How to defeat a Wrestler

[Si-Je]

Did you even Watch the videos?!
You can talk to anyone in my old federation and they'll tell you exactly how much I know of the art, dear.

Anyways, training in Wing Chun has evolved my "ju-Jitsu" techniques to a totally different level. Now, the joint locks are done with one hand, groovy stuff.

And I really don't see a point in getting into a huff and puff match with you online. I've paid my dues in Goshin three fold, as student, demo uke, and Sempi for over three years. I trained in DFW and with the founder in West Texas. Shodai had two federations, and I was lucky to train in both.

BJJ is Brazillian, don't try to link it to some Japanese roots man. It may have a couple of techniques from some Japanes stylist, but whatever.
Goshin's much, much different, and it's blatently apparent in the video's I posted.
Peace out!

 

[jarrod]

honestly no, i'm doing some CPU maintanence right now & it would take forever to load those vids. i will look at them later, though. but my point was that you said bjj did not include standing techs, & it does. you described why an armbar requires lots of strength, & i explained how, if done correctly, it does not.

you may have knowledge of one style of jujitsu, but that is just one branch on the tree. as for bjj not having japanese roots...it is descended from judo, which is descended from jujitsu. i really don't see how you can argue that bjj doesn't have japanese roots. why do they call their uniforms kimonos? why is it call "jiujitsu"? i don't think that's portugese. if bjj were brazilian, they wouldn't even wear gis, they's wear those bananna hammocks that they wear to the beach.

anyway, i don't intend for this to escalate. perhaps we can return to this thread tomorrow with cooler heads.

jf

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Excellent Post GBlues. People like you keep this tread alive Thankyou for your experience and knowledge. Keep it up?

Don't let him grab you. Move around alot! IF you've got room. ANother thing too, if he shoots, you can step back into a wide horse stance for stability. Sink your knees as you drop your elbow into the guys clavicle area. My father did that to me when my wrestling buddies in highschool were showing me things. Stopped me dead in my tracks. Dropped straight to my knees. From there you can keep slamming elbows into that region while mixing it up with elbows to the side of the face or even a good shot to the temple. Be wary about striking with elbows to the temple region, or even to the base of the neck where the spine meets the head. This can cause serious injury, and even death. This is a life or death deal, not trying to stop your buddy that's into grappling when your sparring. After you have stopped him from the shoot with the elbow you may be able to push him off of you and get away. Another effective way is when he shoots throw your legs out behind you like your going to lay belly down on his back. Keeps your legs further away, and frees your arms up again for elbow, strikes, and punches. For me it's a rather difficult move and is just really putting off the inevitable fact that now your grappling. YOu can also when you throw your legs out behind you snake your arm, ( either one) around his throat performing ( I believe correct me if I'm wrong), a guillotine choke. He'll either A: Try to gain control of your legs, B: Break the choke, or C: try to get out of it by standing up. HOld on! Throw your legs further out, putting more of your weight on his back, you have leverage on your side now. DOn't let go, till he taps, (sparring), or is unconscious,(self-defense). Those are ones that I usually try to work with depending on the situation and have used them all, to varying degrees of success. I hope that was helpful. Generally this last one ususally for me anyways only works against somebody that thinks they can wrestle or grapple but doesn't really have a clue. Cause really there are lots of ways to get out of those for grapplers and wrestlers. I have some knowledge of grappling but there are others here that most assuredly could and would make mince meat out of me on the ground. Again I hope this was helpful.

 

[Si-Je]

Hubbies a black belt Judo, and assure that BJJ is NOT decended from Judo. He never heard of BJJ in the 70's-80's when he was involved in Judo.
I became aware of BJJ through the UFC fights when they started in the 90's, that's when I took JJJ. Never heard a peep about it until Gracie came bounding in the ring.

News to us.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Thank you for the invite. i am still looking for skilled people who I can spar with and train with from other styles including BJJ who are alot better than me so My Wing Chun can grow. I been getting soft over the years. I haven't had any challenges in while. Except for Chi Sao and sparring with people at Tai Chi class and at my house. I need to interact with more skilled people so I can grow. Atleast people of other styles.

I wish you were in STL too. Getting taking to ground and learning how to escape from your skilled submission locks or pins would do me alot of good.

ah, i misunderstood your origional post then. you've already received some good tips on this from other posters. all the best, if i were any closer to st. lou i would look you up. if you're ever in the KC area look me up, it would be fun to train & work with a good WC guy.



this is a good example of what's good for the goose not being so good for the gander, so to speak. too often people confuse fighting, combat, & self-defense. they are all very different levels of conflict & the same tactics can't be used in them universally.

sambo is a very good example of a grappling style that adapts well to military usage. sure it has it's sport-fighting element, but that it not the whole of the art. for instance, in judo you win the match if you throw your opponent flat on his back. in sambo, a throw only wins the match if you throw your opponent on his back & stay on your feet. the idea is that from there you are stomping his head in with your combat boots.

so i think that's it's a good idea for the army to train mma/bjj since it has a fairly short learning curve, but i would like to see it augmented with more combat oriented skills later. as you mentioned, rolling with an 80lbs+ pack is not really practical.

jf

 

[Yoshiyahu]

The Reason why some Wing Chun Kicks are not powerful is because people don't train them. Bruce Lee front Kicks and Side kicks were extremely powerful. Because he kicked a 400lbs heavy bag. Thats how Wing Chun guys can generate more power. Start hitting a heavy sand bag. When you send 200lbs flying up to roof then your ready to launch a human body. Also practicing hundreds of kicks in the air aid in increasing power along with strecthing and horse stance!

How is the energy different in Wing Chun and kickboxing??? Aside the round kicks, many are still linear like in Wing Chun. I like the directness and non telegraphic nature of the Wing Chun kicks, but they are nowheres near as powerfull as they are from a conditioned an well trained kickboxer as I have exerienced on my own body. Same with knees and elbows.

Tae Kwon Do has vuirtually the same thing as the front kick of Wing Chun as did Koeikan and I believe Muay Thai. I've seen many a knees get kicked in person and in MMA fights. It is not as dramatic of a technique as many believe. It is if you hit it at the correct angle with their weight on it (as taught in Wing Chun), but even then (see the recent Brandon Vera vs Kieth Jardine...Vera landed THE Wing Chun front kick!).

 

[mook jong man]

I absolutely reject the notion that Wing Chun kicks are not powerful . As with everything it depends of the pedigree of the person you are trained by .
Unless you have gone around to every Kwoon in the world and held a kick shield for them it is a bit of a generalisation to say they have no power .
The many branches of Wing Chun are varied and have different ways of doing things , just because you have felt the power of one lineage or even one school and deemed it lacking that might not be the case for every lineage or Kwoon .

Case in point one of the instructors at our school was held up by a bloke at an atm and he hook kicked him in the thigh and broke the bloke's femur ( our hook kick only travels about 3 feet but is amplified by latching the attacker into the kick) I would say that's plenty of power .

The point I'm trying to make is that not all Wing Chun is created equal and in the commercial world we live in people won't spend enough time on the basics as they should to build a solid stance .

Indeed in my own lineage in our Sigungs school in Hong Kong the students don't get taught to kick till after about 4 years , they mostly do chi sau for 5 or 6 hours a night 6 days a week, he requires that their stance is rock solid and they have thorough understanding of Sil Lum Tao form .

Sigung thinks that any one thats been training for less than 10 years is still a beginner . But believe me if you are hit by these people you do not get back up .

Now I ask you what westerners in commercial schools are going to train like that , they expect to learn a new trick every night before they've even mastered the last one and think they should be learning the pole 3 months after they join up , and if they don't get what they want they walk out and go to some charlatan who will give it to them .
End of rant .

 

[seasoned]

Now hopefully you can answer my next question. Of course, if someone was reaching towards us, one would expect that we'd begin our defense then, not waiting. ex: someone starts reaching towards us to grab our lapel. At that point, we could defend even though the grab has not happened. Now, in the case of the video clip with the headlock, had this been fully applied, what would his response have been? At that point, obviously his structure isn't as stable as if he were standing. In my art, Kenpo, we have defenses in the event that the attack is actually completed. Harder to defend? Sure, however, there are still ways to cancel out certain actions of our opponent.

Looking forward to your reply.

Mike

Once the head lock is applied and you are bent over, there are 3 things that could happen to the person in the head lock. First you could get thrown to the ground, second while he has your head in his arm, his other fist is hitting your face, and third while you are in the head lock he could swing his leg closest to you, out, and drop straight down, bringing you with him. All three places are not where you want to be.J When you are first grabbed in the head lock, say by his left arm, and he bends over and locks in, multiple things need to happen. You need to adjust your left leg as far forward as you can and check his left leg. At the same time you will use your left hand to grab his arm that is around your neck, pull down, and turn your head toward his body, and tuck your chin in. Also while doing the top two, bring your right arm up from behind and as mentioned, grab what ever you can, and pull back while standing upright again. As you begin to return to the upright position, let go of his arm with you left hand and strike his groin. While he is quite preoccupied slip your head out and apply an arm bar to the arm that held your head. Once the arm bar is applied, drive him to the ground, face down, keep a hold of his left arm while you kneel into the middle of his back with your right knee, grab his hair, pull up, and slam his face into the ground. While still holding his left arm, stand up, lift your right leg up and do a stomp kick to the middle of his back. After that, step back, turn and run, and don’t look back. This is a complete, from beginning to end, but you can stop where ever you want. J

 

[Si-Je]

I totally FEEL you man! (mook jong man)
This is why we don't have alot of students! One little girl came into our class and asked me what our "special super secret power move was!"
I couldn't help it, I said, " XX, triangle, circle, back, up, right button!" (I'm a nintendo kid, it slipped out before I could stop it!) lol!
She wasn't interested in the class. I told her the chainpunching was the bestest, baddest, super secret, power move to start with. (she was 9). Went to Karate class.
But, we did get two 10 and 12 year old brothers who were the best! They'd been kicked out of everyother karate school and such, kung fu guys won't teach kids around here, so we happily took up the "rejects". They were totally awesome. But, we only had three kids, one teenage boy, and four men. And ONE woman!
Can't get women to take the class as much as I'd like. But they love my WC aerobics class.

There's alot of schools that have marketing down to a science, they sell CD's online, charge you 200 a month for "coaching" in your "business", and hand out belts like candy. One guy we taught for, his orginazations kids classes was like that. Had a great business, was a good guy, really bad self-defense. I spent 6 weeks re-teaching the kids TKD kicking, because it was too sloppy, couldn't let that slide. He wouldn't let us teach the kids WC at all because he said they'd win too much and crap out his other instructors. But, they didnt' even know how to block TKD style in sparring! Fixed that too.
We didn't last long there, but learned alot about the mentality we were trying to teach to.
People seem to need to feel that their making progress, they need to "see" that progress in an official looking format, i.e. a certificate, belt, stripe, trophey, plaque or patch. They want to be able to gage their progress compared to others in class in a time scale/goal oriented manner so they feel like they're learning at the rate they're supposed too.
I blame the industrial revolution, public school grading and teaching systems, and general work force "Office Space" (like the move) type mentality that is rampant here in the U.S. And the instant glorification of media in general here. We have unrealistic expectations placed on us by ourselves and by others, and it's the defacto.
Wing Chun "progress" is not always so gratifying, noticable, or glorified and celabrated.
Mostly I think, "man! I'm just sucking at this! I thought I was getting good!" And that's when Hubbie shows me "new" stuff, that seems like the "old" stuff only for some reason it's harder because he added one or two little movements or concepts. Right?!
You have to be pretty stubborn to do WC/WT for a quality period of time.

 

[mook jong man]

I totally FEEL you man! (mook jong man)
This is why we don't have alot of students! One little girl came into our class and asked me what our "special super secret power move was!"
I couldn't help it, I said, " XX, triangle, circle, back, up, right button!" (I'm a nintendo kid, it slipped out before I could stop it!) lol!
She wasn't interested in the class. I told her the chainpunching was the bestest, baddest, super secret, power move to start with. (she was 9). Went to Karate class.
But, we did get two 10 and 12 year old brothers who were the best! They'd been kicked out of everyother karate school and such, kung fu guys won't teach kids around here, so we happily took up the "rejects". They were totally awesome. But, we only had three kids, one teenage boy, and four men. And ONE woman!
Can't get women to take the class as much as I'd like. But they love my WC aerobics class.

There's alot of schools that have marketing down to a science, they sell CD's online, charge you 200 a month for "coaching" in your "business", and hand out belts like candy. One guy we taught for, his orginazations kids classes was like that. Had a great business, was a good guy, really bad self-defense. I spent 6 weeks re-teaching the kids TKD kicking, because it was too sloppy, couldn't let that slide. He wouldn't let us teach the kids WC at all because he said they'd win too much and crap out his other instructors. But, they didnt' even know how to block TKD style in sparring! Fixed that too.
We didn't last long there, but learned alot about the mentality we were trying to teach to.
People seem to need to feel that their making progress, they need to "see" that progress in an official looking format, i.e. a certificate, belt, stripe, trophey, plaque or patch. They want to be able to gage their progress compared to others in class in a time scale/goal oriented manner so they feel like they're learning at the rate they're supposed too.
I blame the industrial revolution, public school grading and teaching systems, and general work force "Office Space" (like the move) type mentality that is rampant here in the U.S. And the instant glorification of media in general here. We have unrealistic expectations placed on us by ourselves and by others, and it's the defacto.
Wing Chun "progress" is not always so gratifying, noticable, or glorified and celabrated.
Mostly I think, "man! I'm just sucking at this! I thought I was getting good!" And that's when Hubbie shows me "new" stuff, that seems like the "old" stuff only for some reason it's harder because he added one or two little movements or concepts. Right?!
You have to be pretty stubborn to do WC/WT for a quality period of time.

You are a 110 % correct , but I think that it is a problem that effects all martial arts , the dreaded Mcdojo syndrome . They are dictated to by the student because they depend on the student for profit , so for Gods sake don't do anything to piss off the prescious student or they will leave taking there fees with them .

I think a lot of the real effective Wing Chun is being taught in guy's garages where they don't have to depend on the student for fees or only a small nominal amount and don't have to teach kids .

The kind of places where you have to be in the know to get into and have a letter , I know that is the case with Sigungs school in Hong Kong where he teaches in his small apartment and you had to have a letter of recommendation from somebody to be able to train there , and if they don't like you or think you might be of dubious character then you are out of there buddy .

That reply about the nintendo was a classic what was the expression on her face like when you said that ? I'll tell you a good one , I used to have these two young chinese boys in my class , they were good boys did everything you told em to do .

They were identical twins one was named Lionel and the other was named Ritchie . In our school it was required that you had your name on your shirt.
One day I was teaching a technique to the group and the boys were standing right next to each other and I looked at them and started laughing because when they stood together it spelled LIONEL RITCHIE .

Needless to say the joke was lost on them because they were young and wouldn't know Lionel Ritchie from a bar of soap , but I thought it was hilarious .

 

[Yoshiyahu]

You are right Mook Jong Man. What I am speaking about is some people who lineage don't do phyiscal contact. Some lineages do only Chi Sau and drills. No kick shields, No Kicking the tree. Rarely do stance work outside of doing forms and drills. They rarely practice kicks,
So there kicks have no power when they decided to kick. Furthermore their kicks looks sloppy because they don't practice kicks. i asked this one Sifu what he does to work on his kicks. he says he doesn't practice kicks. I was like wow. An he only punches in air. I asked him about the wall bag or heavy bag. He says well that I only tap the wall bag lightly. I don't give it any impact. Just light taps. I like the idea. But you should use harder blows along with light taps. in my opinion you should mix it up. The light an slow taps build chi. But the Explosive snap an power also helps increase fa-jing. You need to practice Fa-Jing as well as Chi.

Some wingchunners and sifus don't teach that. I am bless that my sifu did. An much of what you said reminds me of my sifu.

I absolutely reject the notion that Wing Chun kicks are not powerful . As with everything it depends of the pedigree of the person you are trained by .
Unless you have gone around to every Kwoon in the world and held a kick shield for them it is a bit of a generalisation to say they have no power .
The many branches of Wing Chun are varied and have different ways of doing things , just because you have felt the power of one lineage or even one school and deemed it lacking that might not be the case for every lineage or Kwoon .

Case in point one of the instructors at our school was held up by a bloke at an atm and he hook kicked him in the thigh and broke the bloke's femur ( our hook kick only travels about 3 feet but is amplified by latching the attacker into the kick) I would say that's plenty of power .

The point I'm trying to make is that not all Wing Chun is created equal and in the commercial world we live in people won't spend enough time on the basics as they should to build a solid stance .

Indeed in my own lineage in our Sigungs school in Hong Kong the students don't get taught to kick till after about 4 years , they mostly do chi sau for 5 or 6 hours a night 6 days a week, he requires that their stance is rock solid and they have thorough understanding of Sil Lum Tao form .

Sigung thinks that any one thats been training for less than 10 years is still a beginner . But believe me if you are hit by these people you do not get back up .

Now I ask you what westerners in commercial schools are going to train like that , they expect to learn a new trick every night before they've even mastered the last one and think they should be learning the pole 3 months after they join up , and if they don't get what they want they walk out and go to some charlatan who will give it to them .
End of rant .

 

[mook jong man]

You are right Mook Jong Man. What I am speaking about is some people who lineage don't do phyiscal contact. Some lineages do only Chi Sau and drills. No kick shields, No Kicking the tree. Rarely do stance work outside of doing forms and drills. They rarely practice kicks,
So there kicks have no power when they decided to kick. Furthermore their kicks looks sloppy because they don't practice kicks. i asked this one Sifu what he does to work on his kicks. he says he doesn't practice kicks. I was like wow. An he only punches in air. I asked him about the wall bag or heavy bag. He says well that I only tap the wall bag lightly. I don't give it any impact. Just light taps. I like the idea. But you should use harder blows along with light taps. in my opinion you should mix it up. The light an slow taps build chi. But the Explosive snap an power also helps increase fa-jing. You need to practice Fa-Jing as well as Chi.

Some wingchunners and sifus don't teach that. I am bless that my sifu did. An much of what you said reminds me of my sifu.

What the hell is the point of having a wall bag if your just going to caress it tenderly with little love taps , you might as well go and punch your pillow lol .

It is very important to hit the wallbag as hard as you can to condition your knuckles , develop elbow force and be able to learn to relax and not let the recoil of the strike travel back into your body .

In my opinion you can only develop that skill by striking objects that give you resistance not by punching the air , don't get me wrong I've done a fair bit of air punching myself , it has its place .
But it should always be balanced with a lot of impact training on equipment as well .

 

[Si-Je]

You are a 110 % correct , but I think that it is a problem that effects all martial arts , the dreaded Mcdojo syndrome . They are dictated to by the student because they depend on the student for profit , so for Gods sake don't do anything to piss off the prescious student or they will leave taking there fees with them . .

lol! student's WILL get ticked off, WC/WT's frustrating. it's inevitable. And there are alot of McDojo's running around as the norm.

I think a lot of the real effective Wing Chun is being taught in guy's garages where they don't have to depend on the student for fees or only a small nominal amount and don't have to teach kids .

The kind of places where you have to be in the know to get into and have a letter , I know that is the case with Sigungs school in Hong Kong where he teaches in his small apartment and you had to have a letter of recommendation from somebody to be able to train there , and if they don't like you or think you might be of dubious character then you are out of there buddy . .

True that. We've had the best students in a small class. Just me and hubbie, so we can't split up the class to teach larger groups of people. (only two instructors)
I love teaching kids because they expect nothing, and therefor see everything. And do what you tell them without as much guff. Therefore learn faster. I always liked a more private class than the bigger ones, especially training WC/WT.

That reply about the nintendo was a classic what was the expression on her face like when you said that ? .

Perterbed was the expression. People are waaaay too serious these days. Training should be fun, otherwise, why would you do it for long? Kid was serious, I found her comical, and thought she was joking, had a bit of wit to her. Misjudged that one. I've had to seriously curb my weird sense of humor, many don't get it or apprectiate my corney, goofey mindset, especially adults. Kids are more apt to like it. Told hubbie, I don't want to teach adults anymore. Just teach women and kids. (women have more understanding for the lighter side usually)

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I totally agree with you. I don't know this guy is either a sifu or high ranking student. But I just don't understand. He is also the guy who says he doesn't practice kicks. He has wing chun instructional videos on youtube and website. Don't get me wrong he is very skilled...I love his Chi Sau just awesome. But he said that if you hit the wall bag hard you will develop arthritis when your old. An he says there is no reason to practice kicks. They will be there when you need them? I just don't get it. Either he was pulling my chain and wanted to hold knowledge for himself. Or he really doesn't do those things. I was just wanted outside opinions. To see how close it matches up to what I have learn from my sifu an studied on my own?


But I guess alls his kwoon do is Forms.Chi Sau and Partner Drills. Tends to be alot of that lately.

Very interesting!

What the hell is the point of having a wall bag if your just going to caress it tenderly with little love taps , you might as well go and punch your pillow lol .

It is very important to hit the wallbag as hard as you can to condition your knuckles , develop elbow force and be able to learn to relax and not let the recoil of the strike travel back into your body .

In my opinion you can only develop that skill by striking objects that give you resistance not by punching the air , don't get me wrong I've done a fair bit of air punching myself , it has its place .
But it should always be balanced with a lot of impact training on equipment as well .

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Whats the difference between Gracie Jiu Jitsu and regular Japanese Jiu Jitsu?

 

[Si-Je]

Whats the difference between Gracie Jiu Jitsu and regular Japanese Jiu Jitsu?

no, no, please no. lol!
I see absolutely no correlation of WC/WT principles in BJJ or Japanese Ju-Jitsu. JJJ has smaller circles, sometimes called small circle ju-jitsu, I've missed those circles in BJJ, don't see 'em.

I've done the all time favorite BJJ armbar on hubbie (where you put the arm between your legs as you lay your legs on their chest and arch your back for the elbow break.)
Right there biggest difference of BJJ from JJJ. manipulation of only one joint. Hubbie is much stronger and was able to simply arm curl out of the arm bar on me and stronger men too. Too much use of strength.

JJJ similar armbar I would have opponent on their side/ribs, with one knee in their rib and other in the side of their neck/head. Pinned. You wrap your arm around their arm, tucking their wrist/forearm under your armpit, pinneing it there. The wrapping arm's forearm braces against the elbow joint, that same hand locks out on the other arm in a triangle fashion. Your arch your back, working against the wrist and the elbow. Or if they shift and are able to bend the elbow you "tan sau" the bent elbow you have wrapped and pivot whole body towards their head. breaks the elbow and the shoulder out of socket.

Most arm bars in JJJ you manipulate the wrist as well to give better leverage in the armbar. I have not ever seen this done in BJJ. People say because the wrists are taped you can't do that. A torking twisting motion on the wrist (like a corkscrew) would still hurt on a taped up wrist. JJJ flexes the small bones in the back of the hand and fingers to exert control and pain while setting up for joint locks and to keep a person in a joint lock. BJJ doesn't.

I've got more. lol! There's so much more! lol!
Basically, JJJ "locks out" on a joint, or choke, BJJ doesn't.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Wow, Sounds like you should be writing books now on that...very good...

no, no, please no. lol!



I see absolutely no correlation of WC/WT principles in BJJ or Japanese Ju-Jitsu. JJJ has smaller circles, sometimes called small circle ju-jitsu, I've missed those circles in BJJ, don't see 'em.

I've done the all time favorite BJJ armbar on hubbie (where you put the arm between your legs as you lay your legs on their chest and arch your back for the elbow break.)
Right there biggest difference of BJJ from JJJ. manipulation of only one joint. Hubbie is much stronger and was able to simply arm curl out of the arm bar on me and stronger men too. Too much use of strength.

JJJ similar armbar I would have opponent on their side/ribs, with one knee in their rib and other in the side of their neck/head. Pinned. You wrap your arm around their arm, tucking their wrist/forearm under your armpit, pinneing it there. The wrapping arm's forearm braces against the elbow joint, that same hand locks out on the other arm in a triangle fashion. Your arch your back, working against the wrist and the elbow. Or if they shift and are able to bend the elbow you "tan sau" the bent elbow you have wrapped and pivot whole body towards their head. breaks the elbow and the shoulder out of socket.

Most arm bars in JJJ you manipulate the wrist as well to give better leverage in the armbar. I have not ever seen this done in BJJ. People say because the wrists are taped you can't do that. A torking twisting motion on the wrist (like a corkscrew) would still hurt on a taped up wrist. JJJ flexes the small bones in the back of the hand and fingers to exert control and pain while setting up for joint locks and to keep a person in a joint lock. BJJ doesn't.

I've got more. lol! There's so much more! lol!
Basically, JJJ "locks out" on a joint, or choke, BJJ doesn't.

 

[Si-Je]

Wow, Sounds like you should be writing books now on that...very good...

lol! your too kind. I'd have to actually take BJJ classes, and I don't really want to do that.
I'll go to a couple of seminars though, (as long as their free! lol!) I just wait until some BJJ guy comes into class and watch and work out with them. I don't mention my JJJ training at all. It confuses them when they think I'm all Wing Chun. (which I am, now)

One thing about BJJ is when they try for a hold, lock, or choke the way they direct their energy on the hold it's very defined, labored, and often obvious. They tend to get too focused on one technique and work at it till they have it, even if they never get the hold. Instead of flowing to another joint lock, choke, or hold. Oh, it's hard to explain without sounding snotty, I really don't mean it that way. It's just that studing JJJ we drilled often to flow from one wrist or arm lock to another. If we encountered too much resistance, then you'd flow to another joint lock in the direction that their pulling away, pushing, or moving to.
i.e. - I try kotogashie (wrist lock) and their too strong and resist too much, then you jerk quickly into reverse-kotogashie (a meaner wrist lock incorporating the elbow upward. Breaking wrist and elbow), if that doesn't work, you flow bend the elbow and take the arm behind them, still flexing the wrist fingers pointing up while behind their back (this re-inforces an arm twisted behind their back) And on and on, until you hear a "snap". But, we would drill these locks standing, sitting, and on the ground.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Why did you have to take BJJ Classes?

lol! your too kind. I'd have to actually take BJJ classes, and I don't really want to do that.
I'll go to a couple of seminars though, (as long as their free! lol!) I just wait until some BJJ guy comes into class and watch and work out with them. I don't mention my JJJ training at all. It confuses them when they think I'm all Wing Chun. (which I am, now)

One thing about BJJ is when they try for a hold, lock, or choke the way they direct their energy on the hold it's very defined, labored, and often obvious. They tend to get too focused on one technique and work at it till they have it, even if they never get the hold. Instead of flowing to another joint lock, choke, or hold. Oh, it's hard to explain without sounding snotty, I really don't mean it that way. It's just that studing JJJ we drilled often to flow from one wrist or arm lock to another. If we encountered too much resistance, then you'd flow to another joint lock in the direction that their pulling away, pushing, or moving to.
i.e. - I try kotogashie (wrist lock) and their too strong and resist too much, then you jerk quickly into reverse-kotogashie (a meaner wrist lock incorporating the elbow upward. Breaking wrist and elbow), if that doesn't work, you flow bend the elbow and take the arm behind them, still flexing the wrist fingers pointing up while behind their back (this re-inforces an arm twisted behind their back) And on and on, until you hear a "snap". But, we would drill these locks standing, sitting, and on the ground.

 

[MJS]

I've done the all time favorite BJJ armbar on hubbie (where you put the arm between your legs as you lay your legs on their chest and arch your back for the elbow break.)
Right there biggest difference of BJJ from JJJ. manipulation of only one joint. Hubbie is much stronger and was able to simply arm curl out of the arm bar on me and stronger men too. Too much use of strength.

I've tried this as well. Of course, one of the main differences between actually making the tech. work or not, is having the arm glued to your chest before you begin to go down for the armbar. Additionally, you (the person doing the armbar) need to be close to the other person. If there is a gap that will make it much easier to escape/resist.

One thing about BJJ is when they try for a hold, lock, or choke the way they direct their energy on the hold it's very defined, labored, and often obvious. They tend to get too focused on one technique and work at it till they have it, even if they never get the hold. Instead of flowing to another joint lock, choke, or hold. Oh, it's hard to explain without sounding snotty, I really don't mean it that way. It's just that studing JJJ we drilled often to flow from one wrist or arm lock to another. If we encountered too much resistance, then you'd flow to another joint lock in the direction that their pulling away, pushing, or moving to.
i.e. - I try kotogashie (wrist lock) and their too strong and resist too much, then you jerk quickly into reverse-kotogashie (a meaner wrist lock incorporating the elbow upward. Breaking wrist and elbow), if that doesn't work, you flow bend the elbow and take the arm behind them, still flexing the wrist fingers pointing up while behind their back (this re-inforces an arm twisted behind their back) And on and on, until you hear a "snap". But, we would drill these locks standing, sitting, and on the ground.

Personally, I never understood why someone would continue to focus on getting that lock if they're having that much difficulty. I mean, like you said, why not move onto something else?