I got in a fight. I really didn't want to but it happened.

[drop bear]

Wrong. Learn to recognize the monkey dance. Once he started, it wasn't going to stop until you fought him. You say, loudly, "Hey, man, I don't want any trouble. Please step back and I'll leave." If he does, you leave. But he won't. At that point he makes a threatening gesture, see? You feel genuinely threatened. Take that bastard out. Immediately.

So you refuse to come up with a solution to the monkey dance dynamic. Then get forced into a situation where you have to gbh a guy.

You are better off being versatile enough to handle different sorts of attacks so that you can handle them accordingly.

Proportionate use of force is a necessary tool for self defence.

Ironically this is the same idea when someone says they don't need grappling skills because they don't go to the ground.

 

[Phobius]

Wrong. Learn to recognize the monkey dance. Once he started, it wasn't going to stop until you fought him. You say, loudly, "Hey, man, I don't want any trouble. Please step back and I'll leave." If he does, you leave. But he won't. At that point he makes a threatening gesture, see? You feel genuinely threatened. Take that bastard out. Immediately.

I would say this does not hold up in court in most countries. First of all it is very aggressive, so if the guy would reply by taking a step closer and saying "I just wanted you to know." you would bash his skull in? Or if he said nothing you would bash his skull in?

You forget something, you are a trained fighter. This is not self defense but ego stroking and lack of anger management, things that can lead people to jail.

Just learn to de-escalate properly, the key is to let them know they are right. No point beating up a guy saying that you are a better fighter than they are, right? Besides it will keep the party going and your friends will remain your friends for a while longer.

Fighting is a last resort, not a first. The moment you punch the guy he is involved on another level. It is not like he is gonna go get his friends and man-handle you because you talked with him, but because you wanted to beat his *** to the ground.

EDIT: Not saying fighting is bad, but make sure there is something worth defending before fighting or even starting a fight. Such as guys jumping or attacking someone else and you intervening, in such a scenario de-escalation is good attempt but far less likely to work.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I talked to her about it and her and her husband said I should have just told them about it, then they would have told him to leave. Then if he didn't leave they would call the police to make him leave.

They said that, but in reality while I am sure they would have been happy to do that, it would have been a worse outcome for their party (which I'm presuming is why you stayed) then either you leaving or what actually happened.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I would say this does not hold up in court in most countries. First of all it is very aggressive, so if the guy would reply by taking a step closer and saying "I just wanted you to know." you would bash his skull in? Or if he said nothing you would bash his skull in?

You forget something, you are a trained fighter. This is not self defense but ego stroking and lack of anger management, things that can lead people to jail.

Just learn to de-escalate properly, the key is to let them know they are right. No point beating up a guy saying that you are a better fighter than they are, right? Besides it will keep the party going and your friends will remain your friends for a while longer.

Fighting is a last resort, not a first. The moment you punch the guy he is involved on another level. It is not like he is gonna go get his friends and man-handle you because you talked with him, but because you wanted to beat his *** to the ground.

EDIT: Not saying fighting is bad, but make sure there is something worth defending before fighting or even starting a fight. Such as guys jumping or attacking someone else and you intervening, in such a scenario de-escalation is good attempt but far less likely to work.

You would be mistaken. There is a huge difference between the monkey dance and someone leaning in to ask directions to the toilet.

I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice. My opinion is that when someone rants in your face, saying they're going to kick your ***, strips off their shirt, you would be correct to be reasonably in fear of being assaulted. At that point (reasonably in fear) you are free to defend yourself until the threat no longer exists.

The fact that a person is a martial artist has zero bearing on self defense laws in the USA.

 

[jks9199]

Wrong. Learn to recognize the monkey dance. Once he started, it wasn't going to stop until you fought him. You say, loudly, "Hey, man, I don't want any trouble. Please step back and I'll leave." If he does, you leave. But he won't. At that point he makes a threatening gesture, see? You feel genuinely threatened. Take that bastard out. Immediately.

I'm going to disagree with you on the nature of this encounter, Bill. This was a Monkey Dance. It wasn't going to end until the dominance issue got settled. There are a couple ways that could have happened. One was a fight. Another would have been to completely break the script. Do something so completely unexpected that it absolutely derails him. Buy the guy a beer, flirt with him, agree to step outside and close the door behind him. (OK, that's more a deflection than an actual derailment, but it works!) A different approach -- though it seems to have been a little unlikely to be available -- is to be the "big dog." Ever see a rotty molested by a little lap dog? Mostly, they ignore it -- maybe a quick put it in its place move if it gets too annoying. Think of Sean Connery's character in Rising Sun dealing with the bodyguard...

Why do I say that this was a Monkey Dance? Let's look back to the OP:

Long story short, someone brought up I train in martial arts, then some idiot said martial arts is ********. I didn't say anything, I just ignored it because I don't care what some moron thinks. My friends laughed about it in an uncomfortable kind of way and then he continued with "You don't really know how to fight until you hit the streets or been to prison. All that other **** doesn't work." I said ok that's your opinion. Then he started getting in my face and saying things like "You want to prove it? We can go right now." I said look, I don't bully kids. Then he pushed me and well, I didn't really move much from the push, he kind of pushed himself off my body. I did nothing and just looked at him, he continued taunting me.

Then he took off his shirt, and started flexing, I wish I was joking but this guy was serious. He looked like a tweaker, I could practically count his ribs and I couldn't help but laugh. which of course made him angry.. We argued a little more and eventually he threw a punch.

The agitator throws out a comment meant to diminish Ironbear in the eyes of the crowd. Ironbear buys into the discussion, which gives him the fuel to "prove" himself by making the big bad martial artist back down. Ironbear responds with "I don't bully kids" which escalates the MD. He's called the agitator a kid... so the agitator steps it up, tries to prove himself, by flexing and taking off his shirt ("see how big and ripped I am!") and moves into the chest bump/push phase of the Monkey Dance. I'll bet you that punch was a looping overhand right...

Pure, social violence and status fight. A Monkey Dance.

But I do agree -- once it's on, it's on. Handle it quickly, efficiently, and thoroughly enough to end it. How much harm you do depends on lots of factors, from personal beliefs to legal standards.

 

[Kickboxer101]

Nah you were in the right if the cops got called you wouldn't get in trouble since he started it and you didn't full out to hurt him and stopped when you could

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm going to disagree with you on the nature of this encounter, Bill. This was a Monkey Dance.

I said it was a monkey dance as well.

Let's clarify. A monkey dance is often described as a dominance struggle among male primates, in this case humans. It is meant to establish a pecking order. It is often an adolescent rite of passage, although some men never outgrow the need to attempt to establish dominance over other men into their 40s and 50s and even beyond.

When two parties voluntarily engage in the monkey dance, there may or may not be violence. Often one backs down, ending the confrontation and establishing that he is submissive to the one who doesn't back down, who is dominant.

However, when one party has no desire to engage and the other party does, there is nearly always going to be violence. Why? Because dominance is not established until both parties engage in the escalation and one backs down. If one party refuses to play, dominance is not established. Therefore, the male who wants to establish dominance is left with one-sided escalation until the other party is completely run off, or engages.

That is why I advised the OP to leave as soon as the dance begins - if possible.

If it is not possible, the dance continues, as we see from the OP's narrative. Eventually the OP did in fact escalate, even without meaning to, as you noted.

Here is where I differ from some of the others giving advice.

In my experience, the monkey dance at this point is going to escalate until there is an actual fight. Most self-defense laws in the USA (I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice) state words to this effect:

"An individual who has not or is not engaged in the commission of a crime at the time he or she uses force other than deadly force may use force other than deadly force against another individual anywhere he or she has the legal right to be with no duty to retreat if he or she honestly and reasonably believes that the use of that force is necessary to defend himself or herself or another individual from the imminent unlawful use of force by another individual."​

That's Michigan, but other states, IMHO, are similar.

It means you don't have to wait until the first punch is thrown. "Honestly and reasonably believes" are key here. The person being confronted has to believe that they in in imminent danger of unlawful force by Joe Shirtless here. And most of us have heard that the 'reasonable man' test means as close to objective as we can get - we can't just make up our own definition of what is 'reasonable' and what isn't.

However, given that we all seem to agree that the 'monkey dance' can and often does end in violence, it is pretty clear to me that once the dance starts - the threats, the intimidating gestures and especially the shirt removal, the fight has already begun. The danger is extreme, and unlawful force on the part of Joe Shirtless is about to begin. HIT THAT PUNK NOW, AND HIT HIM AS HARD AS YOU CAN, is my opinion. Do not stop hitting him until the threat is eliminated. I interpret that to mean he is no longer capable of hitting me.

The moment someone says to me, "You ain't so tough, I'll bet I could..." It's go time. He threatened me. I feel threatened. Any reasonable man would feel threatened. I'm not going to let him screw up his courage to the sticking point, bump chests with me, throw fake punches to try to make me flinch, rip of his shirt, etc, etc. We're not going there. The fight has begun and I am legally defending myself from imminent assault by yon pimpleface.

Why wait? All it can do is increase the odds of you being hemmed in by a crowd, having his buddies wander over to witness his superlative display of testosterone, let him get pumped up into an agitated state, etc.

The initial response, as I said, is to try to leave. I also said one should loudly and clearly state that they do not want to fight, and make it clear with a non-threatening posture. The crowd needs to be able to say to the cops that the OP was trying to avoid fighting but was pushed into it by the guy who is laying in a bloody pool of mush on the floor.

As martial artists, we train to move from a non-threatening posture into full-on attack mode, and that's what should happen here. The moment dirtbag lifts his arm to punch, or moves in too close to chest-bump, or says he is about to blah blah blah, that's it. We're in full engagement mode. He is not expecting that response, because it's against the rules of the monkey dance. Yep, it is. Break those rules.

Buy the guy a beer, flirt with him, agree to step outside and close the door behind him. (OK, that's more a deflection than an actual derailment, but it works!) A different approach -- though it seems to have been a little unlikely to be available -- is to be the "big dog."

I only see this work with sentient beings who don't actually want to fight and are looking for a reason to back down without appearing to have lost. Teenagers are not sentient beings, not yet. Young men who start the dance at a party are not sentient beings. It's all beer, women, and ego at that point. The fight is going to happen. The trick is in realizing that you're in a fight before the first punch gets thrown.

It is also a trick that requires considerable skill to master. Law enforcement types often have to react this way, and they develop the skills. There are a thousand ways you can say "Hey, dude, let's just chill, let me buy you a beer," and 999 of those will get the beer bottle broken over your head. Tone, attitude, verbal and non-verbal cues, it's a tricky response to master, and it also requires a receptive audience, which I believe from the OP's description that this yahoo was not.

But I do agree -- once it's on, it's on. Handle it quickly, efficiently, and thoroughly enough to end it. How much harm you do depends on lots of factors, from personal beliefs to legal standards.

So I think the only place we may disagree is on where the 'on' switch is in this continuum of violence. No problem, I am willing to admit I could be wrong about the OP's stated situation - I was not there. And yes, personal beliefs enter into it. However, speaking for myself, I have done my due diligence on the laws of self-defense where I live. I feel I know where I stand with regard to when I may and may not engage in self-defense. And as to the degree of violence I am willing to inflict, that all depends on what Joe Brokennose feels like doing. He stands up after I knock him down, he's getting knocked down again. And I have no problems busting faces, bones, cartilage, or whatever else presents itself. His option to not get serious f'd up ended when he chose me as his target. He'd do the same to me if he could.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

All:

On reflection, I realize that my responses here were the result of my current position - as a man who is getting older. A silverback if you will.

We are not as likely to be pulled into the monkey dance. I would not be at a party where such things happen, I would not be a similarly-situated target of opportunity for a loudmouth punk.

However, we also are aware of our mortality. We are often somewhat more fragile in places, we don't heal as fast, we're not as fast as we were. We cannot afford to be drawn into a fist-fight, and we can't let ourselves be picked to death by crows.

So that has an impact on my response. I cannot and will not allow myself to be the target of slowly-building rage and aggression. At the first sign of it, I have to leave immediately if I can, or utterly destroy whatever threatens me if I cannot. There can't be a test of manhood or a mutual show of force. There cannot be a case where I just take my whippin' and get on with my life - it might kill me literally to take a beating from a young guy who knows his business. I have little stamina, but I do have strength. I have to judge when to use it, but if I use it, it's all in, all or nothing. Nothing held back, young punk is going to get it all; that's all I have.

That would not be the appropriate response, I guess, for a younger guy. For me, I think it's about the only alternative I have. Watch a silverback gorilla fight a young challenger some time. It's freaking brutal. If the young upstart doesn't get the upper hand, the silverback runs him off entirely or kills him. Neither get a second chance.

With an older guy versus a younger guy, it's not about dominance; it is about survival. I want to live. If Joe-Joe the Rat Faced Boy doesn't realize he started a fight that ends with him on a stretcher, or me dead, that's his fault.

 

[JP3]

You're young, there was a girl involved and that always messes up thought processes - old or young.

Here's a key truth, which Drop alluded to above. Close a fist and hit someone in the face and blood happens, either yours or theirs. Here, it was apparently his, not yours, which is a lucky outcome for you. Before I started to use the open hand stuff, then the much softer art stuff, knuckles get bloody on peoples teeth. It's not a good outcome, and it makes you very obviously a violence-doer in the eye of the police officer who shows up. As said above - though I agree it's funnier but would have probably simply initiated the fight sooner - you could have slapped him.

Or, and as also stated above... close witht he guy, engage briefly in the tussle, find your way to a hold/pin of some kind, and just sit on him. No muss, no fuss and the guy is handled and not hurt, and if necessary, cops come and remove him.

Engaging in stand-up hand-to-hand is for sport, for the ring/octagon, and people get paid to do it. Next time, get the guy to the ground, preferably with you still standing, and then just hold him until the situation defuses. That can happen when the guy calms down and starts to whine (yes, that happens and it is embarrassing for everyone, including you), he just calms down and asks to be let go (you have to judge the veracity of this for yourself, but at that point there's generally another advantage in play - that of numbers of your friends), or the cops or other authority figure shows up.

 

[Ironbear24]

His brother talked to me, I don't know how he got my phone number but basically he said he is sorry for his brothers action and he or him won't bother me again.

So I guess that's it. Good thing his family was cool about this and didn't further escalate it.

 

[drop bear]

You would be mistaken. There is a huge difference between the monkey dance and someone leaning in to ask directions to the toilet.

I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice. My opinion is that when someone rants in your face, saying they're going to kick your ***, strips off their shirt, you would be correct to be reasonably in fear of being assaulted. At that point (reasonably in fear) you are free to defend yourself until the threat no longer exists.

The fact that a person is a martial artist has zero bearing on self defense laws in the USA.

The opposing lawer will use it in argument.

 

[crazydiamond]

Someone mentioned he comes back that night or another with friends, or weapons.The other is of course he sues you and the judge find out your martial arts guy....but I suppose you did demonstrate in front of witnesses that you did not want to fight. I read in guide once it can be helpful to shout loudly in a crowd or group situation "don't hurt me - please leave me alone! - don't threaten me ! etc..." before defending yourself

Glad it worked out and you seem to have the right attitude about what happened.

 

[drop bear]

All:

On reflection, I realize that my responses here were the result of my current position - as a man who is getting older. A silverback if you will.

We are not as likely to be pulled into the monkey dance. I would not be at a party where such things happen, I would not be a similarly-situated target of opportunity for a loudmouth punk.

However, we also are aware of our mortality. We are often somewhat more fragile in places, we don't heal as fast, we're not as fast as we were. We cannot afford to be drawn into a fist-fight, and we can't let ourselves be picked to death by crows.

So that has an impact on my response. I cannot and will not allow myself to be the target of slowly-building rage and aggression. At the first sign of it, I have to leave immediately if I can, or utterly destroy whatever threatens me if I cannot. There can't be a test of manhood or a mutual show of force. There cannot be a case where I just take my whippin' and get on with my life - it might kill me literally to take a beating from a young guy who knows his business. I have little stamina, but I do have strength. I have to judge when to use it, but if I use it, it's all in, all or nothing. Nothing held back, young punk is going to get it all; that's all I have.

That would not be the appropriate response, I guess, for a younger guy. For me, I think it's about the only alternative I have. Watch a silverback gorilla fight a young challenger some time. It's freaking brutal. If the young upstart doesn't get the upper hand, the silverback runs him off entirely or kills him. Neither get a second chance.

With an older guy versus a younger guy, it's not about dominance; it is about survival. I want to live. If Joe-Joe the Rat Faced Boy doesn't realize he started a fight that ends with him on a stretcher, or me dead, that's his fault.

Not really. You are just rationalising an outcome that you are still creating.



I used to get the same nonsense when people glassed a guy in a fight or stomped them prone.

 

[jks9199]

Not really. You are just rationalising an outcome that you are still creating.



I used to get the same nonsense when people glassed a guy in a fight or stomped them prone.

Not quite. If I'm following Bill's points propIerly... he's not justifying doing ANYTHING. But he is saying that he won't play the game in the Monkey Dance. If he realizes that he's stuck in a situation where he is likely to be attacked, as soon as he can articulate that the attack is imminent and unavoidable.. he's striking first. Again -- I'm putting words in his mouth, so he's welcome to correct my potential misread.

I don't totally agree, or do I agree with his justification completely. There's certainly a way to stop a MD by being above it. But a savage beating isn't being above it -- it's simply taking it to an extreme. Probably one that won't be socially supported, because the whole point of a MD is status, pecking order, and dominance -- which means that if you don't play within the "rules", you're a wild card and the tribe won't stand for it. A better example, in my opinion, of being above or outside the game is simply not even buying into it. I had the opportunity a few months ago to watch lowland gorillas last fall. I actually saw two fer-real Monkey Dances take place. One was a youngster, clearly no threat to the pecking order yet. This cute little guy would thump his chest and come at the silverback -- and the silverback just pushed him over. "Go away, kid, you're bothering me." But when an older gorilla, much closer in size started to get a little uppity -- the silverback put him in place right quick, no games.

Like I said, a MD is about position, not prey or killing. You won't get a MD without an audience. You won't get a MD if nobody's got anything to prove. Think about a guy who's just plain pissed off at someone. They don't care what excuse they have, they don't care what anyone thinks, they're gonna knock the guy's block off. They show up, there's almost no build up or explanation... they confront and start swinging. A MD has a build up. You may only recognize it afterwards -- but it's there.

 

[drop bear]

Not quite. If I'm following Bill's points propIerly... he's not justifying doing ANYTHING. But he is saying that he won't play the game in the Monkey Dance. If he realizes that he's stuck in a situation where he is likely to be attacked, as soon as he can articulate that the attack is imminent and unavoidable.. he's striking first. Again -- I'm putting words in his mouth, so he's welcome to correct my potential misread.

I don't totally agree, or do I agree with his justification completely. There's certainly a way to stop a MD by being above it. But a savage beating isn't being above it -- it's simply taking it to an extreme. Probably one that won't be socially supported, because the whole point of a MD is status, pecking order, and dominance -- which means that if you don't play within the "rules", you're a wild card and the tribe won't stand for it. A better example, in my opinion, of being above or outside the game is simply not even buying into it. I had the opportunity a few months ago to watch lowland gorillas last fall. I actually saw two fer-real Monkey Dances take place. One was a youngster, clearly no threat to the pecking order yet. This cute little guy would thump his chest and come at the silverback -- and the silverback just pushed him over. "Go away, kid, you're bothering me." But when an older gorilla, much closer in size started to get a little uppity -- the silverback put him in place right quick, no games.

Like I said, a MD is about position, not prey or killing. You won't get a MD without an audience. You won't get a MD if nobody's got anything to prove. Think about a guy who's just plain pissed off at someone. They don't care what excuse they have, they don't care what anyone thinks, they're gonna knock the guy's block off. They show up, there's almost no build up or explanation... they confront and start swinging. A MD has a build up. You may only recognize it afterwards -- but it's there.

Exept you have removed the concept of rational choice.

So a monkey dance can be a suprise violent attack or a preditory attack can be part of a build up.

Based soley on what will give the best chance of success.

 

[JowGaWolf]

His brother talked to me, I don't know how he got my phone number but basically he said he is sorry for his brothers action and he or him won't bother me again.

So I guess that's it. Good thing his family was cool about this and didn't further escalate it.

Family knows when a member of the family is a trouble maker and that apology was probably part in honesty that the member caused you trouble and the other part because they don't want the law involved with the situation anymore than you do or they are just trying to stop things from getting worse.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The other is of course he sues you and the judge find out your martial arts guy

Not quite sure how much this would hold up in court these days in terms of training martial artist = tough guy or martial artist = deadly hands. Martial Arts has a good reputation for something that a person takes to learn self-defense and as a life improvement that teaches discipline, honor, respect...etc. To be honest I don't think it would come into question at all. Usually with court cases it more simple, who threw the first punch, who assaulted who first, was the person acting in self-defense. A criminal record and a history of violence and drug use would work against a person more than the martial art classes that they take.

 

[Phobius]

Not everyone lives in the states. To throw a first punch when the option of walking away or otherwise not taking part in the build up of tension existed means it is no longer self defense or justified violence.

Result is that you as a participant is responsible for all the damage you inflict to him and your surroundings.

No escaping it. In this example it worked out but you all forget something. In a fight all can get hurt, don't join unless you must.

To advice attacking first in another country can result in jail time if your opponent falls on his head and cracks his skull.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Not everyone lives in the states. To throw a first punch when the option of walking away or otherwise not taking part in the build up of tension existed means it is no longer self defense or justified violence.

Result is that you as a participant is responsible for all the damage you inflict to him and your surroundings.

No escaping it. In this example it worked out but you all forget something. In a fight all can get hurt, don't join unless you must.

To advice attacking first in another country can result in jail time if your opponent falls on his head and cracks his skull.

Even in the states, each state has a different law. If in New York, for instance, you throw the first punch, and can't prove that they seriously wanted to hurt you (a monkey dance most likely wouldn't apply here) you would be the one in trouble. He didn't throw the first punch, so that's different, and he would likely be ok in NY, but in other states it is different.

 

[Flatfish]

Read the news about guys who shoot up bars, parties, etc. Often beaten in a fight, return with guns. Don't let it get to that point. He raises a hand to you, he doesn't drive away, he goes by ambulance. It has to be that way.

Yup, friend in grad school died this way. Fight broke out in a bar, the guys who started it were thrown out. They came back later and shot randomly through the window of the bar. My friend was not involved in the altercation at all, just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Crazy thing is that the bullet who killed him went through another person first. That person lived......