli stamped affixed to it showing he had also traveled to Israel. He may have been a kind hearted adventurer according to his family, but was he that naive that he did not recognize that he was going in harms way, and as a civilian no less. His family did, but they were unsuccessful in their efforts to dissuade him from going, and now they chose to lay the blame elsewhere.

 

[marshallbd]

As Sherman said "war is hell." However, does anyonce recall hearing similar outcries from the western media during the 1st Gulf war when Jeffrey Zahn appeared on Iraqi & Arab TV with cigarette burns on his face, with his eyes and face also showing the effects of having been beaten. Or of the Female American Helicopter pilot immediately raped after capture, or of the 3 British Commandoes of Bravo Two Zero that were tortured to death by Saddam's goons. As for Mr. Berg his death is abhorrent, but then to his passport identified him as Jewish and also had an Israeli stamped affixed to it showing he had also traveled to Israel. He may have been a kind hearted adventurer according to his family, but was he that naive that he did not recognize that he was going in harms way, and as a civilian no less. His family did, but they were unsuccessful in their efforts to dissuade him from going, and now they chose to lay the blame elsewhere.

I understand about the passport....I made a few trips to Israel on a Government passport and had stamps from Israel....when the time came to go to the middle east, I ordered a replacement passport with no stamps to avoid the hassles that might come with having a passport with Israeli stamps in it. :asian:

 

[marshallbd]

As Sherman said "war is hell." However, does anyonce recall hearing similar outcries from the western media during the 1st Gulf war when Jeffrey Zahn appeared on Iraqi & Arab TV with cigarette burns on his face, with his eyes and face also showing the effects of having been beaten. Or of the Female American Helicopter pilot immediately raped after capture, or of the 3 British Commandoes of Bravo Two Zero that were tortured to death by Saddam's goons.

I dont remember there being as much of an uproar about the abuse our people recieved in the Desert Storm.. as there is now..... :asian:

 

[old_sempai]

and fail to provide background data that would serve to put what they report in proper perspective. Consequently, not many are aware that anyone with an Israeli Stamp on their passport is generally not able to travel to Muslim countries, such as Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia or Iran. Mr Berg not only had an Israeli stamp on his passport, but had his prayer shawl with him as well. It makes one wonder was he that naive not to realize he was putting a bullseye on his back especially since Zawaqari along with the rest of the Al Qaida followers are extremely passionate with regard to their hatred of Israel and Jews.

 

[Makalakumu]

I also have to wonder. What would you think of all this if YOU had someone fighting over in Iraq or someone that you loved die on 9/11? Would you have a different outlook then?

I'm still waiting for how YOU would handle this situation????

I'm still waiting to see this link between Iraq and 911? People sure have this stuck in there mind and there is absolutely no evidence. Everytime I hear this, all the samurai in me thinks of is funshi...what a disgrace to rational thought.

 

[Makalakumu]

Opinions are like.....(the same saying for excuses).

Solutions are rarer and tougher to come up with. Some people are very effective at cutting down ideas, but not so effective at submitting their own for examination.

What really can a person do in this situation? At best, I will say you have high expectations. At worst...well, never mind. I know that I don't have enough information to suggest anything on my own. That is where these discussions help.

 

[Makalakumu]

Come on, Paul. You know how this game is played. The 'top down order' is just as implausible as anything else. They CYAed themselves because they never 'ordered' any of these specific acts. They did put pressure on fast results of interrogation of prisoners that trickled down to intelligence agencies getting creative and encouraging mental and physical abuse that the troops carrying such acts - generally National Guard/Reservists with far less man hours of professional reinforcement and strong leadership than active duty components - were justified 'because they told me too.' Well that doesn't fly for me because straight from my Guidebook for Marines:

"..You must never kill, torture or mistreat a prisoner, because such actions are a violation of the law and because prisoners may provide you vital information....Treating a prisoner badly will also discourage other enemy soldiers from surrendering.... this [proper treatment] will encourage the enemy to treat his prisoners (our buddies) well."

Now, if these reports aren't misrepresentations, exagerations of interrogation techniques no different than those that our soldiers endure during Escape and Evasion training. If these photos/reports of sexual abuse and attrocities aren't just urban legends being planted and used to the benefit of the Military INtel(MI) folks to intimidate prisoners, I say nail all involved for sacrificing professionalism for speed of intelligence - and based on the military response, they are of the same mind.

If this is all information leaking and in the end it is no different than the myth building that Mid-East terror groups use to believe about Marines back in the '80's (you had to kill a family member to get into the Marines...was the myth), then it is a game that is dangerous and can loose the local crowd because they aren't in on it.

Respectfully, Paul, I think you missed this document.

http://www.michael-robinett.com/declass/c000.htm

Torture and mental duress were an official part of US policy in the past. Why would that just go away? MKU may be a project that was discontinued, but it does not mean that it didn't evolve.

Unfortunately there is no way for the average person to find much out about this matter. The amount of obfuscation in this case is very suggestive though. The only thing I can think of when ever I hear anything from any side in this case is that one needs to be VERY skeptical.

These acts frighten me (911, Nick Berg, Prisoner Abuse, ect...). I can't imagine what was going through the peoples minds when they partake in such brutality.