How to defeat a Wrestler

[Si-Je]

Bui Gee form video with Mrs. Wagner. She's awesome! Commercial for Nike.

This is the advanced stuff. I've barely just started learn some of this. Not even the whole form yet. And the Chi your learning the whole time your training WC, but alot of the time you don't know it.

 

[Si-Je]

Out of curiosity, what is your husbands grappling background? Has he done any ground work or does he strictly stick with WC antigrappling?

Just Judo, and Recon training stuff. He dislikes grappling, and BJJ very much. To the point it makes him mad sometimes.
When I first started training and I told him I did Ju-Jitsu, he thought it was BJJ and well, he's almost predjuced against it. It took me over a year to be able to show him the blaringly apparent differences in the two arts!

I'm not as against grappling and BJJ as he, but I'm not into it or a fan of it.
I think his distaste for it comes from the knowledge that Army guys in Iraq have been using it, and coming back with broken legs, hips, backs and such due to the fact their trying to use it on concrete, stairs, hallways, and other such urban warfare environments, with full battle gear on, a 100lb. pack, riffle, and all the other gear getting in the way.
But that's fodder for another thread. Just explaining why he hates it so much.

Oh, a little tip on arm bars and such: manipulate the wrist as well, twisting up the arm, and you'll have more control over a stronger attacker. Plus, you'll break the wrist, elbow, and dislocate the shoulder with the same twisting and "barring" motion. And it's much harder to get out of for your opponent. Usually, they break their own arm.

P.S. sorry for the multiple posts. I don't know how to quote multiple people in one post response.

 

[MJS]

Just Judo, and Recon training stuff. He dislikes grappling, and BJJ very much. To the point it makes him mad sometimes.
When I first started training and I told him I did Ju-Jitsu, he thought it was BJJ and well, he's almost predjuced against it. It took me over a year to be able to show him the blaringly apparent differences in the two arts!

I'm not as against grappling and BJJ as he, but I'm not into it or a fan of it.
I think his distaste for it comes from the knowledge that Army guys in Iraq have been using it, and coming back with broken legs, hips, backs and such due to the fact their trying to use it on concrete, stairs, hallways, and other such urban warfare environments, with full battle gear on, a 100lb. pack, riffle, and all the other gear getting in the way.
But that's fodder for another thread. Just explaining why he hates it so much.

Oh, a little tip on arm bars and such: manipulate the wrist as well, twisting up the arm, and you'll have more control over a stronger attacker. Plus, you'll break the wrist, elbow, and dislocate the shoulder with the same twisting and "barring" motion. And it's much harder to get out of for your opponent. Usually, they break their own arm.

Thanks for getting back to me. Interestingly enough, I've heard many people defend the use of MMA/BJJ because the Military uses it. My usual reply is how or why would someone want to roll or try to roll wearing all that stuff?? I never get an answer. LOL.

P.S. sorry for the multiple posts. I don't know how to quote multiple people in one post response.

No problem. If you look at the bottom of each post, you should see buttons that say Thanks and Quote. Right next to the quote button is the multi quote feature. So, if I wanted to quote you and mook jong man, I'd click the multi quote button on each of your posts, then click the post reply button. Both posts should appear. I hope that helps.

Mike

 

[Si-Je]

Marines learn something totally different. And Force Recon is a totally different training program than the regular marines.

But special forces in all branches learn more than the regular enlisted guys.

But, for civilians wanting to learn what SF guys learn is really impractical for the civiy lifestyle. Their techniques are augmented to the needs of special forces, i.e. quick kill, working with the gear carried, firearms usagae, working with a team and such. We're just not going to have much use in daily life for that kind of training.
We have a situation where largely in a self-defense senario you'll be all alone against an attacker, or multiple attackers, unarmed (most likely), and the use of extreme force would hold harsh legal issues. (Unless your in Texas! lol!)

But either way, the need to stay off the ground for extended periods of time is equally critical.

 

[jarrod]

Oh let me clarify my Statement. What I mean about how do you defeat a Wrestler is from standing up. With out being taking to the ground. So from striking standing Joint locks and standing throws and takedowns. How do you defeat a Ground fighter who trying to wrestle you an take you down to ground?

ah, i misunderstood your origional post then. you've already received some good tips on this from other posters. all the best, if i were any closer to st. lou i would look you up. if you're ever in the KC area look me up, it would be fun to train & work with a good WC guy.

Thanks for getting back to me. Interestingly enough, I've heard many people defend the use of MMA/BJJ because the Military uses it. My usual reply is how or why would someone want to roll or try to roll wearing all that stuff?? I never get an answer. LOL.

Mike

this is a good example of what's good for the goose not being so good for the gander, so to speak. too often people confuse fighting, combat, & self-defense. they are all very different levels of conflict & the same tactics can't be used in them universally.

sambo is a very good example of a grappling style that adapts well to military usage. sure it has it's sport-fighting element, but that it not the whole of the art. for instance, in judo you win the match if you throw your opponent flat on his back. in sambo, a throw only wins the match if you throw your opponent on his back & stay on your feet. the idea is that from there you are stomping his head in with your combat boots.

so i think that's it's a good idea for the army to train mma/bjj since it has a fairly short learning curve, but i would like to see it augmented with more combat oriented skills later. as you mentioned, rolling with an 80lbs+ pack is not really practical.

jf

 

[dungeonworks]

I never saw a Gracie fight a Japanese Ju-Jitsu fighter. Or a Wing Chun fighter.

Royce fought Kazyushi Sakuraba a few times, Rickson made a living fighting them, and Helio started to whole thing fighting Kimura....who later became the name of a shoulder lock that Kimura used to break Helio Gracie's. Many of the Gracies fought in Japanese promotions in protest to the UFC's rule changes back in 2000, which is why you likely haven't seen them.

Technically speaking, BJJ and JJJ are the same techniques. BJJ focuses on a different technique application and has more of a focus on chokes, elbows, knees, and shoulders. JJJ seems to favor wrist locks and the standing grappling game(not to say they don't have a ground game). Wristlocks are virtually useless in sport with heavily taped hands and wrists....although there is a Japanese fighter/JJJ named Shinya Aoki. If you get the chance, he is something to watch if you enjoy JJJ.

 

[jarrod]

Royce fought Kazyushi Sakuraba a few times, Rickson made a living fighting them, and Helio started to whole thing fighting Kimura....who later became the name of a shoulder lock that Kimura used to break Helio Gracie's. Many of the Gracies fought in Japanese promotions in protest to the UFC's rule changes back in 2000, which is why you likely haven't seen them.

Technically speaking, BJJ and JJJ are the same techniques. BJJ focuses on a different technique application and has more of a focus on chokes, elbows, knees, and shoulders. JJJ seems to favor wrist locks and the standing grappling game(not to say they don't have a ground game). Wristlocks are virtually useless in sport with heavily taped hands and wrists....although there is a Japanese fighter/JJJ named Shinya Aoki. If you get the chance, he is something to watch if you enjoy JJJ.

for the record though, sakuraba is primarily a catch wrestler. he trained under billy robinson. i believe aoki has a background in catch as well, but i could be mistaken.

i agree with you for the most part in your analysis of bjj/jjj though. i have studied two different japanese/american hybrid styles, & the two major differences i've noticed are the emphasis on the guard in bjj, & the length of time it takes to promote. a good jjj school should place the same emphasis on leverage & technique as a bjj school however. strength & conditioning should assist in any competitive martial art, but shouldn't be a substitute for technique.

jf

 

[dungeonworks]

The technique when kicking in the knee is different in WC than in kickboxing.
the elbow technique is different in WC than in kickboxing.
You can't look at a strike from another art, and judge that just because a guy can "take it" from a kickboxer or other that they'll have the same reaction to technique from a completely different art.

I've heel kicked large, tough, and heavily muscled men in the knee and their knee collapses just fine. (I don't kick full force of course but in training full force isn't needed, their body position is still changed like I want it to)
You use a kickboxing/mui tai kick, kicking shin to shin or whatever is completly different energy than a WC hook kick or heel kick which will bring an opponent down/collapse the knee whether or not you break it. (which is more highly likely especially if their big and strong)

How is the energy different in Wing Chun and kickboxing??? Aside the round kicks, many are still linear like in Wing Chun. I like the directness and non telegraphic nature of the Wing Chun kicks, but they are nowheres near as powerfull as they are from a conditioned an well trained kickboxer as I have exerienced on my own body. Same with knees and elbows.

Tae Kwon Do has vuirtually the same thing as the front kick of Wing Chun as did Koeikan and I believe Muay Thai. I've seen many a knees get kicked in person and in MMA fights. It is not as dramatic of a technique as many believe. It is if you hit it at the correct angle with their weight on it (as taught in Wing Chun), but even then (see the recent Brandon Vera vs Kieth Jardine...Vera landed THE Wing Chun front kick!).

 

[Si-Je]

I strongly disagree that BJJ and JJJ use the same techniques. Not Aiki or Goshin Ju-Jitsu (which is even more americanized form of JJJ).

We used alot of "tate dori" standing escapes, i.e. standing chokes, joint locks, throws (where you are still standing always) pressure points, and kicks and strikes.
BJJ does not do these techniques at all.

When we throw an attacker to the ground at the most you go down with them to one knee (two only if one is on their neck and the other on their kidney/rib) You generally keep the arm of the attacker you threw them with and then proceed to break it as soon as they hit the ground. These technques were used much like wringing out a wet rag, the "rag" being the opponent's arm. You twist the wrist, which the elbow in turn gets "twisted" as you apply pressure against the elbow at the same time, ringing out the arm until the shoulder pops out of socket.
From here you can stop at their threshold of pain an risk further fighting by "submitting" them. But we didn't train to submit, we trained to break every joint we got ahold of as fast as possible.
In class we were controlled, of course. But, practiceing Kotogashi (wrist throw) you had to jump over your own arm (like the stunt men do in Steven Segal movies) to save the wrist from breaking. Later you learn counters without the jump, but you still practice with your uke (partner) by jumping over your arm so they can finish the breaking motion of the wrist throw/break.
Just an example of major difference.

Another ex. the BJJ armbar on the ground, where you put both your legs over the guys chest with their arm between your legs to "break" the elbow over your own pelvis. (I hate that technique! so macho. so difficult strength expended wise, and takes soo much time!)

equivilant JJJ armbar on the ground:
Opponent is on their side/ribs laying on the ground. (usually after being thrown judo style. if you do a shoulder throw and keep hold of their arm when they land you will achieve this position) You drop straight to your knees landing one knee on his rib and the other on the side of his neck. You still have the arm tucked under your armpit from throw. (most times they help you by grabbing you with that arm. Good, makes certian you still have arm.) You brace your forearm thats wrapping their arm against the back of their elbow. That same hand/arm of yours grabbs your other bicep. Your free hard extends toward the opponent either with the palm braced against their side or just covering your centerline.
They only have one way to roll over, (away from you, your knees, legs, and feet keep them from rolling over on their back. you never want your opponent on their back. They can still defend.) and that will break their own arm.
Release the arm wrap (or if they wiggle free) to manipulate the wrist and elbow in a figure 4 position for bigger dudes. Big tip though: pull wrist up toward you as you push the elbow down towards them. This WILL absolutely destroy the arm in one motion, breaking the wrist, elbow, and dislocating the shoulder.
BJJ doesn't do anything like this. Not that I've EVER seen or heard of.

 

[Si-Je]

Tae Kwon Do has vuirtually the same thing as the front kick of Wing Chun as did Koeikan and I believe Muay Thai. I've seen many a knees get kicked in person and in MMA fights. It is not as dramatic of a technique as many believe. It is if you hit it at the correct angle with their weight on it (as taught in Wing Chun), but even then (see the recent Brandon Vera vs Kieth Jardine...Vera landed THE Wing Chun front kick!).

no sweetie. not the same. tae kuan do front snap kick hits with the ball of the foot, or in some systems flat of the bottom of the foot. (but not many)

WC heel kick is, true to it's name, kicking the attacker with the heel of the foot. Toes pointed to the celing, and cocked to the outside of the body, while the heel goes straight down the centerline. Plus, no knee snapping motion like tae kwon do.

These guys that have gone in UFC claiming to be WC/WT are not. I don't know what on Earth kind of style their trying to use in there, but what I've seen is, well nothing. Heard about a guy that recently fought that was supposed to be real WC/WT, but can't remember his name, and when I did rememeber I couldn't find a video on the fight. poop!

 

[jarrod]

I strongly disagree that BJJ and JJJ use the same techniques. Not Aiki or Goshin Ju-Jitsu (which is even more americanized form of JJJ).

We used alot of "tate dori" standing escapes, i.e. standing chokes, joint locks, throws (where you are still standing always) pressure points, and kicks and strikes.
BJJ does not do these techniques at all.

this is not correct. most bjj schools emphasize the sport or mma aspects of the art, but all the techniques you described are included in the art. i believe rorian's lineage still emphasizes these techniques.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN8Y0jfVDqI&feature=related

Another ex. the BJJ armbar on the ground, where you put both your legs over the guys chest with their arm between your legs to "break" the elbow over your own pelvis. (I hate that technique! so macho. so difficult strength expended wise, and takes soo much time!)

this is not the correct way to do juji-gatame/the armbar. your knees should be squeezed together to prevent the elbow from going to your groin/pelvis. your heels should be squeezing towards your butt in order to squeeze your opponent's shoulders together, thereby minimizing his strength. his arm should be close to your chest, so that you are using the muscles in your back rather than just your arms. so done correctly, you are using the muscles of your legs, back, & arms against their solitary arm. i've used this technique repeatedly on guys literally 100lbs larger than me, & i'm not particularly strong for my size.

equivilant JJJ armbar on the ground:
Opponent is on their side/ribs laying on the ground. (usually after being thrown judo style. if you do a shoulder throw and keep hold of their arm when they land you will achieve this position) You drop straight to your knees landing one knee on his rib and the other on the side of his neck. You still have the arm tucked under your armpit from throw. (most times they help you by grabbing you with that arm. Good, makes certian you still have arm.) You brace your forearm thats wrapping their arm against the back of their elbow. That same hand/arm of yours grabbs your other bicep. Your free hard extends toward the opponent either with the palm braced against their side or just covering your centerline.
They only have one way to roll over, (away from you, your knees, legs, and feet keep them from rolling over on their back. you never want your opponent on their back. They can still defend.) and that will break their own arm.
Release the arm wrap (or if they wiggle free) to manipulate the wrist and elbow in a figure 4 position for bigger dudes. Big tip though: pull wrist up toward you as you push the elbow down towards them. This WILL absolutely destroy the arm in one motion, breaking the wrist, elbow, and dislocating the shoulder.
BJJ doesn't do anything like this. Not that I've EVER seen or heard of.

these techniques exist in bjj, largely because bjj is descended directly from jjj.

jf

 

[dungeonworks]

no sweetie. not the same. tae kuan do front snap kick hits with the ball of the foot, or in some systems flat of the bottom of the foot. (but not many)

WC heel kick is, true to it's name, kicking the attacker with the heel of the foot. Toes pointed to the celing, and cocked to the outside of the body, while the heel goes straight down the centerline. Plus, no knee snapping motion like tae kwon do.

These guys that have gone in UFC claiming to be WC/WT are not. I don't know what on Earth kind of style their trying to use in there, but what I've seen is, well nothing. Heard about a guy that recently fought that was supposed to be real WC/WT, but can't remember his name, and when I did rememeber I couldn't find a video on the fight. poop!

I know of Alan Orr and Aaron Baum. They are English I believe. They also train BJJ for their MMA endeavors. On a side note, before he died, Carlson Gracie Jr. was training Wing Chun with Sam Kwok or Sam Chan...can't remember. I believe Rickson does too now, but cannot confirm.

The kick from TKD is not called a heel kick...I forget because TKD was half a lifetime ago for me....but Koeikan is not, and has the same linear kick using the same part of the foot, the heel. We also used it similar to a back kick as well.

 

[dungeonworks]

I strongly disagree that BJJ and JJJ use the same techniques. Not Aiki or Goshin Ju-Jitsu (which is even more americanized form of JJJ).

We used alot of "tate dori" standing escapes, i.e. standing chokes, joint locks, throws (where you are still standing always) pressure points, and kicks and strikes.
BJJ does not do these techniques at all.

When we throw an attacker to the ground at the most you go down with them to one knee (two only if one is on their neck and the other on their kidney/rib) You generally keep the arm of the attacker you threw them with and then proceed to break it as soon as they hit the ground. These technques were used much like wringing out a wet rag, the "rag" being the opponent's arm. You twist the wrist, which the elbow in turn gets "twisted" as you apply pressure against the elbow at the same time, ringing out the arm until the shoulder pops out of socket.
From here you can stop at their threshold of pain an risk further fighting by "submitting" them. But we didn't train to submit, we trained to break every joint we got ahold of as fast as possible.
In class we were controlled, of course. But, practiceing Kotogashi (wrist throw) you had to jump over your own arm (like the stunt men do in Steven Segal movies) to save the wrist from breaking. Later you learn counters without the jump, but you still practice with your uke (partner) by jumping over your arm so they can finish the breaking motion of the wrist throw/break.
Just an example of major difference.

Another ex. the BJJ armbar on the ground, where you put both your legs over the guys chest with their arm between your legs to "break" the elbow over your own pelvis. (I hate that technique! so macho. so difficult strength expended wise, and takes soo much time!)

equivilant JJJ armbar on the ground:
Opponent is on their side/ribs laying on the ground. (usually after being thrown judo style. if you do a shoulder throw and keep hold of their arm when they land you will achieve this position) You drop straight to your knees landing one knee on his rib and the other on the side of his neck. You still have the arm tucked under your armpit from throw. (most times they help you by grabbing you with that arm. Good, makes certian you still have arm.) You brace your forearm thats wrapping their arm against the back of their elbow. That same hand/arm of yours grabbs your other bicep. Your free hard extends toward the opponent either with the palm braced against their side or just covering your centerline.
They only have one way to roll over, (away from you, your knees, legs, and feet keep them from rolling over on their back. you never want your opponent on their back. They can still defend.) and that will break their own arm.
Release the arm wrap (or if they wiggle free) to manipulate the wrist and elbow in a figure 4 position for bigger dudes. Big tip though: pull wrist up toward you as you push the elbow down towards them. This WILL absolutely destroy the arm in one motion, breaking the wrist, elbow, and dislocating the shoulder.
BJJ doesn't do anything like this. Not that I've EVER seen or heard of.

The mechanics are the same, the focus of the application and strategy are different. I should have noted I was speaking of the armbar you mentionedRemember, BJJ is the son of JJJ. Gracie simplified and modified it much as Jigoro Kano did with JJJ. Some would argue that it is Judo, but that is about as fruitful an argument as the Yim Wing Chun story. I guess if we want to get really technical, the Greeks and/or Indians (Asian) invented it all LOL.

Edit: forgot this link http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/history.shtml

 

[jarrod]

The mechanics are the same, the focus of the application and strategy are different. I should have noted I was speaking of the armbar you mentionedRemember, BJJ is the son of JJJ. Gracie simplified and modified it much as Jigoro Kano did with JJJ. Some would argue that it is Judo, but that is about as fruitful an argument as the Yim Wing Chun story. I guess if we want to get really technical, the Greeks and/or Indians (Asian) invented it all LOL.

Edit: forgot this link http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/history.shtml

not so! i strongly dispute the claim that all asian martial arts spread from greece. that may be a topic for another thread though

jf

 

[dungeonworks]

I was meaning grappling, not all martial arts.

 

[jarrod]

i think that it is especially untrue of grappling arts. grappling is a fairly universal aspect of physical culture; all you need are two bodies & a semi-soft place to land.

jf

 

[dungeonworks]

...and a pair of them tight skivies! LOL

 

[Si-Je]

Darlin's!
That video of BJJ standing defenses falls far short of what is taught. Did they just like go to a seminar and add technique to wrestling? I don't mean to be an a**, or too disrespectful, but when BJJ is compared to Goshin in anyway what-so-ever, it gets under my skin.
And here is why.

This is Goshin Ju-Jitsu throws
Beginner to internediate levels:

application of kotogashi off a jab cross punches
and application of ashi nage (foot throw)

ahhhh, memories! The joys of being a limber female uke (the one getting thrown)
you flip to save the joints so your tori (doing the techniques) can finish the full technique
as it would be used in real life. Sensi's love us! We make them look really good! lol!
p.s. this is similar to how I cracked the vertebre in my neck, (Sensi didnt' do it, a fellow brownbelt did stressing that I was about to surpass him in rank) a little gift from Ju-jitsu that I shall cherish always, and effectively keep me out of the ring FOREVER.

makes me hurt to watch it. pressure points and take downs
they blurred out a kill move to the front of the throat in the middle here.
And a wee bit of weapons defense techniques.

really basic tate dori self defense (standing escapes and "takedowns")
This training is why I have a hard time following up with wing chun takedowns so much.
I was trained to back off the opponent when he was down.

Well, that's all I could find on youtube that was similar to what I took in Texas.
My old system substuted the Japanes/kempo striking with really WEAK Wing Chun (but still effective against most other stuff) couldn't find anything on my of federation guys.
Founder took Aiki Ju-jitsu from some guy in Oklahoma, the WC from a guy in Fort Worth, and aparently the Goshin stuff from wherever too. And just mixed them all in his own style. But he's still one of the best martial artists I've ever come across. Dude knew so many arts (most mastered) that he couldn't hardly keep them apart from the other. But all in all, it's one
of the best arts I've ever taken. And much love out to the founder, he's a cool, and pretty good guy!

Aibu-Jitsu-Ryu is another of his federations

 

[jarrod]

proof that it didn't originate in greece! they did it NEKKID!!!

:lol2:

 

[jarrod]

& sweetheart, it gets under my skin when people who know very little about jujitsu tell me what jujitsu is or isn't. especially when evidence of what jujitsu is is presented, then written off.

you seem to have a strong prejudice against grappling. that's fine, it's not for everyone. but i don't think you quite grasp the core principles of jujitsu, brazilian or otherwise, anymore than i have a deep understanding of wing chun.

jf