How to defeat a Wrestler

[Si-Je]

Why did you have to take BJJ Classes?

Oh, everyone always complaines when I talk about this stuff on here that I've never taken BJJ for weeks, months, or years, whatever.
We went to a couple of seminars, and have trained with BJJ students of 8 onths to 10 years in our sparring classes back when when had a building for the school.
It just isn't an art I want to devote time to learning from what I've been exposed to. It'll just mess up my WC/WT, get in the way of working on striking and keeping my space from attacker when they are in grappling range. I don't want to play their game, I want to play my game, WC/WT.

 

[Si-Je]

I've tried this as well. Of course, one of the main differences between actually making the tech. work or not, is having the arm glued to your chest before you begin to go down for the armbar. Additionally, you (the person doing the armbar) need to be close to the other person. If there is a gap that will make it much easier to escape/resist. ?

Yes, I was as close as you could get. Had his arm right in my cleavage, totally on the chest from beginning to end.
It is simple physics. He outweighs me 100% body mass, he benches 250lbs, He curls 100 lbs. I weigh all together 120 lbs, it's easy for him to curl my bodyweight with one arm enough to get out. Just not going to work on a larger opponent. That's why they have weight classes in UFC so this stuff will work.

Personally, I never understood why someone would continue to focus on getting that lock if they're having that much difficulty. I mean, like you said, why not move onto something else?

I agree totally, and only demonstrate the technique to teach the students the favorite BJJ armbar, so they can practice getting out of it with WT anti-grappling, so it's as "real" as we can get it. When they get that down, I lock out on them using Japanese Ju-jitsu, when they can get out of those locks then their set. When they can use tan sau and corkscrew their body and get out of a joint locked wrist, elbow, and shoulder in jeporady then any joint lock they come across will be escapeable. But, that is waaaaay further on in their training.
The BJJ techniques are much easier to start with to train them how to escape locks and holds without injury to the learning student. I'm just now learning how to escape from JJJ techniques. This is all where chi sau comes into full play.

 

[MJS]

Yes, I was as close as you could get. Had his arm right in my cleavage, totally on the chest from beginning to end.
It is simple physics. He outweighs me 100% body mass, he benches 250lbs, He curls 100 lbs. I weigh all together 120 lbs, it's easy for him to curl my bodyweight with one arm enough to get out. Just not going to work on a larger opponent. That's why they have weight classes in UFC so this stuff will work.

So, let me ask you this...pre weight class, you had Royce fighting guys that outwieghed him and he still pulled off the win, although it did take a bit of time. IIRC, the idea of BJJ, again, in the Royce days, was technique over strength. Today, watching some of the MMA matches, yes, the focus now seems to be G&P as well as trying to use strength over tech.

For the record, I'm not a BJJ nutrider. I do enjoy BJJ, however, I'm not so blind that I think that its the best thing since sliced bread. LOL.

 

[Si-Je]

So, let me ask you this...pre weight class, you had Royce fighting guys that outwieghed him and he still pulled off the win, although it did take a bit of time. IIRC, the idea of BJJ, again, in the Royce days, was technique over strength. Today, watching some of the MMA matches, yes, the focus now seems to be G&P as well as trying to use strength over tech.

For the record, I'm not a BJJ nutrider. I do enjoy BJJ, however, I'm not so blind that I think that its the best thing since sliced bread. LOL.

Royce did fight larger men in the day, but he's not a small man. he's 6'2" and was about 185 lbs of lean muscle. This is nowhere what I've got going for me, or just about ANY woman. I've 5'4" 120lbs. of soft, just had a baby couple of years ago muscle. lol! (no, I'm in really good shape, but still)
My arm length is half hubbie's arm reach, for me to use these techniques on a guy like him is just very highly improbable.
So, for a tiny woman bebopin' around in life if I get attacked by the unknown attacker he could be bigger and more muscular than hubbie. (who is very lean for his height of 6'5" not alot of body builder type mucles. Just wicked athletic build strength)
To me, this very technique could possibly litteraly put my life in danger, and so many women believe that training BJJ is the best way to defeat a larger and stronger man. This is just not true. Not scientifically, not practially, and not realisticly true.

Why should I train this when I KNOW it won't work on a much larger and stronger attacker?

That's why these MMA guys are hitting the weight room because they know they have a much chance of beating a BJJ fighter with bulk and strength.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Didn't the UFC start off with out weight classes and gloves.

That's why they have weight classes in UFC so this stuff will work.

 

[MJS]

Royce did fight larger men in the day, but he's not a small man. he's 6'2" and was about 185 lbs of lean muscle. This is nowhere what I've got going for me, or just about ANY woman. I've 5'4" 120lbs. of soft, just had a baby couple of years ago muscle. lol! (no, I'm in really good shape, but still)
My arm length is half hubbie's arm reach, for me to use these techniques on a guy like him is just very highly improbable.
So, for a tiny woman bebopin' around in life if I get attacked by the unknown attacker he could be bigger and more muscular than hubbie. (who is very lean for his height of 6'5" not alot of body builder type mucles. Just wicked athletic build strength)
To me, this very technique could possibly litteraly put my life in danger, and so many women believe that training BJJ is the best way to defeat a larger and stronger man. This is just not true. Not scientifically, not practially, and not realisticly true.

Why should I train this when I KNOW it won't work on a much larger and stronger attacker?

That's why these MMA guys are hitting the weight room because they know they have a much chance of beating a BJJ fighter with bulk and strength.

A few questions:

You said, "He curls 100 lbs."

Is this 1 handed or with both hands?

As for this post...according to Sherdog, and this very well could've changed, Royce is 6'0 and 176lbs. He beat Dan Severn who is 6'2, 250. He beat Kimo who is 6'3, 235. Remco Paroel 6'2, 250.

And then we have Helio Gracie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hélio_Gracie

Due to his smaller size, he realized many of the judo moves required brute strength that his diminutive stature did not allow. He began adapting the moves for his particular physical attributes, and through trial and error learned to maximize leverage, thus minimizing the force that needed to be exerted to execute the move. From these experiments, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, formally Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, was created. Using these new techniques, smaller and weaker opponents gained the capability to defend themselves and even defeat much larger opponents.

As for the fighters of today..IMHO, the UFC has changed its focus. The original focus was to pit style vs. style, to show that GJJ was superior, that you did not need to be a huge man in order to defeat someone.

 

[MJS]

Didn't the UFC start off with out weight classes and gloves.

Yes.

 

[Si-Je]

When did Royce Gracie beat Kimbo Slice? They have never fought. (not that I've ever heard)
Last time I saw Royce fight he got beaten by an American collegic wrestler (Matt Hughes), and he pounded his head in the mat from behind. inchworm style.

Hubbie curls 100lbs both arms. He curls me with both arms. Sure, pin his other hand with my legs, which my legs are as big as his arm that I'm trying to pin. Sounds like an arm wrestling match to me, not very effecient.
(again, why would one even try to do this?! It's a mystery to me. I'd much rather have him on his side and my knees in his ribs and neck with his arm wrapped leaving him only one way to roll,.. and that will dislocate his shoulder or break his own elbow. That's JJJ style.)

Or even better, have my knee in his groin/gut, and the other knee in his throat and be chainpunching his brains out. Ryding him like a boogie board where ever he trys to roll to, constantly chain punching his head, ribs, throat, stomach, groin, whatever. That's anti-grappling style.

Royces weight, height, and strength ratio is nothing comparied to the contrast between someone of my size against someone as tall, heavy, and strong as hubbie.
You tell a small man, my size and weight, and have them do this on another man hubbies size and weight, then I'll consider these techniques.

Even with the added leverage you use in Japanese Ju-Jitsu you still need a ton of strength to pull off those techniques against larger stronger opponents. That's when I used to lift weights to get stronger for JJJ class. Well, I'm not 18 anymore, and don't want to have to be doing that. It's a waste of time, unless you just like spending hours in the gym. And I HATE the gym, it's a meat market. lol! When I want to work out, I want to be left alone. so anyways....

What was the question again? lol.
Oh, and yes, they didn't have weight classes or gloves in the early days of UFC. That's when it was fun. But, that's when the JJJ sensi elbowed some poor guy in the head until he crushed in the entire side of his face. Very horrible. But, that's what I was taught, so oh well.

I never saw Gracie fight a JJJ fighter, WT/WC fighter, a Judo fighter (he may have, just haven't see that one yet), or a Suai Jaou fighter (chinese wrestling, can't spell it. ack.) etc..
there are certian stylist that he chooses not to fight. Sure, he fought a couple of kung fu stylists, but that doesn't cover ALL kung fu, and it doesn't prove BJJ against kung fu. Ever see the movie fearless with Jet Li, true story about a real wu shu founder, and he fought fighters for years before he came out on top as the best kung fu. That's because there's sooooo many.

 

[Si-Je]

A few questions:

You said, "He curls 100 lbs."

Is this 1 handed or with both hands?

As for this post...according to Sherdog, and this very well could've changed, Royce is 6'0 and 176lbs. He beat Dan Severn who is 6'2, 250. He beat Kimo who is 6'3, 235. Remco Paroel 6'2, 250.
.

250-176= is a 74lb weigh difference. 235-120=115 lb weight difference. very drastic in comparision. now Add that royce was only 2 inches shorter than Severn, and that I am a full foot shorter than a man of hubbies stature. Arm range of me and hubbie, he can hit me in face before my fist gets to his bicep. His arm reach is 80 inches. I don't know what mine is, about 55-60 on a guess.

As for the fighters of today..IMHO, the UFC has changed its focus. The original focus was to pit style vs. style, to show that GJJ was superior, that you did not need to be a huge man in order to defeat someone.

That may be so as in back in the day. When it first came out I wasn't aware that the Gracie family owned some of the stock and sat on the board of directors or whatever for the UFC. That really changes my attitude and perspective of the old UFC fights. They seem, more set up to favor GJJ.
But, I never got the impression that a "small" man could defeat a really larger stronger man using GJJ or BJJ whatever from the early days. Just saw another lean, muscular, tall man wrapping his entire body around another man's single arm, or choking them out with a Gi, etc. I knew better then, and I really know better now NOT to believe that hog wash. I was taking JJJ when the Gracies came out, we all watched it together, and laughed. Honestly.
Some of the techniques may have looked familiar for a second, then he does something completely off the wall, don't know where that stuff came from. Must be a Brazil thing, seriously.
I really enjoyed watching Ken Shamrock beating Royce in the old UFC days, that was a 45 minute fight of you watching two big buys hugging each other on the matts, hardly moving at all. They were at a stalemate for 45 minutes! The most boring fight ever, what won the match? The strength and Stamina of the larger, stronger fighter Ken Shamrock.
Done deal. That's what UFC taught me about BJJ.

Ken Shamrock won this fight. I don't care what anyone says.

Who's lookin' pretty now? The stronger fighter.

 

[MJS]

When did Royce Gracie beat Kimbo Slice? They have never fought. (not that I've ever heard)
Last time I saw Royce fight he got beaten by an American collegic wrestler (Matt Hughes), and he pounded his head in the mat from behind. inchworm style.

No, not Kimbo, Kimo, from UFC3.
http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Kimo-Leopoldo-43

Hubbie curls 100lbs both arms. He curls me with both arms. Sure, pin his other hand with my legs, which my legs are as big as his arm that I'm trying to pin. Sounds like an arm wrestling match to me, not very effecient.
(again, why would one even try to do this?! It's a mystery to me. I'd much rather have him on his side and my knees in his ribs and neck with his arm wrapped leaving him only one way to roll,.. and that will dislocate his shoulder or break his own elbow. That's JJJ style.)

Or even better, have my knee in his groin/gut, and the other knee in his throat and be chainpunching his brains out. Ryding him like a boogie board where ever he trys to roll to, constantly chain punching his head, ribs, throat, stomach, groin, whatever. That's anti-grappling style.

Royces weight, height, and strength ratio is nothing comparied to the contrast between someone of my size against someone as tall, heavy, and strong as hubbie.
You tell a small man, my size and weight, and have them do this on another man hubbies size and weight, then I'll consider these techniques.

Even with the added leverage you use in Japanese Ju-Jitsu you still need a ton of strength to pull off those techniques against larger stronger opponents. That's when I used to lift weights to get stronger for JJJ class. Well, I'm not 18 anymore, and don't want to have to be doing that. It's a waste of time, unless you just like spending hours in the gym. And I HATE the gym, it's a meat market. lol! When I want to work out, I want to be left alone. so anyways....

What was the question again? lol.
Oh, and yes, they didn't have weight classes or gloves in the early days of UFC. That's when it was fun. But, that's when the JJJ sensi elbowed some poor guy in the head until he crushed in the entire side of his face. Very horrible. But, that's what I was taught, so oh well.

We could go round and round with this. The fact remains that GJJ fighters have fought and beat people who are larger.

God, the more I talk about this, I feel so dirty, like those BJJ nutriders. LOL!

I never saw Gracie fight a JJJ fighter, WT/WC fighter, a Judo fighter (he may have, just haven't see that one yet), or a Suai Jaou fighter (chinese wrestling, can't spell it. ack.) etc..
there are certian stylist that he chooses not to fight. Sure, he fought a couple of kung fu stylists, but that doesn't cover ALL kung fu, and it doesn't prove BJJ against kung fu. Ever see the movie fearless with Jet Li, true story about a real wu shu founder, and he fought fighters for years before he came out on top as the best kung fu. That's because there's sooooo many.

Hey, I don't know what to tell you. Personally, I'd have loved to have seen the Royce/Emin fight, but it seems like both sides not agree. Oh well....

 

[MJS]

250-176= is a 74lb weigh difference. 235-120=115 lb weight difference. very drastic in comparision. now Add that royce was only 2 inches shorter than Severn, and that I am a full foot shorter than a man of hubbies stature. Arm range of me and hubbie, he can hit me in face before my fist gets to his bicep. His arm reach is 80 inches. I don't know what mine is, about 55-60 on a guess.

Fact remains he fought Severn primarily on his back for their entire fight, and still pulled off a win.

That may be so as in back in the day. When it first came out I wasn't aware that the Gracie family owned some of the stock and sat on the board of directors or whatever for the UFC. That really changes my attitude and perspective of the old UFC fights. They seem, more set up to favor GJJ.

Yes, thats very possible and possibly quite true.

But, I never got the impression that a "small" man could defeat a really larger stronger man using GJJ or BJJ whatever from the early days. Just saw another lean, muscular, tall man wrapping his entire body around another man's single arm, or choking them out with a Gi, etc. I knew better then, and I really know better now NOT to believe that hog wash. I was taking JJJ when the Gracies came out, we all watched it together, and laughed. Honestly.

Like I said, I'm not going to go round and round. Its out there, its been proven. Of course, I could turn the tables, and say that its laughable that you think that WC is the ultimate art as well. Judging by some of your posts, that is the impression that you give off.

Some of the techniques may have looked familiar for a second, then he does something completely off the wall, don't know where that stuff came from. Must be a Brazil thing, seriously.
I really enjoyed watching Ken Shamrock beating Royce in the old UFC days, that was a 45 minute fight of you watching two big buys hugging each other on the matts, hardly moving at all. They were at a stalemate for 45 minutes! The most boring fight ever, what won the match? The strength and Stamina of the larger, stronger fighter Ken Shamrock.
Done deal. That's what UFC taught me about BJJ.

That fight, the joke that it was, was declaired a draw. And before you get too cocky, Shamrock lost to Gracie in UFC 1 to a RNC.

Ken Shamrock won this fight. I don't care what anyone says.

Who's lookin' pretty now? The stronger fighter.

Can't watch this fight at work. I'll have to comment on that later.

 

[Si-Je]

No, not Kimbo, Kimo, from UFC3.
http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Kimo-Leopoldo-43



We could go round and round with this. The fact remains that GJJ fighters have fought and beat people who are larger.

God, the more I talk about this, I feel so dirty, like those BJJ nutriders. LOL!....

Okay, I remember Kimo, the simoan guy? Didn't he have long hair in that fight and Gracie was yanking on his doo? If that's the fight I'm remembering, they stopped that fight too early. Kimo never tapped out, wasn't locked out either. Gracie had him in an armbar but Kimo was curling out of it when they stopped the fight.

BJJ nutriders, lol! I'm gonna use that one! that's good.

But, your right, we could go on forever and people have. They just call Gracie undefeated, I disagree.

Hey, I don't know what to tell you. Personally, I'd have loved to have seen the Royce/Emin fight, but it seems like both sides not agree. Oh well....

That would be groovy! But, why make UFC more rich off such an awesome fight? I think that was the biggest problem. Besides, you've got two "emporers" with their own kingdoms so to speak, why do either of them need to risk that? Get their student's to do the work, that's the benefit of becoming someone who's already made a name for themselves. No need for either of them to prove anything else. It's time for the next generation to do that....
hint, hint... lol!

 

[Si-Je]

Fact remains he fought Severn primarily on his back for their entire fight, and still pulled off a win.

Like I said, I'm not going to go round and round. Its out there, its been proven. Of course, I could turn the tables, and say that its laughable that you think that WC is the ultimate art as well. Judging by some of your posts, that is the impression that you give off.

That fight, the joke that it was, was declaired a draw. And before you get too cocky, Shamrock lost to Gracie in UFC 1 to a RNC.

I know Gracie beat Shamrock in UFC 1, just don't like that fact that he declares he's totally undefeated. Just not true.

As for WC/WT being the ultimate art in my opinion. Well sure, why would I train it? lol!
no, really, it's just the most effecient and practical art I've ever come across. It's enabled me to defend in situations I always thought impossible.
So what if I think it's the ultimate? People often have that opinion of the arts they train, BJJ, MMA, karate, TKD, judo, penjak silat, krav maga, etc...

I have unwavering faith in the art I train, and will not be convinced by those that want to say it's not totally bad a**, because they don't like it, understand it, or have never heard of it. Whatever their reasoning for trying to convince me it's not well rounded and a "complete system" of fighting is just bunk.

1. It has weapons in it.
2. It has ground fighting (anti-grappling) in it and takedowns/throws
3. It has pressure points, nerves, chi in it (avoiding grappling and takedowns completely with stance and structure, then learning how to attack your opponent's structure with that same energy)
4. It encompasses the five fighting distances in it and trains you how to engage in each distance.

How can it not be a completely well rounded system? This is why I think it's the ultimate. I don't need to crosstrain, I just need to finish learning THIS art.

And that will never happen, your always learning WT/WC forever. lol! But, that's okay with me. And yes, I'm uppitty still love ya'll though!

 

[MJS]

Okay, I remember Kimo, the simoan guy? Didn't he have long hair in that fight and Gracie was yanking on his doo? If that's the fight I'm remembering, they stopped that fight too early. Kimo never tapped out, wasn't locked out either. Gracie had him in an armbar but Kimo was curling out of it when they stopped the fight.

Here is that fight:

If you look close, you will see Kimo tap and yes, it seems that the arm was locked.

BJJ nutriders, lol! I'm gonna use that one! that's good.

Applies to other arts as well, not just BJJ.

But, your right, we could go on forever and people have. They just call Gracie undefeated, I disagree.

Yup.

That would be groovy! But, why make UFC more rich off such an awesome fight? I think that was the biggest problem. Besides, you've got two "emporers" with their own kingdoms so to speak, why do either of them need to risk that? Get their student's to do the work, that's the benefit of becoming someone who's already made a name for themselves. No need for either of them to prove anything else. It's time for the next generation to do that....
hint, hint... lol!

Personally, the Gracies have the 'anywhere, anyone, anyplace' motto, so I don't know why they just didn't hold the fight at the Gracie Academy? Royce comes off as the best in the world, as does Emin, so both should just stop making excuses and just fight.

 

[MJS]

I know Gracie beat Shamrock in UFC 1, just don't like that fact that he declares he's totally undefeated. Just not true.

I believe he has more losses than he lets on.

As for WC/WT being the ultimate art in my opinion. Well sure, why would I train it? lol!
no, really, it's just the most effecient and practical art I've ever come across. It's enabled me to defend in situations I always thought impossible.
So what if I think it's the ultimate? People often have that opinion of the arts they train, BJJ, MMA, karate, TKD, judo, penjak silat, krav maga, etc...

I have unwavering faith in the art I train, and will not be convinced by those that want to say it's not totally bad a**, because they don't like it, understand it, or have never heard of it. Whatever their reasoning for trying to convince me it's not well rounded and a "complete system" of fighting is just bunk.

1. It has weapons in it.
2. It has ground fighting (anti-grappling) in it and takedowns/throws
3. It has pressure points, nerves, chi in it (avoiding grappling and takedowns completely with stance and structure, then learning how to attack your opponent's structure with that same energy)
4. It encompasses the five fighting distances in it and trains you how to engage in each distance.

How can it not be a completely well rounded system? This is why I think it's the ultimate. I don't need to crosstrain, I just need to finish learning THIS art.

And that will never happen, your always learning WT/WC forever. lol! But, that's okay with me. And yes, I'm uppitty still love ya'll though!

See, the above is the same thing that those BJJ nutriders say....that BJJ is the best. Hey, I like my arts as well, but again, I'm not so blind as to say that its unbeatable. If there was an unbeatable art, that art would put all the others out of business.

As far as your list goes...there are weapon disarms, as well as a few weapon forms. There are defenses against grappling attacks. Depending on who you talk to, you may find some that have a more indepth understanding of the ground fighting aspect. PP/nerve strikes can easily be incorporated. Various ranges are addressed in the techs. as well.

IMHO, many arts have what you say. However, I would be very hard pressed to say that WC weapon work is better than a weapon based art such as Arnis and Kali. Those are weapon based arts, and I dont feel that a non weapon based art is going to have that edge over an art that specializes in a particular area.

Like I say, I enjoy very much, the arts that I do. Again, I will admit that there are limitations. BJJ for example lacks in the weapons area as well as when it comes to fighting more than one person. Yet we see those nutriders who swear by it saying that its the ultimate in self defense.

 

[Si-Je]

See, the above is the same thing that those BJJ nutriders say....that BJJ is the best. Hey, I like my arts as well, but again, I'm not so blind as to say that its unbeatable. If there was an unbeatable art, that art would put all the others out of business. .

Who said WC/WT is an "unbeatable art"? That's stretching it a bit, since it always depends on the practitioner that applies it. I think it's one of the best self defense arts out there, yes, but nothing is unfallable.

As far as your list goes...there are weapon disarms, as well as a few weapon forms. There are defenses against grappling attacks. Depending on who you talk to, you may find some that have a more indepth understanding of the ground fighting aspect. PP/nerve strikes can easily be incorporated. Various ranges are addressed in the techs. as well.

IMHO, many arts have what you say. However, I would be very hard pressed to say that WC weapon work is better than a weapon based art such as Arnis and Kali. Those are weapon based arts, and I dont feel that a non weapon based art is going to have that edge over an art that specializes in a particular area. .

I never said it was better than Arnis and kali or other weapon based arts, simply that it incorporates weapons as much as anyother balanced or "well rounded" art. Although, I'm finding that alot of people don't get as far in WC/WT to learn the weapons training. Eitherway, the principles are largely the same. A weapon is an extention of your arm, you use it very similar to how you fight open handed, whatever style.

Like I say, I enjoy very much, the arts that I do. Again, I will admit that there are limitations. BJJ for example lacks in the weapons area as well as when it comes to fighting more than one person. Yet we see those nutriders who swear by it saying that its the ultimate in self defense.

I don't see as many limitations in WC/WT I guess as other people might. I guess the style or "lineage" of what I'm taught pretty much covers most bases. I do think it's a superior form of self-defense than some other arts, but again, to call it the "ultimate" would be based on preference and speculation. I would call upon WC/WT before anything else I've EVER trained, any other style I've ever worked with in the past.

For a test of self defense technique do this: take any technique you learn from anywhere anystyle and try to execute it while standing in a door frame, or lying down on the floor in a narrow door frame. Can it be done in that kind of position? With only that much space to work with? If it can't, I wouldn't train it as much. Chunk it.

You get attacked for real that's about all the space you may have, and that "what if" senario is better to be prepared for and made comfortable than not, and finding yourself in a "tight spot" just to Only Then find out that your grappling won't work in the hallway to your apartment, or your spinning kick doesn't work between two parked cars, or that you have a hard time lunging deep in the isle of a bus. Bad times to find that out. Self defense isn't for the mats, the ring, or the dojo, it should be designed what it's intended to be used for. The street.

 

[Si-Je]

Here is that fight:

If you look close, you will see Kimo tap and yes, it seems that the arm was locked.


Personally, the Gracies have the 'anywhere, anyone, anyplace' motto, so I don't know why they just didn't hold the fight at the Gracie Academy? Royce comes off as the best in the world, as does Emin, so both should just stop making excuses and just fight.

Been a long time since I saw that fight. Barely saw him tap. Didn't they fight again? oh, well.

As for fighting at the Gracie's Academy, I sure wouldn't fall for that one. lol! Neutral ground is a MUST, you don't fight anyone on their "turf" unless your a bully, crazy, or just .... There are legal issues to consider too, what if you beat Gracie and he sued you for disturbing his place of business? In Texas that's really serious offense, don't know about other states, but it doesn't seem like a good idea. What if you beat him and his other students and black belts decided to "bano" (gang jump) you right there who's to stop that from happening?

What if we offered the same challenge to BJJ stylists to come to our school and match fight? Would they? I think you'd have the same stalemate, one person saying "no, come to me", the other, "no, YOU come over here." lol!
Neutral ground is the best. A tourney, or such, this would make it fair to all involved.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Wow very informative...you have been a busy bee Si-Je

When did Royce Gracie beat Kimbo Slice? They have never fought. (not that I've ever heard)
Last time I saw Royce fight he got beaten by an American collegic wrestler (Matt Hughes), and he pounded his head in the mat from behind. inchworm style.

Hubbie curls 100lbs both arms. He curls me with both arms. Sure, pin his other hand with my legs, which my legs are as big as his arm that I'm trying to pin. Sounds like an arm wrestling match to me, not very effecient.
(again, why would one even try to do this?! It's a mystery to me. I'd much rather have him on his side and my knees in his ribs and neck with his arm wrapped leaving him only one way to roll,.. and that will dislocate his shoulder or break his own elbow. That's JJJ style.)

Or even better, have my knee in his groin/gut, and the other knee in his throat and be chainpunching his brains out. Ryding him like a boogie board where ever he trys to roll to, constantly chain punching his head, ribs, throat, stomach, groin, whatever. That's anti-grappling style.

Royces weight, height, and strength ratio is nothing comparied to the contrast between someone of my size against someone as tall, heavy, and strong as hubbie.
You tell a small man, my size and weight, and have them do this on another man hubbies size and weight, then I'll consider these techniques.

Even with the added leverage you use in Japanese Ju-Jitsu you still need a ton of strength to pull off those techniques against larger stronger opponents. That's when I used to lift weights to get stronger for JJJ class. Well, I'm not 18 anymore, and don't want to have to be doing that. It's a waste of time, unless you just like spending hours in the gym. And I HATE the gym, it's a meat market. lol! When I want to work out, I want to be left alone. so anyways....

What was the question again? lol.
Oh, and yes, they didn't have weight classes or gloves in the early days of UFC. That's when it was fun. But, that's when the JJJ sensi elbowed some poor guy in the head until he crushed in the entire side of his face. Very horrible. But, that's what I was taught, so oh well.

I never saw Gracie fight a JJJ fighter, WT/WC fighter, a Judo fighter (he may have, just haven't see that one yet), or a Suai Jaou fighter (chinese wrestling, can't spell it. ack.) etc..
there are certian stylist that he chooses not to fight. Sure, he fought a couple of kung fu stylists, but that doesn't cover ALL kung fu, and it doesn't prove BJJ against kung fu. Ever see the movie fearless with Jet Li, true story about a real wu shu founder, and he fought fighters for years before he came out on top as the best kung fu. That's because there's sooooo many.

 

[Si-Je]

oooh, oh! He hasn't fought Aikido, Krav Maga, or Silat either. lol!

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Hell have just do some challenging...

oooh, oh! He hasn't fought Aikido, Krav Maga, or Silat either. lol!