How to defeat a Wrestler

[Yoshiyahu]

Jarrod. My lineage of Wing Chun has Eyegouges, Thrusting fingers in eyes, Arm breaks, Leg breaks, Joint locks, Take downs and also Hair pulling to punch him in the face!

I have been hearing that Wing Chun schools don't teach this now. But Wing Chun is a street fighting art. So whats allowed in the street is allowed in Wing Chun. That being said all is permissable.

What do you think?

 

[MJS]

Jarrod. My lineage of Wing Chun has Eyegouges, Thrusting fingers in eyes, Arm breaks, Leg breaks, Joint locks, Take downs and also Hair pulling to punch him in the face!

I have been hearing that Wing Chun schools don't teach this now. But Wing Chun is a street fighting art. So whats allowed in the street is allowed in Wing Chun. That being said all is permissable.

What do you think?

I've been training in Kenpo for quite some time, and pretty much every tech. in the system has what you mentioned above. Not quite sure of what you're trying to say, but....while those tools are certainly good ones, I wouldn't want to rely on just those. In other words, this is why I say its good to know some ground work.

 

[dungeonworks]

i think dungeonworks meant "grappler's bag of tricks" rather than a grappling dummy or a floor bag....

Yes, this is exactly the meaning of "bag" I was aiming for. Thanks for pointing that out Jarrod!!!

 

[Si-Je]

no offense intended, but this statement shows that you really have no understanding of jujitsu. i think we should be able to have this discussion without being derogatory towards each other's art.

jf

I did not mean to offend, or be derogatory about grappling. I'm meaning to make the observation from my experiences in Ju-Jitsu, that there is much more strength needed than advertised. I loved Ju-Jitsu, it was really a fun art but it wasn't the BJJ that is so popular today. More of a traditional Japanese style.
Those techniques work much better if one is matched against someone closer to their size and strength. Sure, I could do throws on much larger men in the dojo, but it is easier to throw your opponent if you can get them stunned, or offbalenced first. Hense, striking, kicking, etc.
The joint locks are executed useing both your hands on one of your attackers arm or wrist. This ties up your hands and commits them to the joint lock, whilist your attacker still has another hand/arm free to punch you.
The Judo/JuJitsu throws usually leave you with your back to your opponent for cruitial seconds before you throw them down. (and yet, we followed the opponent to the ground rarely. That was the point of throwing them. Get them on the ground while keeping your feet. ) But, in reality, the opponent usually ends up taking you with them in a throw or a takedown, so what was taught in the dojo was incomplete. Yet, we learned ground fighting too, but once again, this ground fighting utilizes alot of energy, more so if the attacker weighs more (more weight on your chest, etc, makes it hard to breathe and such) or is much stronger than you, leverage will help, but you are still using alot of strength against strength.
I am very small, short, small boned, lean frame, etc. Using this type of strategy on the ground against someone who is twice my weight (littarly) will not help me in truth, and I have injured myself resisting and using force on force with these "leveraged" techniques against large people.
The best strategy is to get the grappler off you asap, get yourself in position to strike and repeatedly following up until they are done. Change their balance, motion, and body position so they cannot get set to lock out on you, or become positioned for a strong hold.
Negate their structure, balance, and force re-directing them into a position that is more advantageous for you.

I love wrestling, I love ju-jitsu! Ground fighting was sooooo fun! But, WC/WT concepts utilized against a grappler and in ground fighting is just more effecient to me than trying to return the same energy that a stronger, bigger attacker throws at me.
I know that grappling and BJJ have evolved and have been tested against alot of styles in the past and have done very well against alot of traditional martial arts; but that doesn't sway my understanding of WC's effectiveness, practicality, and usefulness in using against a grappler of any sort.

 

[Si-Je]

So basically you're against cross training? Of course, in order to fully understand something, it may require a bit more than just working, but thats just my opinion.

Everyone seems to love the idea of cross-training these days. sigh. I have "cross-trained", I've taken several styles for long periods of time.
I just prefer to train one at a time to focus primarialy on what that art teaches.
It's like learning a new language. Are you going to take German at the same time while your learning Portuguese? Wouldn't that take longer for you to become fluent in either language?

As for grappling, it's not my cup of tea. I've done various versions of wrestling/grappling type arts in the past. I've found the art I want to use, "become fluent in" so to speak, because it is so universal.

Besides, the question was what would one use against a Grappler that was 100 percent Wing Chun. I answered that question, and my answer does not include cross-training in another art. I includes perfecting WT principles and concepts in combat, the ring, street, etc.
It's a great question and deserves a great answer.

 

[MJS]

So basically you're against cross training? Of course, in order to fully understand something, it may require a bit more than just working, but thats just my opinion.

Everyone seems to love the idea of cross-training these days. sigh. I have "cross-trained", I've taken several styles for long periods of time.
I just prefer to train one at a time to focus primarialy on what that art teaches.
It's like learning a new language. Are you going to take German at the same time while your learning Portuguese? Wouldn't that take longer for you to become fluent in either language?

As I've said many times in similar discussions on the cross training subject, I feel that the person should have a solid base art first and THEN look at other things.

As for grappling, it's not my cup of tea. I've done various versions of wrestling/grappling type arts in the past. I've found the art I want to use, "become fluent in" so to speak, because it is so universal.

Thats fine. Of course, like I also always say, if someone wants to expand their knowledge in a certain area, they're going to have to look outside the box.

Besides, the question was what would one use against a Grappler that was 100 percent Wing Chun. I answered that question, and my answer does not include cross-training in another art. I includes perfecting WT principles and concepts in combat, the ring, street, etc.
It's a great question and deserves a great answer.

Hmm...if we look back to the first UFC, we saw style vs. style match ups. We saw people who, for quite some time, were one dimensional fighters. I think we also saw how that worked too. On a slightly different note, you should check out a thread I started today in the General MA section. Its called, "Does one prepare you better than the other?" I kind of hit on comments such as you made in this thread.

 

[dungeonworks]

I did not mean to offend, or be derogatory about grappling. I'm meaning to make the observation from my experiences in Ju-Jitsu, that there is much more strength needed than advertised. I loved Ju-Jitsu, it was really a fun art but it wasn't the BJJ that is so popular today. More of a traditional Japanese style.
Those techniques work much better if one is matched against someone closer to their size and strength. Sure, I could do throws on much larger men in the dojo, but it is easier to throw your opponent if you can get them stunned, or offbalenced first. Hense, striking, kicking, etc.
The joint locks are executed useing both your hands on one of your attackers arm or wrist. This ties up your hands and commits them to the joint lock, whilist your attacker still has another hand/arm free to punch you.
The Judo/JuJitsu throws usually leave you with your back to your opponent for cruitial seconds before you throw them down. (and yet, we followed the opponent to the ground rarely. That was the point of throwing them. Get them on the ground while keeping your feet. ) But, in reality, the opponent usually ends up taking you with them in a throw or a takedown, so what was taught in the dojo was incomplete. Yet, we learned ground fighting too, but once again, this ground fighting utilizes alot of energy, more so if the attacker weighs more (more weight on your chest, etc, makes it hard to breathe and such) or is much stronger than you, leverage will help, but you are still using alot of strength against strength.
I am very small, short, small boned, lean frame, etc. Using this type of strategy on the ground against someone who is twice my weight (littarly) will not help me in truth, and I have injured myself resisting and using force on force with these "leveraged" techniques against large people.
The best strategy is to get the grappler off you asap, get yourself in position to strike and repeatedly following up until they are done. Change their balance, motion, and body position so they cannot get set to lock out on you, or become positioned for a strong hold.
Negate their structure, balance, and force re-directing them into a position that is more advantageous for you.

I love wrestling, I love ju-jitsu! Ground fighting was sooooo fun! But, WC/WT concepts utilized against a grappler and in ground fighting is just more effecient to me than trying to return the same energy that a stronger, bigger attacker throws at me.
I know that grappling and BJJ have evolved and have been tested against alot of styles in the past and have done very well against alot of traditional martial arts; but that doesn't sway my understanding of WC's effectiveness, practicality, and usefulness in using against a grappler of any sort.

My Sifu also has master level rank in Hakko Ryu and Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu as well as Wing Chun. He can flow from one to the other at the speed of thought practically and says both are very complimentary...and painfully shows this quite regularly. I though BJJ locks hurt but man, the larger joints and chokes feel pleasant compared to the wrist locks! I was a BIIIIIG doubter of wristlocks untill I trained here.

Also Si-Je, just to clarify what I said earlier in the thread was from a "get familiar" angle and not to go train and master all things grappling.

 

[MJS]

My Sifu also has master level rank in Hakko Ryu and Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu as well as Wing Chun. He can flow from one to the other at the speed of thought practically and says both are very complimentary...and painfully shows this quite regularly. I though BJJ locks hurt but man, the larger joints and chokes feel pleasant compared to the wrist locks! I was a BIIIIIG doubter of wristlocks untill I trained here.

Also Si-Je, just to clarify what I said earlier in the thread was from a "get familiar" angle and not to go train and master all things grappling.

You made some great points in this post!! People always tend to think that cross training involves so much work. I've been training in Arnis for a long time and only last year, tested for my black belt. With the time I've been training, one would assume I'd be higher ranked. IMO, its not about that. What it is about is learning, and if that takes X number of years, so be it. I'm far from a BJJ master, but I know enough of the basics.

You also mentioned your inst. being able to flow from one thing to the next. Its amazing how arts that blend together well can do that.

 

[Si-Je]

I am aware of the flow from one technique to the other in ju-jitsu. And as a master, you can do whatever you like because you've mastered what you know.
Plus, WC has plenty of joint locks, and throws/takedowns of it's own. No one art monopolizes a type of technique. (although I've never seen anything like chain punching in any other art before. Kempo does have a great continious flow of hand attacks that could be similar in concept) Their are many variants of the same if not similar techniques in many different arts.

cross-training can seriously confuse the student especially in wing chun.
I've see this many times with our students, other people's students in WC and it usually is more detremental when the student is just starting WC. After more of a full understanding of the art is achieved cross-training is more doable.
But...
We had a two year student that decided to cross-train BJJ. He left us for 8 months and came back to spar my hubbie on the mats. He didn't tell us he went off to train BJJ, he wanted to keep it as a surprise to test out the WT anti-grappling.
It was a very entertaining sparring match, but our student was unable to lock out on Hubbie, much less complete most of the techniques he tried. So, no, I didn't get to see much of BJJ in action, it looked pretty ineffective and incomplete to me, because I didn't know what techniques he was trying to do, nor did I get to see any of them completed.

Moral: this frustrated our student to no end, he'd paid a ton of money to cross-train, and wasted valuble time in WC/WT training. He felt embarressed when he confessed to us that he'd left to cross-train because he knew we didn't think it was a good idea. We don't get upset about cross-training, or forbid it, it just usually causes the student more trouble than it was worth.
That's when we started teaching the anti-grappling earlier in classes to keep the students well rounded in their self defense at an earlier stage.

In reguards with defending against a grappler. Chainpunching, kicking, kneeing as they shoot in, I've found to be very effective. Destroy the head, for the body follows the head every time reguardless what art you take, simple phisiology.

"Attack is defense, defense is attack, each is the cause and result of the other." - Lau Tzu

If they pick you up off your feet to slam you down, keep the neck locked and let them throw you. (I've done this in Ju-Jitsu as well as in WC/WT) The give you the head, then keep that gift! This will take most of the power out of their throw, keep your back from getting slammed flat and losing your breath, keep control of the opponent while being thrown. When on the ground, either use the neck/head to get up with, or let go and start using chi sau sensitivity on your back, chainpunching, leg sensitivity and leverage the oppoent's weight off your body, and re-direct and deflect their energy as you would standing.
roll, corkscrew, and pivot your way out of the hold/position of your attacker and come up "swingin" (i.e. kneeing, kicking, and chainpunching) letting your attackers inertia and body to help you up as you attack.
Don't let them up, don't let them get collected, set, or escape. Punch until their done.

for defense against a clinch standing up against a wall or "cage", use chum kui form (when on arm is on top of the other and you pivot from side to side for example) and use the same technique/concept against the "clinch". This will change their body position and balance freeing you for immediate attack to keep them from re-grouping and flowing to another attack or strategy. (I just learned this one from Hubbie, it was sooo cool! And surprisingly effortless in nature against a really aggressive and strong clinch)

Again, good rooting in stance will give the foundation for further action, whatever it needs to be. Pivoting when the opponent's force is too great will unbalance their attack and allow you to respond with your own attack. A good old fashioned kick, or knee to the face as they shoot in is often effective even if you don't get a tooth knocked out or a TKO, it still disturbs the direction of their inertia and body position severely.
Or just chainpunching or chainpalm striking the back of the head/neck if they are so inclined to shoot in to your legs low enough to expose to you.
These can all be executed in combination, simultaneously with one another, in different succession depending on the need of the situation.
Sensitivity, flow, response, and relaxation are key, as well as not anticipating the opponent's next move.

Hense, why I don't wish to cross-train in grappling arts. This would encourage me to anticipate their next move, try to read them to guess what technique they might try next, and teach me to work within the restraints of their art.
One needs to adapt, react to what is given, stay relaxed, and feel the energy of the opponent to respond correctly to their attack.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

MJS Let me clarify my statement. I am not saying anything about relying on street combat techniques. What I was pointing out to Jarrod is When I first started learning Wing Chun Hair pulling and eye gouge were some of the very basics I was taught in fighting. Also I was taught to use anything as weapon from a pair of pliers you can carry around in your pocket, to combination lock for a locker. All make very good weapons and are compatible with Wing Chun. In my lineage Knee stomping and scraping down the shin is also a technique. My only point to Jarrod was that Wing Chun does in fact teach hair pulling and eye gouging, since he stated he didn't know if they were WC techniques?


Jarrod Said:"but the OP was asking how to do it with strictly WC techniques. i don't know if hair pulling or eye gouging are WC techs, so i was going with what i know about that art."

I've been training in Kenpo for quite some time, and pretty much every tech. in the system has what you mentioned above. Not quite sure of what you're trying to say, but....while those tools are certainly good ones, I wouldn't want to rely on just those. In other words, this is why I say its good to know some ground work.

 

[GBlues]

Well, I'm going to say this and probably catch alot of heat. If a grappler shoots for your legs and you stand still, and chain palm strike his neck or head, if he's got your legs and he's good most likely your going down. Once on the ground the reality is you are fighting his fight, it's not your fight anymore. As far as chain punching the head, that could cause some serious problems for you if you strike in the wrong place, and break your hand. The head is hard. You know in the UFC there were guys that tried chain punching the head, and more often if you watch they aren't landing solid blows number one, the head is round, so there being deflected and taking away much of the power. Secondly most of them ended up in a ground fight. If you are a striker, and that's all you know, you can not let the grappler grab you that's it. Unless you have some wresting or jujitsu, or somekind of grappling experience your done. My instructor routinely in our classes ends the ground game in about 30 seconds. That's not very long. Yeah, he's the instructor, and his partners have been doing it for less time, but some of those guys have 3 or 4 years in grappling. So, to say that your going to break your hand on this guys head, or drop into a perfect stance, that is immovable, well come on. Mistakes happen. Not to mention, the simple fact, that if all you do is strike, regardless of well we have specific techniques to deal with grapplers or not. It will work some of the time, you get in a confrontation with somebody that has some experience and things might change. Also 8 months is not a long time in any martial art.

Now, I will say this she is right about jujitsu taking more strength than people let on. Grappling is alot about power. If you don't have the strength to force the guy to do what you need to do, in order to do the technique, probably you won't get that technique. That's why some of Royce Gracies matches went so long. Not because it was superior skill that one out. It was superior endurance. He let the guy grapple himself to death until he could force a technique on him, and get the submit. 45 minutes is a very long time to do battle. I mean shoot 2 minutes is a long time. Now, not taking anything away from Royce, cause he did have some very fast bouts, but it's still something to consider. The other thing is this if you haven't gone to the ground in a confrontation, and your on equal footing with your opponent, what happens next? If you can grapple you go for the shoot, cause your not winning and have to assume that he either doesn't want to go to the ground or doesn't know how. So if you have a good ground game, that range can be taken into consideration as possible avenue to end the fight. IF you don't it's not really much of an option because again your out of your element. Anyways that's ,my piece.:asian:

 

[Si-Je]

If you punch the back of base of the head and/or neck you can kill a person. (third lumbar for example) We're not punching the forehead like they did repeatedly in the old UFC fights. Plus, most of those guys that did that threw out all their technique as soon as they climbed in the ring.
"chain"Palmstriking the head is just as effective if not more, and a great supplement.
As for the stance, I don't think anyone's claiming that rooting in your stance is invincible or makes you immovable forever. But it surely buys you enough time to re-direct and attack your opponent.
And sure, if a grappler gets ahold of you you are in trouble, but you still don't have to play the grappling game. That's where sensitivity comes in. WT/WC sensitivity, and concepts in deflection of your opponent.

The WT groundfighting is fairly new in the game of wing chun, and folks haven't seen much of it yet. But, we hope to change a bit of that soon.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Si-Je: Your Responses are on mastery Level. You sound like you really know your stuff. Wow, I believe all arts are useful. I believe some arts take longer to be able to fight with than others. Plus your hubbie sounds like he is pretty vetted. I don't think Someone who is in a beginner in Wrestling is going to be your hubby. Now A high school championship wrestler Might do alot better than your average Joe who pays for classes. But still How many years has your Hubbie been training WC. Then look at the wrestlers he defeats and subtract how many years they been practicing Wrestling. Its just simple mathematics. A BJJ fighter who been training for 20 years is going to beat a Wing Chun who been training for 3 years in some cases. An a Wing Chun Guy who has been training for 10 years will more than likely floor a BJJ Guy. Simple isn't it.

No style is superior. Only the Fighter is better. Thats what really matters. But I am not really interested in wrestling. I think those who train for great strength and endurance make better wrestlers. In other words if you can bench press 300lbs and Jump rope for 30 minutes straight with out stopping there aint too many people who are going to be able to out wrestle you. But this is My Humble Opinion. Just like Andre the Giant. A Gracie or average size BJJ wrestler would not be able to Submit Andre the Giant no way. An your average sumo wrestler would mop the floor with a BJJ fighter. But thats because they have more body mass and strength.

So when it comes to Wrestling Skill and technique matter. But if you both have the same skill level than the winner of the fight will be the bigger and stronger. So then Size, Strenght matter.

Si-Je: Your points on using wing chun tactics to defeat a wrestler is well noted. Check out this street fight of these two girls. You will see later in clip one girl rushes in for a take down. The Zakeshia turns the take down around an ends up on a dominant posistion an then grounds an pounds.

Check the video out:

Now these two were evenly match. One was a little bit bigger in weight. But that didn't matter she still loss. Even though Zakeshia doesnt do Wing Chun she was still dominant by using Wing Chun principles such as her sloppy take downs an reversals. She use the attackers force against her an threw her to ground. The heavier girl thought her weight colliding with Zakeshia would knock Zakeshia down. But Zakeshia just asbord her body crash an bounced off her an then swung her around to the ground. I think this amateur video is good a video showing ground fighting in street.


Here is another video of Black guy using his bigger body mass to ground and pound

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuGPk2VfkJM&feature=related

 

[dungeonworks]

All very excellent Advice. I love the input.

dungeonworks Said:"How will you know what to practice for if you don't have an idea what's in a grappler's bag???"

Yoshiyahu: A grappler bag is the black long heavy bag on the floor. You practice trasitioning around the bag. Grabbing the bag. Pulling it etc.Kinda like the bag the mma guy used on the movie "Never Back Down".

Also Dungeonworks doesn't Wing Chun also teach Chokes and Joint Locks?

Nolerama: Don't get taken down, and make sure your strikes count towards a knockout, and are faster than the other guy's.

Yoshiyahu says: Nolerama How do you advoid getting taken to the floor?

seasoned, I am speaking of Tourament,Dojo,sport or friendly challenge match between other martial artist?

Yoshiyahu, I meant it as "Grappler's bag of tricks". Sorry for the confusion. I just think it's imperative to have some type of understanding how other stylists may see a situation. I guess another way of putting it would be for a Wing Chun/Tsun guy to walk a mile in a grappler's shoes. Same could be said for practitioner's of any style. If you don't, you end up training in stale hypothetical situations, such as the one at my first Tae Kwon Do school back in the day. The knife defense in that school was PERECTLY designed to maximize the damage your attacker intended to impose on you! LOL

I know the UFC or MMA is a sport oriented fight game, but it's the closest substitute to a real fight that we may have and if their is one thing we should have learned from the early days is to never neglect aspects of your training. EVERYBODY neglected grappling, so in the begginning, Gracie was subbing most everybody. Stylists of all disciplines were lost and took what the skinny Brazillian had to offer. Now, the Gracies are just a pioneering name in the sport and not domineering as they once were.

The Wing Chun I study is a principle based art and not a technique based art. If you stay within the principles, blocks, locks, and chokes happen as do defense against grappling as I am told. Sifus' demonstrated things that surely would work. Problem is, you have to do everything perfect which is the X-Factor. Me personally, I'd resort to grabbing a throat, deep tissue massage of the eye, grab the nut bag and squeeze, twist flesh, grab a clavicle...ect. The problem is, a good grappler can do all of this too but likely with better positioning and body control than non grapplers (Body Control meaning they move you where they want you).

 

[dungeonworks]

Well, I'm going to say this and probably catch alot of heat. If a grappler shoots for your legs and you stand still, and chain palm strike his neck or head, if he's got your legs and he's good most likely your going down. Once on the ground the reality is you are fighting his fight, it's not your fight anymore. As far as chain punching the head, that could cause some serious problems for you if you strike in the wrong place, and break your hand. The head is hard. You know in the UFC there were guys that tried chain punching the head, and more often if you watch they aren't landing solid blows number one, the head is round, so there being deflected and taking away much of the power. Secondly most of them ended up in a ground fight. If you are a striker, and that's all you know, you can not let the grappler grab you that's it. Unless you have some wresting or jujitsu, or somekind of grappling experience your done. My instructor routinely in our classes ends the ground game in about 30 seconds. That's not very long. Yeah, he's the instructor, and his partners have been doing it for less time, but some of those guys have 3 or 4 years in grappling. So, to say that your going to break your hand on this guys head, or drop into a perfect stance, that is immovable, well come on. Mistakes happen. Not to mention, the simple fact, that if all you do is strike, regardless of well we have specific techniques to deal with grapplers or not. It will work some of the time, you get in a confrontation with somebody that has some experience and things might change. Also 8 months is not a long time in any martial art.

Now, I will say this she is right about jujitsu taking more strength than people let on. Grappling is alot about power. If you don't have the strength to force the guy to do what you need to do, in order to do the technique, probably you won't get that technique. That's why some of Royce Gracies matches went so long. Not because it was superior skill that one out. It was superior endurance. He let the guy grapple himself to death until he could force a technique on him, and get the submit. 45 minutes is a very long time to do battle. I mean shoot 2 minutes is a long time. Now, not taking anything away from Royce, cause he did have some very fast bouts, but it's still something to consider. The other thing is this if you haven't gone to the ground in a confrontation, and your on equal footing with your opponent, what happens next? If you can grapple you go for the shoot, cause your not winning and have to assume that he either doesn't want to go to the ground or doesn't know how. So if you have a good ground game, that range can be taken into consideration as possible avenue to end the fight. IF you don't it's not really much of an option because again your out of your element. Anyways that's ,my piece.:asian:

Thanks for saving me the typing!!! Also, note how many times guys in kickboxing or MMA get kicked in the knee and elbowed in the head....and the fight continues far more than it is ended.

Great post GBlues.

 

[MJS]

MJS Let me clarify my statement. I am not saying anything about relying on street combat techniques. What I was pointing out to Jarrod is When I first started learning Wing Chun Hair pulling and eye gouge were some of the very basics I was taught in fighting. Also I was taught to use anything as weapon from a pair of pliers you can carry around in your pocket, to combination lock for a locker. All make very good weapons and are compatible with Wing Chun. In my lineage Knee stomping and scraping down the shin is also a technique. My only point to Jarrod was that Wing Chun does in fact teach hair pulling and eye gouging, since he stated he didn't know if they were WC techniques?


Jarrod Said:"but the OP was asking how to do it with strictly WC techniques. i don't know if hair pulling or eye gouging are WC techs, so i was going with what i know about that art."

Ok, sorry about that. Must've missed that other post while trying to keep up with everything.

 

[Si-Je]

Thanks for the compliment, I hope to one day reach a level of high compitence. Hubbies trained for a long time in WT and WC, he's really tough and loose at the same time.
I was big headed with my skill in Ju-Jitsu when we met and I first started training. I was really good, confident, and achieved rank in that art. He had a really hard time converting me totally to the Wing Chun way of fighting. (about a good two years of training before my stubborn, Irish, punkrocker, thick headed mentality actually started to truely "get it")!
I've been an irritating student, (not that I ment to be disrespectful or hard) but, because I had such a hard time letting go of old training, and erasing old muscle memory. (my body would just react the way I was taught before I could think)
The ju-jitsu still messes me up when we get to the really close-in fighting of Wing Chun. (working on grade 4 stuff, just getting introduced to bui gee) I keep wanting to grab (or grapple) throw, choke and stuff. I noticed right away that whenever he teaches me the next level of WT/WC and I'm not familiar with that range or movement I fall right back into ju-jitsu. ACK! Frustrating to both of us, I can't help it sometimes, until I start getting comfortable with the new technique, range or whatever.
I wish I could have learned WC instead of ju-jitsu back when I was a kid, my WC training would not have been so hampered. I always pick up new technique fast in any art, except WC/WT. (it really ticks me off sometimes! lol!) But, I think that's because I've trained like 4-5 other arts prior to learning WC/WT. (That's probably why I grab the head/neck when picked up off the ground in a grapplers shoot-in/takedown. Can't seem to get rid of that particular ju-jitsu technique/reflex. But it seems to go well with WT anyways.)
We've noticed that new students to WC that have never taken another art before progress MUCH faster too. Empty cup and all that.
But with everyone wanting to cross-train, we're coming across the same problems with more and more people coming to learn WC. So, I guess I was good training for my teacher too. lol!

 

[Si-Je]

Thanks for saving me the typing!!! Also, note how many times guys in kickboxing or MMA get kicked in the knee and elbowed in the head....and the fight continues far more than it is ended.

Great post GBlues.

The technique when kicking in the knee is different in WC than in kickboxing.
the elbow technique is different in WC than in kickboxing.
You can't look at a strike from another art, and judge that just because a guy can "take it" from a kickboxer or other that they'll have the same reaction to technique from a completely different art.

I've heel kicked large, tough, and heavily muscled men in the knee and their knee collapses just fine. (I don't kick full force of course but in training full force isn't needed, their body position is still changed like I want it to)
You use a kickboxing/mui tai kick, kicking shin to shin or whatever is completly different energy than a WC hook kick or heel kick which will bring an opponent down/collapse the knee whether or not you break it. (which is more highly likely especially if their big and strong)

 

[Si-Je]

ATTACK OF THE CHI!
Check out this guy from Sifu Fungs school, I love this guy. He explaines the concepts of WC really well in reguards to dealing with wrestlers, or whatever.

part 1 of 2

part 2

This is some of the stuff I'm starting to really learn now. Believe it or not (don't care) it works, and is as effective as it is weird.

 

[mook jong man]

I've heel kicked large, tough, and heavily muscled men in the knee and their knee collapses just fine.

The shin is a good target too , ever walked into the edge of a coffee table .
My Sifu showed me once exactly where he aimed his low heel kick and it was just below the knee , slightly to the inside of the shin , there seems to be a nerve point there .
He did it lightly on me and it caused excruciating pain even though he hardly used any power .