How many of you believe you will be fighting someone like you?

[still learning]

Hello, On my part time job as a Security Officer....You will start hearing about all the fights and other incidents that happens to our other fellow workers's shift areas.

Last week an employee forgot his name tag and his mother brought it and park in front of the store (fire zone lane mark with yellow strips). I did not know who she was or why she park there. I told her she was in a no parking zone and had to move to a parking area.

He son came up to me with fire in his eyes and said that I give his mother a "bad attitude." ...boy did he want to get into a fight. (because I ask her to move her car from the fire zone)

So I got out of my security truck and told him I will apologize to his mother and mention that his son said I give her a bad attitude? She said NO! and I look him in the eye and I said this sitution could have escalated, and I walk away. ...........things can happen so fast because of mistaken of what really happen..............Aloha

PS. untill you do this type of job...you will never realize how many peope do give you 'BAD ATTITUDES" to you evertime

 

[MJS]

Still Learning,

I think you need to consider the crime statistics more carefully. You keep posting about how common murder is etc. It's not that common and the statistical chances of being a victim vary greatly depending on your location, ethnicity (sorry, the figures do show that), gender, age and from my experience in UK, your own (eg criminal) activities.

Violent crimes are terrible when they happen. But encouraging paranoia, fatelistic or triggger-happy mentalities is not sensible self-defence IMO.

Perhaps I'm not reading it the same as you are, but I took his post, not so much as being paranoid, but simply asking if the people who train are actually going to be able to bring themselves to effectively defend themselves should the situation arise.

Mike

 

[Adept]

Still Learning,

I think you need to consider the crime statistics more carefully. You keep posting about how common murder is etc. It's not that common and the statistical chances of being a victim vary greatly depending on your location, ethnicity (sorry, the figures do show that), gender, age and from my experience in UK, your own (eg criminal) activities.

Violent crimes are terrible when they happen. But encouraging paranoia, fatelistic or triggger-happy mentalities is not sensible self-defence IMO.

The thing is, the chances of actually being involved in any kind of situation where you are likely to use your physical SD is minute. One could make a strong argument that bothering to train for SD at all is a waste of time.

However, all of us here do it anyway, because we don't want to take that chance. And while we're at it, we may as well assume that any SD situation that we get into will be life or death. Theres no downside to training with that assumption, so any differences will be positive, and any surprises will be pleasant ones.

 

[SAVAGE]

Well I dont think you need a "Killers" mindset...you do however need a "survival" mindset and be willing to kill to survive!

That IMHO is what seperates us from the thugs!

 

[evenflow1121]

I wouldnt consider a fight a life or death situation per se, it can be or it can lead to it sure, but not all fights are life threatening. Still, I think there is quite a bit more than paranoia, as a martial artist you are trained to defend yourself, and while you should be smart and avoid situations that are avoidable, some things will just be out of your control.

I think what you were trying to get at is that if you go into a situation looking for a fight you are more than likely to find it, sure I agree with that, if that is what you are saying, but in a situation where you have an individual up in your face or is about to strike you, the last thing on your mind should be how to avoid the conflict, you should be focusing on the fight cause more likely than not, its going to happen.

 

[Cruentus]

I spotted this thread, which poses an interesting question. You can narrow down possabilities, but you can't very well predict the profile of who you might be attacked by any more then you can predict if you will be attacked at all. it is worth saying that most people can manage to get through their lives without having gone through the horrors of assault.

But for all practical purposes, assume that the person or group of persons you face will have the edge on you. Maybe they are faster, stronger, more ruthless, or better armed. Or perhaps they just plain have the initiative. Assume this because the person attacking you most likely is doing so because they believe they have the edge on you. They wouldn't attack you if they didn't think they could win.

Statistical probabilities aside, that is how you should train... as if you will have to someday fight for your life.

There are too many people who have made the mistake of assumption; assuming that they aren't likely to be attacked, or assuming that because they are trained in a martial art that they most likely won't be overtaken by their opponent. These assumptions all come with a price, so if you make them just hope that that death isn't the one who collects the debt.

Paul

 

[beau_safken]

Well sorry but my take given the original title isnt looking like the rest of this thread.

When I read the title I was assuming it was a talk about if you met another copy of yourself (skill set, emotional equivenent, etc) would you be able to fight.

My answer would be if I ever encountered another martial artist I wouldnt know. Some teachers instill a "superiority" complex in their students... Other take the other side of tranquility and understanding to the other extreme. Lets look at it in this manner then. Nothing like a good old fashioned bell curve...forgive my math...im a accountant not a freakin bookworm Working off the bell curve here....so think of the 0-100% on a linear scale not necessarily as in 2% vs 98% being smaller or larger..just different sides of the line. Dig? Spacial thinking time and a little calc to f with ya.

0.00001 - 2.5% will want the fight...They want to test their knowledge and want a fight like a crack addict wants another hit. He will bring it to anything and anyone that looks like a challenge or breathing.

2.51 - 5% will look for the fight...but not seek it. They are waiting for that golden oppritunity to show themselves worthy of praise, but lack the fortitude to take the extra step unless shown the door.

5.001 - 33% will think I wonder if I could do such and such in a real fight situation. I dont want the fight but wouldnt say no if given a chance.

34%-50% feel ok with a fight but know something isnt right about it. Just something to do not necessarily to prove and the like.

50.01-67% feel not so ok with a fight but know they can handle it if need be. Nothing too much to prove but more or less arent looking for any issues to happen.

67.01-95% Arent into a fight at all. I want to play fight and make sure everyone and everything about it is ok before starting. Not actively seeking in any manner...in fact specializes in diffusal tactics.

95.01 - 98.5% DOnt like fighting and it almost makes them sick to the point of nausea. To them a fight is nothing but a complete preversion of martial arts as it should never make it to that point.

98.51 - 100% believe in a complete lack of a fight is the trust salvation in a situation. To not fight is to win completely for both parties.

Given I am coming off a massively tough week and am not in the best of mind...but this sounds pretty good. Just like legos, add a little to the above and help me create a continuim of escalation.

Thanks and lets do this.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31767

 

[Rick Wade]

The thing is, the chances of actually being involved in any kind of situation where you are likely to use your physical SD is minute. One could make a strong argument that bothering to train for SD at all is a waste of time.

Wrong I did and it probably saved my life The guy pulled a knife on me after I said no to his request for money. If he hadn't of run after I snapped his elw I would have kept going until I totally eliminated the problem.

However, all of us here do it anyway, because we don't want to take that chance. And while we're at it, we may as well assume that any SD situation that we get into will be life or death. Theres no downside to training with that assumption, so any differences will be positive, and any surprises will be pleasant ones.

You are absolutely correct after he pulle dthe knife on me it was my intention to give him my wallet and my reactions too over and I was acting without any prior planned moves (spontanious reaction).


V/R

Rick

 

[bushidomartialarts]

we work on that in my studio often (adult classes at any rate).

trouble is we're decent human beings and care about not hurting others. attackers aren't and don't.

there's a lot of research and some good workshops out there on how to turn off that 'decent human' switch and revert to somebody who can fight and no longer care about the other person.

this is why the most dangerous opponent in the world is a caring mother who believes her children are threatened -- she doesn't give damn one about the safety of the attacker at that point. or her own, for that matter, so long as her kids come out okay.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Most of us will never really be in a real fight or nasty situtions. So the number that were mention may seem unreal. This is normal when it doesn't happen to you,your family, or friends.

Kinda like a drunk driver than kills one more person...it doesn't effect us...cause we do not know the persons involved. UNTILL it happens to us? "Yet" look at the number of people die each year? Even car accidents that kills...if we do not know the people so it doesn't effect us?

Life is good when it doesn't happen to you? ..........enjoy yours....Aloha

 

[kickcatcher]

Hello, On my part time job as a Security Officer....You will start hearing about all the fights and other incidents that happens to our other fellow workers's shift areas.

Last week an employee forgot his name tag and his mother brought it and park in front of the store (fire zone lane mark with yellow strips). I did not know who she was or why she park there. I told her she was in a no parking zone and had to move to a parking area.

He son came up to me with fire in his eyes and said that I give his mother a "bad attitude." ...boy did he want to get into a fight. (because I ask her to move her car from the fire zone)

So I got out of my security truck and told him I will apologize to his mother and mention that his son said I give her a bad attitude? She said NO! and I look him in the eye and I said this sitution could have escalated, and I walk away. ...........things can happen so fast because of mistaken of what really happen..............Aloha

PS. untill you do this type of job...you will never realize how many peope do give you 'BAD ATTITUDES" to you evertime

From what you describe you were successful in "self-defence", cool. BUT, you have demonstrated that many self-defence situations do NOT involve people facing "hardened criminals" nor people intent on killing them. It's not all life and death. And added to this your have a compariatively more confrontational work area that the vast majority of people, which increases your chances of being in "self-defence" situations relative to many others. If self preservation was your primary concern in life you wouldn't work in that work area.

I've used my self-defence training both within a work setting and outside. Some of those situations were more frightening than others but if I look back objectively I'd say that none had a very high risk of death, even if I'd failed in my self-defence. In most cases my successful use of self defence conflict-management/fencework/de-esculation/escape/avoidance etc avoided even physical assault - demonstrating that despite those people wanting to assault me, they were not intent on killing me (else I'd be dead by now, lol). I believe this carries over moreso to people who lead less confrontational lives.

 

[MA-Caver]

If I were going to be fighting someone who has the same amount of training, practice, skills, know-how then it would definitely be a draw... this I believe applies to everyone, from Bruce Lee, Ed Parker Sr. from Samantha to Kenpo Tess, to Flatlander and to just about everyone else on MT and beyond.

The one who wants to win it will win, as it has been observed so many times. The fortitude and the will to come out on top, shall. The one who wants it the most. Whether it's for a tournament trophy or for a situation involving life and death and everywhere in between.

In my experience I've been in a number of fights. Lost a few, won a few and the rest were either a draw or interuppted by LEO's or some other authority figure. In retropsect of the ones I lost; I may have probably lost them because of some other reasons than a lack of pure selfish motives like wanting to win. Principals and the need to save face of another that I was fighting. Other losses were attributed of course to the guy resoundingly whupping my ***, no if's ands or buts! Inexperience, fear, or the guy was simply better than me in one way or another. At least (... and thanking God everytime I think about them) I survived these losses and learned from them.
Of the ones that I won, whell, lessee; some of them I won because the other guy didn't want to win it so badly (fear, inexperience, etc.) Others I won because I wanted to resoundingly whip that guys' *** because he deserved it. Others... because it was a life or death situation and dammit I wanted to survive at that particular moment.

If I were going to fight someone like me ... I will say this ... it will be interesting, it will definitely be educational and mostly ... mostly my friends and neighbors ... it will be FUN!

 

[Adept]

you have demonstrated that many self-defence situations do NOT involve people facing "hardened criminals" nor people intent on killing them...

despite those people wanting to assault me, they were not intent on killing me (else I'd be dead by now, lol). I believe this carries over moreso to people who lead less confrontational lives.

Certainly. But what conclusions can we draw from this, and how should we apply them to our training?

I believe we should assume that the next person we encounter in a SD situation is willing and able to kill us. Intent on it, in fact. Now, this doesn't mean you should just put two shots in the COM of anyone who looks at you funny, nor should you be paranoid and never leave the house. But you should at all times be aware that any situation has the potential to escalate to a life or death situation. I think of it like this:

Any time I encounter someone, there are only four possible outcomes.

1 - I live, and he dies.

2 - I die, and he lives.

3 - We both live.

4 - We both die.

I believe it is important to remember that even though the overwhelming majority of encounters will be a #3, there is always the potential for a #2 or #4, and if my training hasn't prepared me for that (as much as reasonably possible) then I will be at a disadvantage. It doesn't hurt to train with those potential situations in mind, but it sure could help.

I tend to liken it to driving a car. The overwhelming majority of times you have an incident while driving will be minor. You jam the brakes on at an intersection, you run a red light, you speed a bit, you hit someones bumper at a parking lot, whatever. But you still wear your seatbelt every time you get into the car, just in case.

 

[MA-Caver]

Adept, it is important yes to be as realistic as possible when confronted with a SD situation. All MA training I believe should incorporate this in to their training regiem. Without it, you have to ask yourself what are we training for? It's not just something nice to know, in this day and age it's becomes almost a necessity.
The world is a wonderful and beautiful place to live. It's also a violent and terrible and ugly place. There for the assumption that this person confronting us wants to do us harm needs to be as clear and without doubt in our minds before we place ourselves into action. This decision making process needs to be done as quickly as possible so that we can proceed without error to the next step in our defense.
A man standing in front of you yelling and ranting may only be just venting his frustration and anger out at/towards you. But he may not actually want to get into it with you. But how do we know for sure? We don't. Thus we need to prepare ourselves and tell ourselves that we are drawing a line (mentally) which if this person crosses it then we act. And then we act according to our training in response to what this person does.
I"ve had a lot of people just run off at the mouth and found that's all they were doing. Still I had that line of where (depending upon the situation) if they cross it then I take it up a notch and respond in a manner that communicates to them they need to stop what they are doing. There are many lines/notches before any physical contact is made on my part. Sometimes the speed varies.
Brain training (along with your physcial MA training) I've said before is essential and should be in proportion (and as realistic) to where you live and the rate of violent crime related to that area you are in. This is one way to avoid becoming a statistic... which you are anyway when someone accosts you on the street.
We've said this many times having that awareness will go a long way to avoiding these confrontations/incidents. Also important to realize that awareness is by no means paranoia.
Yes, I agree because in my experience a majority of said encounters are #3, but they are no by no means less traumatizing, than a death or waking up in a hospital severely injured. Having that preparedness will help minimize the effects, a support group afterwards (friends/family) will help us deal with it.
The mind is a powerful weapon. More so than the foot or the hand or a gun. You got one, excercise it and use it.

 

[kickcatcher]

Adept, there's nothing to stop people learning and applying awareness, deesculation, avoidance etc etc without the need to assume that the next incounter will involve someone willing to murder you.

I believe people have to entrain a scalable response which allows the application of robust reasonable force as required and is tailored to their lifestyle and the nature of risks it is likely to present.

Over playing how dangerous the world is does not help us in this regard, unless you market your MA on ignorant paranoia, which I guess some do.

The internet is full of big talkers who go on about how if someone "invades" their home they'll shoot them etc. They cite how dangerous the world is as a justification etc. I think it's mostly talk. Even in war most soldiers shoot to miss (1950s US army studies, forget the exact statistics). Maybe these big talkers have weapons fetishes and actually dream that someone might give them an excuse to legally justify their hobby by shooting someone.

 

[Brother John]

That all sounds a bit melodramtaic to me. Most self-defence situations are unlikely to include someone trying to kill you. I'd be interested to hear if there are any credible statistics which show whether assaults are mostly caused by "hardened criminals". Obviously it depends on the nature of the assault, but you get my gist.

From my research (limited, not perfect) MOST hand to hand (not involving a weapon of anykind) involve people that know each other. (not including domestic violence) So unless you know and hang out with the hardened criminal types.... your chances of being attacked by a hardened criminal type is lower than you think. BUT: The WORST attacks, and most weapon attacks, ARE from stranger to stranger....and most often are a side-bar to another crime.
So in the end, I'd rather be prepared for the worst of the worst..
It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

Your Brother
John

 

[punisher73]

Hello, All the figures is of the USA. Go down to any police station and ask how many people get into fights in the neighorhood.

Please research those numbers in may vary from enforement agenies.

You will not hear of many daily indidents in your town/cities...because they happen so routinely and do not make the news anymore.

If you have a police officer friends talk to them.

I will chip in since I work in the LE field. Every place is different so I can give you some generalizations based on my area.

1) Most fights are ego driven. It is the bar fight where alcohol is involved and it is over something stupid.

2) Most assaults w/ a weapon are done by people who know each other. It's usually not stranger vs. stranger

3) Most personal crimes are preventable if you take steps ahead of time by knowing where you are going and what type of area that is and making sure you are not alone or in a situation where something could happen. Why walk out to your car by yourself at the mall when it is dark? Have a security guard escort you, that is what they are payed for.

4) If you live in a high crime area then you will greatly increase your risk of being the victim of a crime. I know that sounds stupid, but the criminals in this area don't stray far from where they live to commit their crimes. If you are on vacation, find out ahead of time what places are well traveled and safer and what areas are to be avoided.

5) Don't go to places where you know there is a high risk of a fight. If you are going to go to a bar, know the place well and what type of people usually go there. There are certain bars and hang outs where fights happen all the time, common sense says stay away from them. I had a student complain one time that "everytime I go to this bar someone tries to pick a fight with me, what can I do?" DUHHH!!!! Stop going to that bar.

Students of self-defense really need to examine themselves and find out how many of their choices are driven by good safety awareness and how much is driven by their ego. "I shouldn't have to leave...", "I have just as much of a right...." etc. etc.

 

[elder999]

paranoia, which I guess some do.

The internet is full of big talkers who go on about how if someone "invades" their home they'll shoot them etc. They cite how dangerous the world is as a justification etc. I think it's mostly talk. Even in war most soldiers shoot to miss (1950s US army studies, forget the exact statistics). Maybe these big talkers have weapons fetishes and actually dream that someone might give them an excuse to legally justify their hobby by shooting someone.

Nope, no weapons fetish, and here in the U.S. I don't need an excuse to "justify my hobby."-it is legal-in fact, it's my right to bear arms. Having deployed firearms, both at home and under other circumstances, I can say that I'm glad I've never had to shoot another person, but I would: if someone invades my home (and, quotes notwithstanding, if someone breaks into my home and I'n there, that's what they're doing) I will shoot them rather than talk, de-escalate, reasess, or anything else, and if it turns out to be some drunken stupid teenager, then I will have to live with the regret that maybe I could have done those things, but I will be alive.