Dropped my sparring partner, so he says

[Wing Woo Gar]

Sort of. Yes you are correct. But there are places you just cannot be unless you are actively attacking pretty much.

That 12 o clock position inside of range is lava basically.

You shouldn't even be there with your guard up ready to go. Because you have taken away any time to react.

You shouldn't be there. Move to somewhere better.

So what isn't mentioned here is MJW gets into an advantages position before he throws that non telegraphed punch. He puts his right shoulder in line with his target. So then he can fire that shot. And at speed you won't see it.

But. You will see him moving in to that position. And creating that range. And you can counter that.

It works because Kimbo doesn’t know what to look for, like most techniques, they work best on someone who hasn’t seen it or doesn’t recognize it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That would be appreciated. However, the minimum safe distance is your kick can't reach the opponent without you moving.

If a strike is going from point A to Point B then it's moving. The only way there is no movement is the strike never moves.

If I shuffle without punching then my punch will never reach your even though I moved.

If I shuffle too far out when I do a shuffle punch, then my punch will never reach you.

If I shuffle punch and you got hit, that's because you were in range. This could happen at a distance longer than 2 arms length or shorter than 2 arms length. If you get hit it means you were in range. If someone launches an attack then it means that you are within range, unless they miscalculated.

It's not only "my" definition. It's the generally accepted definition of safe distance. I would like to see if your long fist can reach your opponent without moving.

What is this thing about not moving? That is like telling someone. Hey, shuffle jab without moving. If you don't shuffle then it's not a shuffle jab.

You are telling me not move when I do a long fist technique only means I didn't do a long fist technique. The movement is part of the technique. It is what powers the technique.

It's like telling a batter to not step into the swing. The step powers the swing.

It's not only "my" definition. It's the generally accepted definition of safe distance. I would like to see if your long fist can reach your opponent without moving.

It doesn't matter if it's generally accepted definition, when I can show when the 2 arm measurement doesn't apply and why it doesn't apply. If I stand 2 arms length away from you and can still kick you, does that mean I ignore what I did and say that it didn't happen, simply because it's a generally accepted definition?

No, you are taking a step. If you step forward with the back leg, the opponent can step back with their lead leg, etc.

And I already showed you videos where this did not happen. If you were truly in a safe zone then even that step would not make the strike reach you.

The safe distance definition is punches and kicks can't reach the opponent without moving.

I don't know any attacker that doesn't move forward to attack.

Tibetan White Crane was similar in that it's designed to operate in-between the long, middle, and short ranges that many martial systems specialize in, taking advantage of gaps within the spaces that others were not aware of.
The basic horse stance is different, along with stepping patterns that make it work.

Shifu Ron Dong.

Those who said they boxed had a very hard time trying to deal with the range.
After agreeing that no kicking would be allowed in some of the early testing.

With those specializing in kicking, such as TKD and others, required a little more awareness due to kicking ranges, angles, and speed, among other things.

note: TWC part of my path as young teenager, no longer practice the style.
Do have many good memories gaining a lot of experience in using it.

Here's something that people can try if they are curious about Long Fist deception. stand next to a wall like this and go through the steps to cut away the distance.

1. Stand close to a wall like this but have both feet close together.

2. First Distance cut: Make a fist. You will still be able to touch the wall with your fist with out moving the first foot. This cut equals the length of your fingers. I have small hands but those with larger hands will get a bigger cut

3. Second Distance cut: We don't want to want to lean so we need to realign the lead foot by bring it closer to the wall Until the lean is gone. Your side should now be facing the wall and your fist should be against the wall

4. Third Distance cut: Turn your fist vertically and extend your fingers. Alow your arm to bend downward so that you can touch the wall comfortably control. The bend in the arm hides the reach beyond where your arm can reach.

5. Fourth Distance Cut: Take the foot closes to the wall and turn your foot so that the toe points to the wall and your hell is touching the inside of your other foot making a. Then pivot on the toe of the turing foot and turn the heel 45 degrees.

6. Set the false Distance for your striking by keeping your lead foot where it is and move your back foot back and sit into horse stance while trying to keep your finger on the wall. The stance should be wide enough so that you have lean slightly to touch the wall. Straighten the torso and you will have you arms length..

From here you can change the reach of your arm by leaning away from the wall or my shifing your stance by sraightening out your lead leg. Now for the final adjustment. Bend the arm again. Which brings hand away from the wall.

I cut the Distance four times. So I shorten my distance to the wall while making appear that my arm is far from the waill

Now turn into Bow stance and your arm should be really jammed into the wall. Lean a little forward and you should have about a foot of extra reach on the punch..

Now for the kick. Without moving your foot forwarrd. pivot on your toes until your toes are pointing to the wall, Now front kick the wall. That Front kick should be really jammed against the wall as well. This is the value of the stance in term of creating that false distance in long fist.

The funny thing is that you can do a surperman punch and you'll gain more than a foot in punching range without the lead foot leaving too far from where it's planted. which is about the same gain a the long fist wheel punches that you see me doing.

If I want to strike using long fist without moving my foot then I'll need to position my lead foot at the end position . But in application one wouldn't attack without moving their feet.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It works because Kimbo doesn’t know what to look for, like most techniques, they work best on someone who hasn’t seen it or doesn’t recognize it.

I think he has a good understanding of field of vision. I'm not talking about Kimbo. lol. I think he's able to know where his opponent's field of vision is. And where people are looking when he punches.

 

[marvin8]

If a strike is going from point A to Point B then it's moving. The only way there is no movement is the

You execute your long fist punch, without moving your feet. If your punch can reach the opponent, the minimum safe distance definition is wrong. If you move your feet, the opponent can move their feet the same distance.

If I shuffle without punching then my punch will never reach your even though I moved.

If I shuffle too far out when I do a shuffle punch, then my punch will never reach you.

If I shuffle punch and you got hit, that's because you were in range. This could happen at a distance longer than 2 arms length or shorter than 2 arms length. If you get hit it means you were in range. If someone launches an attack then it means that you are within range, unless they miscalculated.


What is this thing about not moving? That is like telling someone. Hey, shuffle jab without moving. If you don't shuffle then it's not a shuffle jab.

You are telling me not move when I do a long fist technique only means I didn't do a long fist technique. The movement is part of the technique. It is what powers the technique.

It's like telling a batter to not step into the swing. The step powers the swing.

You can move. However, the minimum safe distance allows your opponent the reaction time to move with you maintaining the safe distance.

It doesn't matter if it's generally accepted definition, when I can show when the 2 arm measurement doesn't apply and why it doesn't apply. If I stand 2 arms length away from you and can still kick you, does that mean I ignore what I did and say that it didn't happen, simply because it's a generally accepted definition?

Yes. However, you have to understand the minimum safe distance definition before disproving it. If you move, the opponent will move with that 2 arms length cushion. The opponent can increase the minimum safe distance, if they feel they need to (e.g., slower, less explosive, etc.). It will still be a safe distance.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You can move. However, the minimum safe distance allows your opponent the reaction time to move with you maintaining the safe distance.

My definition of a safe doesn't require me to move when the other person moves. It doesn't even require me to maintain distance. If I have do any of those actions in response to their action then that means I'm not in a safe zone.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You execute your long fist punch, without moving your feet. If your punch can reach the opponent, the minimum safe distance definition is wrong. If you move your feet, the opponent can move their feet the same distance.


You can move. However, the minimum safe distance allows your opponent the reaction time to move with you maintaining the safe distance.


Yes. However, you have to understand the minimum safe distance definition before disproving it. If you move, the opponent will move with that 2 arms length cushion. The opponent can increase the minimum safe distance, if they feel they need to (e.g., slower, less explosive, etc.). It will still be a safe distance.

The more that you keep explaining this stuff the more is sounds like a reaction zone and not a safe zone. Everything that you say in this post is about having enough reaction time.

 

[marvin8]

My definition of a safe doesn't require me to move when the other person moves. It doesn't even require me to maintain distance. If I have do any of those actions in response to their action then that means I'm not in a safe zone.

Neither does the minimum safe distance definition. Your opponent can take one step and still may not reach you. I can increase my safe distance beyond the minimum. However, I may be out of range to easily counter.

The more that you keep explaining this stuff the more is sounds like a reaction zone and not a safe zone. Everything that you say in this post is about having enough reaction time.

You are in the minimum safe zone because the opponent can't touch (e.g., kicks, strikes) you without stepping. This gives you time to react.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You are in the minimum safe zone because the opponent can't touch (e.g., kicks, strikes) you without stepping. This gives you time to react.

Your minimum safe zone sound like walking on the solid white line on the highway. When the cars stay on that side of the line then I'm safe but if the move an inch on the white light then I'm not safe.

You can continue to walk on that and feel safe.

 

[windwalker099]

The jet talks about disadvantages of stepping back allowing in coming momentum to be built up , or remaining in place controlling the space, as he mentions " guarding your ground"

 

[_Simon_]

Guuuuuys, come on, relax, this is a safe zone! Oh wait.... is it....... shouldn't have said that....

 

[Buka]

I hadn’t been reading this thread for a while, for whole lot of pages. What an interesting read catching up.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The jet talks about disadvantages of stepping back allowing in coming momentum to be built up , or remaining in place controlling the space, as he mentions " guarding your ground"

The lesson he says he's teaching is about "Moving Energy." He mentions guarding ground, but it was in reference to moving energy. I didn't hear anything specifically about the disadvantage of moving back. I think the moving back part was specific to the two he was coaching.

2 things can be true at the same time.
1. your opponent building up momentum and this becomes a disadvantage
2. your opponent building up momentum and this becomes an advantage such as making it easier to lure.

Watch the eyes thing doesn't work for me only because I exploit that type of behavior and use it to misdirect my opponent. I do agree with the watching of people while in the action of thing. Watch to see what's going on. I spar with some guys every now an then and I give them the same tip. "When you attack, watch how I react." "When I attack, watch how I attack." People get caught up with the motion of the arms instead of watching what is going on. I like hearing that lessons from others because I think it's so important in terms of executing technique.
First level: Watch what is going on
Second level: Feel what is going on
Third level: Do both at the same time.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Guuuuuys, come on, relax, this is a safe zone! Oh wait.... is it....... shouldn't have said that....

lol it's safer than it has been in the past lol

 

[marvin8]

Your minimum safe zone sound like walking on the solid white line on the highway. When the cars stay on that side of the line then I'm safe but if the move an inch on the white light then I'm not safe.

You can continue to walk on that and feel safe.

Distance deception is important and not discounted. The conventional minimum safe distance is 2 arms length. You disagree. You want the ability to both defend and attack. Any distance beyond the minimum is in agreement with the safe distance definition. Conventional distance management includes minimum safe distance, fight distance and the borderline of the two. Controlling distance will control the fight/opponent.

Will you give your measurable minimum safe distance (e.g., 4 arms lengths, etc.)?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Will you give your measurable minimum safe distance (e.g., 4 arms lengths, etc.)?

I already did many times before. Safe Distance for me is not measured by arm length or steps. There is no minimum distance at which I'm safe. Because the zone sizes fluctuate.

Safe Distance for me is simply the distance at which a person is:
1 Unable to attack - Lacks the ability to attack
2. Will not attack - Lacks the will to attack
3. Cannot attack - Does not have Access to Attack.

#1. Lacks the ability to attack - The opponent or potential attacker will not attack in Kicking Range because they do not have Kicking Skill suited for attack

#2 Will not attack - Lacks the will or desire to attack. This is the distance at which my opponent will not attack from. 7 feet away may be too far for him to successfully launch an attack. 4 feet may be just right. It depends on my attacker. My attacker may bail out of an attack due to fear.

#3 Cannot Attack - Attacker may not be able to freely use kicks in a narrow or cluttered space. I may place an object between me and my attacker which prevents his ability to attack.

For example, A step forward attack is not the one that is the dangerous one. A step forward would allow escape and a failed attack. She was safest with the equipment between them. Although she escaped at the wrong positioning and direction the first time. But the equipment prevented Forward attack. This fluctuates between safe and not safe. At one point it slows down enough for her to try to call. But if she has

None of these things have anything to do with 2 arm's length or a measure of distance. I used to run parking lot scenarios like this as part of my Self Defense class.

Cannot also could mean that I've injured my attacker enough that he is no longer able to attack. For BJJ that could mean the guy got choked out. For strikers, that could mean that he is Ko'd or has received enough pain where attack strength is degraded. In terms of weapons, it could mean that the attacker lost his weapon, I picked it up and now I'm the one with the advantage.

 

[marvin8]

There is no minimum distance at which I'm safe. Because the zone sizes fluctuate

Okay. Will you agree or disagree that there is a fight distance where one fighter can touch the other?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Okay. Will you agree or disagree that there is a fight distance where one fighter can touch the other?

I agree that there is a distance at which a fighter can touch each other.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The jet talks about disadvantages of stepping back allowing in coming momentum to be built up , or remaining in place controlling the space, as he mentions " guarding your ground"

Great stuff. Something to keep in mind. I've been more angle movement oriented, but I like this! He was always as immovable and as solid as a boulder.

Though Benny still had an accent in this video, his communication skills here are excellent. I remember him as the strong but silent type.

 

[isshinryuronin]

2 things can be true at the same time.
1. your opponent building up momentum and this becomes a disadvantage
2. your opponent building up momentum and this becomes an advantage such as making it easier to lure.

Agreed. As in many MA situations, an attacker's technique can often be a plus or minus depending on how the defender reacts to it. It provides opportunity both ways.

In 1., going back allows the attacker to build momentum and speed, eventually closing the distance as going forward is faster than going backward. It also means the attacker can still attack, but it's hard for the defender to attack going backwards. Yet another disadvantage is the effect on morale. It's higher for the attacker and usually lower for the one retreating.

In 2., one can, as you said, lure the aggressive attacker into over-committing by encouraging the attacker to build up momentum. The defender can then step off-line, the attacker's momentum preventing him from adjusting to his target now being somewhere else and thus be exposed for a counterattack. Here, the defender has the advantage of angle.

The other advantage for the defender is the attacker would normally expect his target to move back. By the defender standing his ground as Benny demonstrates, the attacker runs into his intended target. This disorders his attack, the feeling similar to going downstairs thinking there's another step when there isn't or walking into a plate glass window. Getting suddenly stopped short of your intended point is a shock in itself. On top of that, the attacker was thinking a long-range attack but now finds himself subject to a close-range counterattack!

Controlling the engagement distance (ma'ai) is certainly one of the "funnest" aspects IMO in sparring. It's a game within the game.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

2. your opponent building up momentum and this becomes an advantage such as making it easier to lure.

This may not be true sometime. My senior SC brother David C. K. Lin loved to use a flying side kick to kick his opponent's leading leg knee joint. When his body came down 45 degrees on his opponent's knee, it's pretty hard not to move back. In other words, to counter such attack is not easy.

I prefer not to let my opponent to develop any momentum. IMO, the moment that you understand how to run your opponent down, the moment that your fight skill has moved to the higher level.

My favor strategy is, if you

- kick me, I'll run you down.
- punch me, I'll run you down.
- do nothing, I'll still run you down.

The moment that I move in and kick your knee (or sweep your foot), the moment I'll put you in defense mode and you won't be able to generate any momentum to give me trouble.