How to defeat a Wrestler

[Sukerkin]

Nice video links, Se-Ji.

I'm always a bit suspicious of things that are framed in a somewhat 'Cult-like' fashion with 'hidden wisdom' and so forth but I know from my own years as a Lau-Gar practitioner that the fundamentals of Wing Chun are quite sound and would never dream of trying to argue against something that I know from personal experience works very well as a practical art :tup:.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay Understandable. I make mistakes too Its all apart of reading. Were not perfect readers I suppose.

Ok, sorry about that. Must've missed that other post while trying to keep up with everything.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Si-Je check out your signature. You have Strong spelled wrong as "Stong"

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Si-Je what Lineage does your Hubbie teach?

Because My Sifu often taught chokes,holds,Chin-Na and neck and head grabs along with claw to the face. The first thing I do is grab the head when someone shoots an bury their head to ground if I am fast enough. I was wondering does your hubbie not teach head and neck grabs? As for following back to your comfort zone? Are you speaking of sparring? When you revert back to Ju-Jitsu? Personally I think Judo or Ju-Jitsu compliments Wing Chun very nicely. An so does Muay Thai or Tae Kwon Do. A strong Karate fighter who learns the soft side of Wing Chun along with the flow would be very dangerous as well!

I love the Judo throws. If you can perform them on someone in street thats just impressive. The attackers is on the ground ready to be stomped before he knows it!

Thanks for the compliment, I hope to one day reach a level of high compitence. Hubbies trained for a long time in WT and WC, he's really tough and loose at the same time.
I was big headed with my skill in Ju-Jitsu when we met and I first started training. I was really good, confident, and achieved rank in that art. He had a really hard time converting me totally to the Wing Chun way of fighting. (about a good two years of training before my stubborn, Irish, punkrocker, thick headed mentality actually started to truely "get it")!
I've been an irritating student, (not that I ment to be disrespectful or hard) but, because I had such a hard time letting go of old training, and erasing old muscle memory. (my body would just react the way I was taught before I could think)
The ju-jitsu still messes me up when we get to the really close-in fighting of Wing Chun. (working on grade 4 stuff, just getting introduced to bui gee) I keep wanting to grab (or grapple) throw, choke and stuff. I noticed right away that whenever he teaches me the next level of WT/WC and I'm not familiar with that range or movement I fall right back into ju-jitsu. ACK! Frustrating to both of us, I can't help it sometimes, until I start getting comfortable with the new technique, range or whatever.
I wish I could have learned WC instead of ju-jitsu back when I was a kid, my WC training would not have been so hampered. I always pick up new technique fast in any art, except WC/WT. (it really ticks me off sometimes! lol!) But, I think that's because I've trained like 4-5 other arts prior to learning WC/WT. (That's probably why I grab the head/neck when picked up off the ground in a grapplers shoot-in/takedown. Can't seem to get rid of that particular ju-jitsu technique/reflex. But it seems to go well with WT anyways.)
We've noticed that new students to WC that have never taken another art before progress MUCH faster too. Empty cup and all that.
But with everyone wanting to cross-train, we're coming across the same problems with more and more people coming to learn WC. So, I guess I was good training for my teacher too. lol!

 

[jarrod]

Jarrod. My lineage of Wing Chun has Eyegouges, Thrusting fingers in eyes, Arm breaks, Leg breaks, Joint locks, Take downs and also Hair pulling to punch him in the face!

I have been hearing that Wing Chun schools don't teach this now. But Wing Chun is a street fighting art. So whats allowed in the street is allowed in Wing Chun. That being said all is permissable.

What do you think?

i think that it sounds like a very effective form of WC. i also think that if your WC includes joint locks & takedowns, then grappling is included in your art. so when you asked how to defeat a grappler, i was assuming that you were asking from a perspective of pure striking.

also, my styles of jujitsu include all of the techniques above. sport grappling is the most prevalent form of grappling, but many grapplers don't neglect the down & dirty elements either.

jf

 

[Si-Je]

LOL! That's been like that forever! We're not perfect spellers either. HAHAHAHa.!!
Thanks.

 

[Si-Je]

Si-Je what Lineage does your Hubbie teach?

Because My Sifu often taught chokes,holds,Chin-Na and neck and head grabs along with claw to the face. The first thing I do is grab the head when someone shoots an bury their head to ground if I am fast enough. I was wondering does your hubbie not teach head and neck grabs? As for following back to your comfort zone? Are you speaking of sparring? When you revert back to Ju-Jitsu? Personally I think Judo or Ju-Jitsu compliments Wing Chun very nicely. An so does Muay Thai or Tae Kwon Do. A strong Karate fighter who learns the soft side of Wing Chun along with the flow would be very dangerous as well!

I love the Judo throws. If you can perform them on someone in street thats just impressive. The attackers is on the ground ready to be stomped before he knows it!

Hubbie teaches head and neck throws, I'm just haveing a hard time learning those well. He's the only one I have to work with and him being 6'4" and me 5'4" I feel like I'm over-reaching everytime I try to reach for his head/neck. Gotta throw a kick in there at the same time to work, takes a little more to pick up.
I can do it when somone shoots in to grapple my legs, because, well, they just give you their head. But standing is difficult for me.

Usually I revert to Ju-Jitsu (fighting that though) when he has me deflecting a punch while "shooting in" with advanced stance or such to the point we're body to body standing. 3rd range. I come in that close I want to throw, or choke (we did alot of chokes while standing up in Goshin Ju-Jitsu, we'd strike first to "tenderize the meat" before we threw too. But every technique was only done with the right side. Very bad)
When I feel body on body contact my reflex is to leg sweep, hip or shoulder throw, or wrap the arm for standing joint locks and breaks. This NEVER works on Hubbie. I've tried repeatedly for 4 years! Especially the throws (Mr. black belt in Judo, ack!)
Throws work better when you feed off the opponents forward energy. The wilder, faster and stronger the better. And keeping your feet is cruitial, otherwise there's no point to thowing the guy! To me it's akin to getting a punch in while getting punched at the same time.
But, all this is "small circle" ju-jitsu and mess's up my foreward force. My energy goes everywhere. (That's why he calls me sparky, I guess. lol)

As for stomping on the ground after a throw, had a couple of favorite ju-jitsu moves for that after a throw where you stand on their neck and twist their arm around that same neck standing leg. Good stuff! If you can keep the arm and your own feet after the throw.

His lineage is Sifu Fung and Sifu Boztepe.

 

[Si-Je]

I know the UFC or MMA is a sport oriented fight game, but it's the closest substitute to a real fight that we may have and if their is one thing we should have learned from the early days is to never neglect aspects of your training. EVERYBODY neglected grappling, so in the begginning, Gracie was subbing most everybody. Stylists of all disciplines were lost and took what the skinny Brazillian had to offer. Now, the Gracies are just a pioneering name in the sport and not domineering as they once were.

I never saw a Gracie fight a Japanese Ju-Jitsu fighter. Or a Wing Chun fighter.

 

[Si-Je]

The shin is a good target too , ever walked into the edge of a coffee table .
My Sifu showed me once exactly where he aimed his low heel kick and it was just below the knee , slightly to the inside of the shin , there seems to be a nerve point there .
He did it lightly on me and it caused excruciating pain even though he hardly used any power .

That's what we aim for in heel kick too. good explanation of heel kick

 

[Si-Je]

i think that it sounds like a very effective form of WC. i also think that if your WC includes joint locks & takedowns, then grappling is included in your art. so when you asked how to defeat a grappler, i was assuming that you were asking from a perspective of pure striking.
jf

This is a common misconception of WC. Joint locks and takedowns have always been apart of WC/WT. Again, the Japanese or Brazillians don't have a monopoly on joint, chokes, throws or takedowns. Many, Many arts have these techniques, sometimes in the higher ranks only. Savate (street, not sport), and Zipota have these techniques, Chinese "wrestling" has been around forever, even Muy Tai.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Oh let me clarify my Statement. What I mean about how do you defeat a Wrestler is from standing up. With out being taking to the ground. So from striking standing Joint locks and standing throws and takedowns. How do you defeat a Ground fighter who trying to wrestle you an take you down to ground?

i think that it sounds like a very effective form of WC. i also think that if your WC includes joint locks & takedowns, then grappling is included in your art. So when you asked how to defeat a grappler, i was assuming that you were asking from a perspective of pure striking.

also, my styles of jujitsu include all of the techniques above. sport grappling is the most prevalent form of grappling, but many grapplers don't neglect the down & dirty elements either.

jf

 

[GBlues]

Oh let me clarify my Statement. What I mean about how do you defeat a Wrestler is from standing up. With out being taking to the ground. So from striking standing Joint locks and standing throws and takedowns. How do you defeat a Ground fighter who trying to wrestle you an take you down to ground?

Don't let him grab you. Move around alot! IF you've got room. ANother thing too, if he shoots, you can step back into a wide horse stance for stability. Sink your knees as you drop your elbow into the guys clavicle area. My father did that to me when my wrestling buddies in highschool were showing me things. Stopped me dead in my tracks. Dropped straight to my knees. From there you can keep slamming elbows into that region while mixing it up with elbows to the side of the face or even a good shot to the temple. Be wary about striking with elbows to the temple region, or even to the base of the neck where the spine meets the head. This can cause serious injury, and even death. This is a life or death deal, not trying to stop your buddy that's into grappling when your sparring. After you have stopped him from the shoot with the elbow you may be able to push him off of you and get away. Another effective way is when he shoots throw your legs out behind you like your going to lay belly down on his back. Keeps your legs further away, and frees your arms up again for elbow, strikes, and punches. For me it's a rather difficult move and is just really putting off the inevitable fact that now your grappling. YOu can also when you throw your legs out behind you snake your arm, ( either one) around his throat performing ( I believe correct me if I'm wrong), a guillotine choke. He'll either A: Try to gain control of your legs, B: Break the choke, or C: try to get out of it by standing up. HOld on! Throw your legs further out, putting more of your weight on his back, you have leverage on your side now. DOn't let go, till he taps, (sparring), or is unconscious,(self-defense). Those are ones that I usually try to work with depending on the situation and have used them all, to varying degrees of success. I hope that was helpful. Generally this last one ususally for me anyways only works against somebody that thinks they can wrestle or grapple but doesn't really have a clue. Cause really there are lots of ways to get out of those for grapplers and wrestlers. I have some knowledge of grappling but there are others here that most assuredly could and would make mince meat out of me on the ground. Again I hope this was helpful.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I am no black belt in Judo. I wish. But I love to add a little of judo in my Wing Chun. I like to interelate styles to confuse someone I am sparring with. Most of the time I tell people I practice Tai Chi. So when we spar they have preconceive notion Of how I am going to spar. But actually I have been studing the Tai Chi Seriously for less than a Year. I started seriously studing the Tai Chi This pass summer. So I guess its been about six months. I have been practicing the Wing Chun since I was 16 and Now I am 32. So I use other tactics to keep them guessing so they can't form a strategy. I use high kicks from time to time so they think maybe he is a kick boxer. Then when they attempt to close the gap to stop my kicks. I turn up the Wing Chun.

Hubbie teaches head and neck throws, I'm just haveing a hard time learning those well. He's the only one I have to work with and him being 6'4" and me 5'4" I feel like I'm over-reaching everytime I try to reach for his head/neck. Gotta throw a kick in there at the same time to work, takes a little more to pick up.
I can do it when somone shoots in to grapple my legs, because, well, they just give you their head. But standing is difficult for me.

Usually I revert to Ju-Jitsu (fighting that though) when he has me deflecting a punch while "shooting in" with advanced stance or such to the point we're body to body standing. 3rd range. I come in that close I want to throw, or choke (we did alot of chokes while standing up in Goshin Ju-Jitsu, we'd strike first to "tenderize the meat" before we threw too. But every technique was only done with the right side. Very bad)
When I feel body on body contact my reflex is to leg sweep, hip or shoulder throw, or wrap the arm for standing joint locks and breaks. This NEVER works on Hubbie. I've tried repeatedly for 4 years! Especially the throws (Mr. black belt in Judo, ack!)
Throws work better when you feed off the opponents forward energy. The wilder, faster and stronger the better. And keeping your feet is cruitial, otherwise there's no point to thowing the guy! To me it's akin to getting a punch in while getting punched at the same time.
But, all this is "small circle" ju-jitsu and mess's up my foreward force. My energy goes everywhere. (That's why he calls me sparky, I guess. lol)

As for stomping on the ground after a throw, had a couple of favorite ju-jitsu moves for that after a throw where you stand on their neck and twist their arm around that same neck standing leg. Good stuff! If you can keep the arm and your own feet after the throw.

His lineage is Sifu Fung and Sifu Boztepe.

 

[MJS]

ATTACK OF THE CHI!
Check out this guy from Sifu Fungs school, I love this guy. He explaines the concepts of WC really well in reguards to dealing with wrestlers, or whatever.

part 1 of 2

part 2

This is some of the stuff I'm starting to really learn now. Believe it or not (don't care) it works, and is as effective as it is weird.

I have a question. In the first clip, when he was doing the headlock defense, he was still in an upright position vs. being bent over, the way a true headlock would be applied. So, was his intention to show what he could do while standing, with the attack not fully applied? Would this same move work had the attack been applied fully, and being bent over?

 

[MJS]

I am aware of the flow from one technique to the other in ju-jitsu. And as a master, you can do whatever you like because you've mastered what you know.
Plus, WC has plenty of joint locks, and throws/takedowns of it's own. No one art monopolizes a type of technique. (although I've never seen anything like chain punching in any other art before. Kempo does have a great continious flow of hand attacks that could be similar in concept) Their are many variants of the same if not similar techniques in many different arts.

cross-training can seriously confuse the student especially in wing chun.
I've see this many times with our students, other people's students in WC and it usually is more detremental when the student is just starting WC. After more of a full understanding of the art is achieved cross-training is more doable.
But...
We had a two year student that decided to cross-train BJJ. He left us for 8 months and came back to spar my hubbie on the mats. He didn't tell us he went off to train BJJ, he wanted to keep it as a surprise to test out the WT anti-grappling.
It was a very entertaining sparring match, but our student was unable to lock out on Hubbie, much less complete most of the techniques he tried. So, no, I didn't get to see much of BJJ in action, it looked pretty ineffective and incomplete to me, because I didn't know what techniques he was trying to do, nor did I get to see any of them completed.

Moral: this frustrated our student to no end, he'd paid a ton of money to cross-train, and wasted valuble time in WC/WT training. He felt embarressed when he confessed to us that he'd left to cross-train because he knew we didn't think it was a good idea. We don't get upset about cross-training, or forbid it, it just usually causes the student more trouble than it was worth.
That's when we started teaching the anti-grappling earlier in classes to keep the students well rounded in their self defense at an earlier stage.

In reguards with defending against a grappler. Chainpunching, kicking, kneeing as they shoot in, I've found to be very effective. Destroy the head, for the body follows the head every time reguardless what art you take, simple phisiology.

"Attack is defense, defense is attack, each is the cause and result of the other." - Lau Tzu

If they pick you up off your feet to slam you down, keep the neck locked and let them throw you. (I've done this in Ju-Jitsu as well as in WC/WT) The give you the head, then keep that gift! This will take most of the power out of their throw, keep your back from getting slammed flat and losing your breath, keep control of the opponent while being thrown. When on the ground, either use the neck/head to get up with, or let go and start using chi sau sensitivity on your back, chainpunching, leg sensitivity and leverage the oppoent's weight off your body, and re-direct and deflect their energy as you would standing.
roll, corkscrew, and pivot your way out of the hold/position of your attacker and come up "swingin" (i.e. kneeing, kicking, and chainpunching) letting your attackers inertia and body to help you up as you attack.
Don't let them up, don't let them get collected, set, or escape. Punch until their done.

for defense against a clinch standing up against a wall or "cage", use chum kui form (when on arm is on top of the other and you pivot from side to side for example) and use the same technique/concept against the "clinch". This will change their body position and balance freeing you for immediate attack to keep them from re-grouping and flowing to another attack or strategy. (I just learned this one from Hubbie, it was sooo cool! And surprisingly effortless in nature against a really aggressive and strong clinch)

Again, good rooting in stance will give the foundation for further action, whatever it needs to be. Pivoting when the opponent's force is too great will unbalance their attack and allow you to respond with your own attack. A good old fashioned kick, or knee to the face as they shoot in is often effective even if you don't get a tooth knocked out or a TKO, it still disturbs the direction of their inertia and body position severely.
Or just chainpunching or chainpalm striking the back of the head/neck if they are so inclined to shoot in to your legs low enough to expose to you.
These can all be executed in combination, simultaneously with one another, in different succession depending on the need of the situation.
Sensitivity, flow, response, and relaxation are key, as well as not anticipating the opponent's next move.

Hense, why I don't wish to cross-train in grappling arts. This would encourage me to anticipate their next move, try to read them to guess what technique they might try next, and teach me to work within the restraints of their art.
One needs to adapt, react to what is given, stay relaxed, and feel the energy of the opponent to respond correctly to their attack.

Thanks for taking the time to explain things. Hey, crosstraining may not be for everyone. IMO, I think there is alot of value in it, so on that aspect, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Out of curiosity, what is your husbands grappling background? Has he done any ground work or does he strictly stick with WC antigrappling?

 

[mook jong man]

I am from that school and it is drilled into us from day one to maintain structure by having a straight back , your body can be pulled forward or back or from the side but your neck and spine will stay in alignment .

From what i have seen of the man you would be very hard pressed to make him bend over , even if you did manage it he would just do a different application from the Bil Gee form .

 

[seasoned]

I am from that school and it is drilled into us from day one to maintain structure by having a straight back , your body can be pulled forward or back or from the side but your neck and spine will stay in alignment .

From what i have seen of the man you would be very hard pressed to make him bend over , even if you did manage it he would just do a different application from the Bil Gee form .

I like your point. Structure, as we all know, is always maintained on our part, as we try to disrupt it on the part of out aggressor. Si-Fu showed some links of a person using techniques that looked weak, but in reality I saw him disrupting the structure of his volunteer. Once any attack is aloud to proceed past that window of opportunity, where we can easily disrupt his movement then it is harder to defend against . Case in point, in the video as the head lock was being applied, the attackers structure, from my observation , was immediately broken before the lock or strike could be applied. As the arm comes around the neck, both persons are up right, and at this time you need to disrupt, “unbalance” that person so as to stop their technique. Some schools of thought are to learn how to get out of holds, and other schools of thought are to react in the first stages of their movement. I know as a beginner, we learned to block a front kick. But as a higher belt we learned to stop the foot as it leaves the floor. But as an advanced student we observed a weight change in our opponent, and reacted to his technique before it even starts. At the master level a person can see your intentions before you think them. Mystical, no,. With this advanced stage of training, you are no faster then you were in the beginner level, but what you have gained with years of training is a sensing, and feeling ability that far exceeds any speed you can ever work at. One analogy, then I will rest my point. When you first learn to drive a car, a ball bounces out into the road. At the permit level, mind and foot are not one, and the ball gets run over. Stage two after many years of driving you perceive movement up ahead, see kids playing ball, and if it happens to end up in the road, you are able to react early on. My finishing statement is, you learn so you can forget. The learning needs to be complete, so you own it. The forgetting, must also be complete, so the mind is open and free to react. Thought to ponder.

 

[MJS]

I am from that school and it is drilled into us from day one to maintain structure by having a straight back , your body can be pulled forward or back or from the side but your neck and spine will stay in alignment .

From what i have seen of the man you would be very hard pressed to make him bend over , even if you did manage it he would just do a different application from the Bil Gee form .

I like your point. Structure, as we all know, is always maintained on our part, as we try to disrupt it on the part of out aggressor. Si-Fu showed some links of a person using techniques that looked weak, but in reality I saw him disrupting the structure of his volunteer. Once any attack is aloud to proceed past that window of opportunity, where we can easily disrupt his movement then it is harder to defend against . Case in point, in the video as the head lock was being applied, the attackers structure, from my observation , was immediately broken before the lock or strike could be applied. As the arm comes around the neck, both persons are up right, and at this time you need to disrupt, “unbalance” that person so as to stop their technique. Some schools of thought are to learn how to get out of holds, and other schools of thought are to react in the first stages of their movement. I know as a beginner, we learned to block a front kick. But as a higher belt we learned to stop the foot as it leaves the floor. But as an advanced student we observed a weight change in our opponent, and reacted to his technique before it even starts. At the master level a person can see your intentions before you think them. Mystical, no,. With this advanced stage of training, you are no faster then you were in the beginner level, but what you have gained with years of training is a sensing, and feeling ability that far exceeds any speed you can ever work at. One analogy, then I will rest my point. When you first learn to drive a car, a ball bounces out into the road. At the permit level, mind and foot are not one, and the ball gets run over. Stage two after many years of driving you perceive movement up ahead, see kids playing ball, and if it happens to end up in the road, you are able to react early on. My finishing statement is, you learn so you can forget. The learning needs to be complete, so you own it. The forgetting, must also be complete, so the mind is open and free to react. Thought to ponder.

Thank you both for your replies. Seasoned, after reading your reply, this sounds like what I would call pre-empting the attack, with a strike/defense of your own. If we saw someone cock their hand back for the haymaker type punch, its pretty much a no brainer to know whats coming next.

Now hopefully you can answer my next question. Of course, if someone was reaching towards us, one would expect that we'd begin our defense then, not waiting. ex: someone starts reaching towards us to grab our lapel. At that point, we could defend even though the grab has not happened. Now, in the case of the video clip with the headlock, had this been fully applied, what would his response have been? At that point, obviously his structure isn't as stable as if he were standing. In my art, Kenpo, we have defenses in the event that the attack is actually completed. Harder to defend? Sure, however, there are still ways to cancel out certain actions of our opponent.

Looking forward to your reply.

Mike

 

[mook jong man]

Thank you both for your replies. Seasoned, after reading your reply, this sounds like what I would call pre-empting the attack, with a strike/defense of your own. If we saw someone cock their hand back for the haymaker type punch, its pretty much a no brainer to know whats coming next.

Now hopefully you can answer my next question. Of course, if someone was reaching towards us, one would expect that we'd begin our defense then, not waiting. ex: someone starts reaching towards us to grab our lapel. At that point, we could defend even though the grab has not happened. Now, in the case of the video clip with the headlock, had this been fully applied, what would his response have been? At that point, obviously his structure isn't as stable as if he were standing. In my art, Kenpo, we have defenses in the event that the attack is actually completed. Harder to defend? Sure, however, there are still ways to cancel out certain actions of our opponent.

Looking forward to your reply.

Mike

MJS the man in the clip has been training for about 22 years I think and he is at a very high level not all Wing Chun guys could do what he is doing . You must understand that learning the Bil Gee form is many years down the track for most Wing Chun people .

From memory I think the Bil Gee application when bent over in a head lock is to put your out stretched arm in front of the opponents neck and force their head back as you straighten your back and stand up .

Obviously this takes a high level of skill against a strong attacker , so most people in the junior grades are taught to strike to the groin as soon as they feel they are being pulled down into a headlock .

I can't say this is true for all Wing Chun schools because they are all different but this is what we did at our school when I was there about 8 years ago .

But it could be a bit different now because some of the chief instructors have achieved high rank in BJJ and I think they teach a fair bit of ground fighting there now but with a more self defence orientated slant .

 

[MJS]

MJS the man in the clip has been training for about 22 years I think and he is at a very high level not all Wing Chun guys could do what he is doing . You must understand that learning the Bil Gee form is many years down the track for most Wing Chun people .

From memory I think the Bil Gee application when bent over in a head lock is to put your out stretched arm in front of the opponents neck and force their head back as you straighten your back and stand up .

Obviously this takes a high level of skill against a strong attacker , so most people in the junior grades are taught to strike to the groin as soon as they feel they are being pulled down into a headlock .

I can't say this is true for all Wing Chun schools because they are all different but this is what we did at our school when I was there about 8 years ago .

But it could be a bit different now because some of the chief instructors have achieved high rank in BJJ and I think they teach a fair bit of ground fighting there now but with a more self defence orientated slant .

Thanks for your reply. :ultracool I'm not familiar with the form you mention, however, the concept of using the arm is familiar. We check the opponents leg with ours, while doing 2 hammerfist strikes, one to the groin and one to the kidney area. Our rear hand can then reach up behind and grab whatever is available, ie: hair, eyes, nose, chin, pulling their head back, allowing us to continue the defense.