Dropped my sparring partner, so he says

[Kung Fu Wang]

even if a shorter heel kick, is still way longer than any arm.

My experience of the heel kick is if I don't lean back my upper body with my heel kick, my opponent's finger jab can still reach to my eyes.

Which length is longer?

- arm length + hand length,
- leg length (without include the foot length)?

No too sure about this comparison. But I'm pretty sure that

arm length + hand length < leg length + foot length

because arm length < leg length, and hand length < foot length.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

“If my opponent doesn't move, I do not move. The instant he moves, I am already there.”

The Xing Yi principle is:

You may not find any opportunity to attack. But if you keep moving. Soon or later, you will find that opportunity to attack.

 

[JowGaWolf]

and elbow is harder than toes.

Kick when and where the elbow can't defend.

It's a kick that can't be forced through.

But one guy at the club does this teep all the time, and his toes are always taped up.

My brother used to kick elbows. He spent a day training with me and now he doesn't kick toes anymore. When done correctly the kick will travel outside the field of vision.

The kickshould not travel under the elbows but between them. Kick under the elbow and your opponent will contract causing the elbows to drop closer to the body in into the path of you kick.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Kick when and where the elbow can't defend.

If we want to grade how difficult to block a kick, I'll give the following comparison.

hook kick < roundhouse kick < side kick < front kick

Any circular kick can be blocked easily than straight line kick because it requires body rotation. Since the foot is turning side way for side kick. This makes side kick easily to be blocked than front kick.

 

[Fungus]

My experience of the heel kick is if I don't lean back my upper body with my heel kick, my opponent's finger jab can still reach to my eyes.

Fair point, I did and estimate and the margin is smaller, and indeed if you lean forward while kicking, you are in the danger zone. As we don't train with eye jabs in sparring, these things are easily missed.

I also always prefer to lean back, in sparring, regardless what kihon says, this applies to all my favourite kicks, just to be out of range for counter strikes to the head. Part of it has to do with limited flexibility, but it also gets your head away.

 

[Fungus]

Kick when and where the elbow can't defend.

Yes, this is the idea with any attack of course. And when it works it's good, my experience is just that in the heat the moment, and while your opponent is also moving quite often it doesnt land where you intend, and then the ballkick is risky. I do it sparsely, when it seems absolutely fool proof, but du to risk of damaging toes it's is not a preferred kick.

But this probably gets better with experience. I am not confident enough to avoid getting the toes jammed.

Similar with open vs closed hands, in the beginning I only have close fist all the time also as a way to avoid damaging fingers, but I am not getting confidence and use more and more open hand techniques and make the fist only on striking. But this has taken me a couple of years to get confident with.

The kickshould not travel under the elbows but between them. Kick under the elbow and your opponent will contract causing the elbows to drop closer to the body in into the path of you kick.

Instad of blocking a front kick by side stepping and parrying, there is a more aggresive version where you do a elbow block that is almost an elbow strike to the incoming ankle, this is faster to do and can probably do som damage.

As my own principes are to manage with unnecessary movements, I often block fonrt kicks to the body with my knee + elbow, and i can tell that is not pleasant. I have also started to step forward and suffocate the energy and to a hart counter block, rather than evage and parry. The more aggresive method gets me a little more beating, but as long as I can take it, it saves lots of energy. Tensing your body up to take an attack is not near as resourceful as jumping around.

 

[JowGaWolf]

while your opponent is also moving quite often it doesnt land where you intend, and then the ballkick is risky.

There are a few things you can do to reduce the movement of your opponent.
1. Move backwards: This will cause your opponent to move straight forward. As he does this, he will go through these phases.
- Closing the distance. He will walk to you and not be ready
- Get ready. You will know when he's getting ready because he will stop.
- Ready. He will be ready to attack and move

You will have opportunities to land a solid kick in each phase.

2. Stay Just out of range to make your opponent feel that he must enter with an attack, lean, or kick to reach you. This has only one opportunity to land a kick. And you will do it on his entry, with the exception of the front kick. If your opponent likes to front kick then learn how to move the front kick to the side and enter with a kick.


3. Attack with a punch kick combo. This works if your opponent likes to stand his ground or cover up. Attack high and end with a front kick. The only requirement is that your front kick must come quickly after the punch, so make sure that your combo causes him to raise his guard and stand still. Do not press the punch attack so hard that he wants to flee.

These will help set up your fighter. The exercise that I used to help students is to stand in front of a wall at kicking range using the ball of your foot. I would have them practice both lead and rear leg kick. Here's the exercise:

I think that the root cause of the trouble that you have with the kick is that you aren't raising your knee first.

1. raise your knee as high as it can go, pause
2. kick outward landing on the ball of your foot. The kick should go straight. This helps with pulling the toes back and it helps with not kicking under elbows.

The second exercise will help with kicking upwards.
1. raise your knee as high as it can go, pause
2. kick upwards.

The third exercise is to
1. raise your knee halfway and do the same thing. that you did in the other exercises.

Once you are in a good habit of raising your knee first, then practice different levels of kicking. Most of these are heal kicks but the concept of raising the knee first will be the same. The exercises above and the ones in the video will help you learn how how you must raise your need for a kick that won't land on the elbows. Raising the knee first helps to deliver the kick but it also misdirects your opponent.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Instad of blocking a front kick by side stepping and parrying, there is a more aggresive version where you do a elbow block that is almost an elbow strike to the incoming ankle, this is faster to do and can probably do som damage.

I don't recommend this. I accidentally did this during light sparring and it felt like the kick broke my arm. At the time when the pain was at it highest, I thought I would have to leave class and go to the emergency room. I was fortunate enough to catch it on video. I was grateful it happened during light sparring.

If someone is doing a front kick correctly then you'll hit their shin before you reach their ankle (see image below) The only way your plan will work is if they lead with foot first. Here is why I was injured so badly. I went to block the kick, but my eyes based the timing of the knee, but the actual kick is below that. The shin rises before the foot. And that's what I blocked. The actual front kick trails the knee. But because we see the knee first, we lose track of the foot. In the picture below. My knee is in my opponent's field of vision. My foot is outside of his field of vision. So he does not know that the foot is about to land.

As my own principes are to manage with unnecessary movements, I often block fonrt kicks to the body with my knee + elbow, and i can tell that is not pleasant. I have also started to step forward and suffocate the energy and to a hart counter block, rather than evage and parry. The more aggresive method gets me a little more beating, but as long as I can take it, it saves lots of energy. Tensing your body up to take an attack is not near as resourceful as jumping around.

I would be interested in seeing how your school does front kicks. You can jam front kicks if they push in like a teep but I'm not sure how much the front kick can be jammed the way I can do it. I do front kicks off the lead leg so that gives an idea of how close I can be to land one. But now I'm really curious to see how you do the front kick

 

[JowGaWolf]

The brain sees the knee, but the actual kick flies under the field of vision. He's in defensive stance against the knee and not the kick. The kicker knew it would land before his kick got to this point. To the defender, his brain probably thought that the kicker changed his mind about kicking and as quick as that thought came to mind, the kick replied.

 

[marvin8]

No that is out of context of what that video is referring to and out of context of Jow Ga Kung as a whole. That is a self-defense mindset. If your opponent doesn't move and you don't then there's no fight. While Jow Ga can be used for self-defense. That's not the root concept of Jow Ga.

I am comparing the Opponents Move U Move with "The instant he moves, I am already there.” As Werdum jumps in the air, Overeem moves his left foot offline and shuffle steps avoiding the brunt of the kick.

Like Wang says. "Sometimes one has to be the bad guy" Sometimes it's necessary to attack and Martial Arts in general understands that. Even if the opponent doesn't move. I still move.

Depends on the interpretation and principles taught. If my opponent is in a fighting stance, I will not step and enter the fight zone where they can counter me. I will lead them to move, borrow their force then enter.

Problem with Martial Arts schools in general. Everything is shown from a Defensive Perspective (AKA: Wait for your opponent to attack). In my opinion this is the worst approach for a Martial Arts system, because it means you are guessing about how you'll be attacked. You are letting the enemy dictate the battle.

In this video, the opponent moves first into the fight zone and gets countered by the guy in the fighting stance.

If you allow your enemy to move first then you will have trouble guessing how he will attack.

If you move first, then you can press the attack against someone weaker, or trigger a specific attack for you to counter when facing a stronger opponent.

I get my opponent to move first by leading them from the safe zone while not actually attacking them.

When I move back. My motion backwards will influence the types of attacks my opponent will use. I'm guaranteed 2 things as I move backwards.

1. My opponent will advance.
2. His attacks will be linear
3. Circular attacks will not reach unless he knows how to move forward with a circular attack.

These things will not happen if I allow my opponent to move first as his move will dictate what I do.

Yes. You move within the safe zone and get the opponent to move first. That's an interpretation that others may not use.

When someone makes a short video about counter attacks, They will give a very general summary. They will not explain any of what I just posted and even what I posted is just a small amount.

In the Opponents Move U Move video, the pad holder moves first while the trainee moves from a guard position to attacking in the fight zone. "The instant he moves, I am already there.”

 

[Badhabits]

Love a good front snap kick to the jaw. Yeah hitting an elbow is a danger, but that kick is good for snapping right under and through a person's guard. Plenty of people never even see the foot coming. With people who don't deal with kicking much, you can almost just reach up and touch the ball of your foot to their chin.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Wow. Now it’s 17 pages and 330 posts on relative positioning and what to call it… And yet. Almost like listening to grandma complain about how grandpa steals the blankets and farts in bed. YAWN.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I am comparing the Opponents Move U Move with "The instant he moves, I am already there.

But you posted a Jow Ga Kung Fu video with that statement.

Jow Ga Kung Fu has attacks event though most schools teach from a defensive perspective. Even if my opponent doesn't move, I will still move.

Depends on the interpretation and principles taught. If my opponent is in a fighting stance, I will not step and enter the fight zone where they can counter me. I will lead them to move, borrow their force then enter.

This is why I only speak of Jow Ga Kung Fu which does not follow the interpretation that you present. Which is why that video is about countering and doesn't say anything about entering spaces. Kung fu in general has countering defensive already built into the techniques.

In this video, the opponent moves first into the fight zone and gets countered by the guy in the fighting stance.

That's because most kung fu is taught from a defensive perspective.
"If person does this then you do this." is a common approach that many TMA's uses, but that has changed over the years. Those schools who have always had a good balance of offensive attack and defense do not follow this.

It's this defensive perspective that caused so many Kung Fu student to not be able to fight. Here's why.

1. If I wait for your attack, then you can choose from 100 attacks and I have to guess the correct one out of 100 attacks to defend against. This is a losing battle.

However, If I attack you, then you are the one that has to choose the correct attack to defend against out of 100 choices.

In the Opponents Move U Move video, the pad holder moves first while the trainee moves from a guard position to attacking in the fight zone. "The instant he moves, I am already there.”

You are still missing the point. That video was about countering. It wasn't about. "Your opponent moves u move."

It says so in the Title "Counter Attack"
Jow Ga not following your rule : Here Jow Ga Attacks first.

Jow Ga attacking and not waiting..

I picked the video above because It shows Jow Ga leading with the big punches.

But this video says that they don't lead with the big punches. i know why this one seems to contradict the video above but it doesn't. The instructor is talking about two different things. Just like the Counter Attack video.

 

[Flying Crane]

But you posted a Jow Ga Kung Fu video with that statement.

Jow Ga Kung Fu has attacks event though most schools teach from a defensive perspective. Even if my opponent doesn't move, I will still move.


This is why I only speak of Jow Ga Kung Fu which does not follow the interpretation that you present. Which is why that video is about countering and doesn't say anything about entering spaces. Kung fu in general has countering defensive already built into the techniques.


That's because most kung fu is taught from a defensive perspective.
"If person does this then you do this." is a common approach that many TMA's uses, but that has changed over the years. Those schools who have always had a good balance of offensive attack and defense do not follow this.

It's this defensive perspective that caused so many Kung Fu student to not be able to fight. Here's why.

1. If I wait for your attack, then you can choose from 100 attacks and I have to guess the correct one out of 100 attacks to defend against. This is a losing battle.

However, If I attack you, then you are the one that has to choose the correct attack to defend against out of 100 choices.


You are still missing the point. That video was about countering. It wasn't about. "Your opponent moves u move."

It says so in the Title "Counter Attack"
Jow Ga not following your rule : Here Jow Ga Attacks first.

Jow Ga attacking and not waiting..

I picked the video above because It shows Jow Ga leading with the big punches.

But this video says that they don't lead with the big punches. i know why this one seems to contradict the video above but it doesn't. The instructor is talking about two different things. Just like the Counter Attack video.

Why are those guys wearing big gloves while training these punches on the hand pads? At least in the first video the guy doing the punching wasn’t wearing gloves. Not wearing gloves and wraps should be the standard.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why are those guys wearing big gloves while training these punches on the hand pads? At least in the first video the guy doing the punching wasn’t wearing gloves. Not wearing gloves and wraps should be the standard.

It's so funny that one of my students just gave me a pair of MMA gloves. He didn't know that I no longer fight in the ring.

 

[Flying Crane]

It's so funny that one of my students just gave me a pair of MMA gloves. He didn't know that I no longer fight in the ring.

Yeah, if you are planning to compete, and the competition rules mandate the gloves, then you train with the gloves so you are comfortable with them and can function while wearing them because you will punch differently compared to not wearing them.

But if competition is not the goal and you want your skills to be functional in a genuine self-defense situation, train without gloves. You won’t be wearing them if you are attacked on the street and you need to be able to punch effectively without that extra protection for the hands. It takes a bit more caution in the training process, but is not difficult to do.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why are those guys wearing big gloves while training these punches on the hand pads? At least in the first video the guy doing the punching wasn’t wearing gloves. Not wearing gloves and wraps should be the standard.

Good question. I don't know. The guy holding the pads is the head of the Jow Ga association.

But I'm with you. Not wearing gloves would be standard. I don't think correct hitting structure and correct power driving of the punch can be learned with gloves on. It's better to train with them off. Students will know that they have correct punching alignment when they can do downward punches and upper cuts on the heavy bag without their hands swiping the bag.

If I had to guess I would say that the gloves are on because of student preference. I only say this because when I joined my second Jow Ga school, the students wore gloves on the heavy bag. I've been hitting bags without gloves since I was 20, so at I did the same at that school. After the students saw that I could do it without being hurt, then they started to do the same. My guess is that student's there would do the same. I don't have knuckles that look like boxer hands because of how I condition the knuckles. Most people don't have patience for the type of knuckle conditioning that I do. But they are more willing to do it if it's done as a group.

At first, I thought he was just trying to get them used to doing kung fu with the gloves on but I just can't tell without asking him directly. Since he's head of a Jow Ga organization in Maryland, I would be hesitant to ask him. "Why do they train with the gloves on." That's a possibility to. For me the biggest difference with boxing gloves on was the formation of the fist and how the glove restricted some of the techniques I was fond of with a smaller glove. I can wear the boxing gloves without the wraps because the wraps deform my Jow Ga Fist. The weight took some time to get used to but it wasn't a big issue, I just needed conditioning. So I train with 10lb weights on my wrist when I do my footwork training. Now my guard can hold and move 10lbs around without my arms getting tired.

 

[windwalker099]

But I'm with you. Not wearing gloves would be standard.

In some gyms long ago they used

gloves as shown in this video







For those I used to work with.
For training, 16oz gloves were used, gradually reduced to competition level size to no gloves.
Even with gloves, alignment is key...


Pros: makes it easer to see by slowing down the movements,
hitting and getting hit with out to much damage being done..

Cons: provides a bigger surface acting as a shield,
one that is gradually reduced in size, to no gloves used...

think of it like practicing throwing using a mat, for training,
understanding there is no mat in usage.

Hop gar students practice

Distance training....we use whats called "walking the circle" practicing how to "close the gap'

 

[HighKick]

In some gyms long ago they used

gloves as shown in this video







For those I used to work with.
For training, 16oz gloves were used, gradually reduced to competition level size to no gloves.
Even with gloves, alignment is key...


Pros: makes it easer to see by slowing down the movements,
hitting and getting hit with out to much damage being done..

Cons: provides a bigger surface acting as a shield,
one that is gradually reduced in size, to no gloves used...

think of it like practicing throwing using a mat, for training,
understanding there is no mat in usage.

Hop gar students practice

Distance training....we use whats called "walking the circle" practicing how to "close the gap'

Weighted gloves are still very common.