Marital arts? ..and learning to fight back NOT the same thing?

[punisher73]

Sounds to me like you just need to find a school that teaches more application rather than material review for a belt test. I find that MA ar actually quite useful for self defense. The one thing that cracks me up though is how everyone seems to make it to be that some guy in a Alley or a few people in a alley are going to have specialized training. HAHA what are the chances of you running into a Pro boxer, or pro MMA fighter, or any kind of a pro in a situation like that. Probably 98% of the general population of the world have no formal training whatsoever. They are simply brawlers. SO if you keep a good head on your shoulders and don't sleep during your training, you will already have an advantage. Stop thinking the what if's............

What if he is a ninja?
What if he is able to bench 400 pounds ?
What if ...... blah blah blah.

Most people don't even knwo the right way to throw a punch, much less block one.

I agree. I see the same type of propaganda in the RBSD (which do have a great deal to offer) styles. It seems like EVERY fight has either multiple opponents, weapons, or some huge expert fighter. I always wonder where these guys hang out, as part of self-defense is knowing where to go and not to go, especially in an unfamiliar place (ie: vacation). Most fights are NOT criminal attacks where you are suddenly jumped out of nowhere (yes, they do happen though). They are usually fights over ego, over a perceived slight and usually alcohol is involved for at least one of the participants.

I think we should train for worst case scenarios, but at the same time look at your environment and what you are most likely to encounter.

 

[kidswarrior]

No decent schools in the birthplace of Kenpo? Not bloody likely.

I think that was tongue in cheek.

 

[allenjp]

I agree. I see the same type of propaganda in the RBSD (which do have a great deal to offer) styles. It seems like EVERY fight has either multiple opponents, weapons, or some huge expert fighter. I always wonder where these guys hang out, as part of self-defense is knowing where to go and not to go, especially in an unfamiliar place (ie: vacation). Most fights are NOT criminal attacks where you are suddenly jumped out of nowhere (yes, they do happen though). They are usually fights over ego, over a perceived slight and usually alcohol is involved for at least one of the participants.

I think we should train for worst case scenarios, but at the same time look at your environment and what you are most likely to encounter.

I have often thought of this myself...that is why I have always thought I would not fight for ego or for any other reason except fear for my safety, or that of someone else who I thought it worth defending. However really one must realize that there may be situations in which it is impossible or impractical to escape that guy who feels you slighted him by looking at his girlfriend, or spilling coke on his shoes, or some other silly thing he thinks is reason enough to "teach you a lesson", you just have to fight them. And in this case, you're right. Most people who will attack you for reasons as stupid as these aren't going to be expert fighters. And one should be aware of the difference.

Never discount thought that there are people out there who are great trained or natural fighters who for some reason feel it necessary to "display" their skills on a regular basis, and are just looking to hurt people. One should also be prepared for that.

One other thing about some of the OP's posts, that I have tried to say time and again. If you feel that techniques that aren't used in free full contact sparring against fully resistant opponents can't be effective in a real fight, IMHO you are wrong. There are many, many techniques that are simply too DANGEROUS to practice at full speed in free sparring, because they are intended to seriously injure, maim, or even kill your opponent. That is why many disciplines, and individual schools feel that free sparring can lead to a fighter developing bad habits. In the stress of a real fight, concious thought for many people goes right out the window, and they revert back to what they most often do in practice, and if they practice too much in sparring, that will be non lethal or non injurious techniques, which may be just what you need to employ in a serious situation to quickly put an opponent out of comission and save your life.

My advice is not to discount a dojo (or dojang, gym, studio, or whatever) nor a particular discipline because they don't do much sparring.

As for the physical conditioning part, I agree that that is a too often overlooked part of MA training. Currently I train BJJ, so I don't have to worry about looking for outside conditioning programs, because if I can last for a twenty minute grappling match, I can outlast most streetfighters or muggers without a problem. But if you happen to train at a school which doesn't stress physical conditioning as part of their program, you can always do that part on your own.

 

[JBrainard]

Martial artist do very little in this department of boxing skills,,bob,weave,taking the punches and the endurance...

My instructor has been incorporating more and more boxing into our Arnis training, and I can really feel the difference in the intensity of our training. I think it's something that any striking based MA for self defense should put some focus into.
Just my two cents.

 

[Brian S]

I can't out box a boxer. Why would i want to try? But, I can out fight a boxer. Karate gives me many more skill sets than just boxing.
I do agree with the aliveness in training.

 

[sgtmac_46]

The advantage that many 'street fighters' have over a 'trained martial artist' is that the mindset, the willingness to hurt someone else and do it FIRST, without regard for your own safety......vastly more often than not trumps technical skill in the street. That's why boxers and other combat sport fighters are such good 'street fighters'......they really have no compunction about hurting someone, and doing it first......they do it for a living.

There's something to be said about harnessing the mentality that you will destroy another human being under certain circumstances without regard for your own safety. Those who think 'I will simply do what I need to in order to keep from getting hurt' are fine in most minor circumstances (drunken belligerent brother-in-law, aggressive drunken panhandler, etc.) but there is a POINT at which that thinking is inadequate and something more PRIMAL is called for.

I like to envision it as if part of you is a vicious, wild-animal that wants to destroy.....that part has to be kept on a short lease, as he is not fit for polite society. But there are occasions when it's appropriate to unleash that animal and set him loose to destroy! Most people spend their entire lives trying to pretend that beast does not exist, so they do not learn to harness it. But to a person interested in surviving the primal thing we know as 'physical conflict' it is essential to train that beast on how (and when) to destroy.

Because you can dress up physical conflict in all the trappings you want, paint it pink and give it a cute name.....but at the end of the day it's STILL one monkey trying to bash another monkey's BRAINS out with his bare hands, teeth, stick, knife, etc!

 

[sgtmac_46]

My instructor has been incorporating more and more boxing into our Arnis training, and I can really feel the difference in the intensity of our training. I think it's something that any striking based MA for self defense should put some focus into.
Just my two cents.

The thing about the FMA's for combat is that they never developed a formal mindset other than 'that which is necessary to overcome the other'.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My instructor has been incorporating more and more boxing into our Arnis training, and I can really feel the difference in the intensity of our training. I think it's something that any striking based MA for self defense should put some focus into.
Just my two cents.

Nothing against boxing it is great training and boxers can generally hit very hard but my Xingyiquan Sifu tried incorporating Boxing into Xingyiquan in application and it was just so far off the mark it was intolerable but then Xingyiquan's approach to fighting is quite different from boxing as are many CMA styles views of fighting.

I will admit it was a lot of fun at first (one maybe two classes) but after that it was just became unbearably wrong rather fast from a Xingyiquan perspective.

 

[JBrainard]

The thing about the FMA's for combat is that they never developed a formal mindset other than 'that which is necessary to overcome the other'.

Isn't that what self defense is all about?

 

[Sukerkin]

Mac raises an interesting point in his post above.

It is very important to recognise what is in our own natures and as part of our training learn to use our traits as best we can.

In my young years, as I've confessed before here at MT, I had a very aggressive streak. Solving disagreeents 'with my fists' was a first port of call rather than a last resort .

Thankfully, my father managed, by dint of strict discipline, to get that out of me by the time I reached Secondary School. Indeed, he did so well that I was utterly averse to using violence to settle anything, even if self defence was warranted i.e. I was reflexively conditioned not to fight, no matter what the provocation.

When I started training in martial arts tho', I recognised that that part of me was still actually 'in there' and it was as if the training gave it 'permission' to come back out - it was the bit of my nature that loved to spar and would drive on in these mock fights, even if I was taking a kicking.

I knew I had to watch it as that aggression had to be under my control, rather than the other way around. Which is part of the point that Mac was making I think.

So, to cut a long story short (ish ) in all the years I've been around and the odd potentially unpleasant encounter I have had, that aggressive streak has never been allowed out for 'real'. Until that one time I made a couple of mistakes of judgement and ended up cornered in an alley. I don't remember consciously deciding that this situation warranted a high degree of violence but Mac's analogy of 'letting the primitive off the leash' works very well for describing the change.

I prefer to think of it as letting that primitive have a little more leash tho', rather than letting go of all control. Otherwise I dread to think what would've happened if I hadn't retained enough conscious supervisory oversight to figure I'd done enough to escape and legged it.

 

[Sukerkin]

Isn't that what self defense is all about?

I quite agree. I do think tho' that a violent conclusion means a degree of failure to negotiate a better way of ending matters.

I know that sometimes there really is no other choice, as in my encounter where I genuinely, deep down, feared for my life. But it still bothers me that I couldn't find a way out that didn't involve breaking integral parts of other humans.

 

[allenjp]

Sukerkin,

In your last post I assume you are referring to the same encounter that you mentioned earlier when it was you against three others?

If so, I wanted to commend you for having the control to run once you gained the upper hand. Running is always a great option, as long as it is possible, and practical in the particular situation.

 

[chinto]

By Ruling of the Supreme Court of the United States of America.. in the USA the police have the DUTY TO investigate a crime once it has happened.. and arrest any one indicted, and testify to the evidence in the case.. NOT PROTECT THE PUBLIC OR INDIVIDUAL!!! that is a ruling that has been reconfirmed several times in the last century!!!! Also the fact that self defense is the individual persons problem and duty in the same rulings!!! keep that in mind in the US !! ( I live in the USA and am Proud to be a citizen of the USA)

 

[sgtmac_46]

Isn't that what self defense is all about?

It should be....unfortunately as is often happens, sometimes dogma gets in the way of the practical. We often lose sight of our original goals in the details of pursuing them if you get my meaning. It helps to remind ourselves from time to time what our original purpose was.

 

[MJS]

Sounds to me like you just need to find a school that teaches more application rather than material review for a belt test. I find that MA ar actually quite useful for self defense. The one thing that cracks me up though is how everyone seems to make it to be that some guy in a Alley or a few people in a alley are going to have specialized training. HAHA what are the chances of you running into a Pro boxer, or pro MMA fighter, or any kind of a pro in a situation like that. Probably 98% of the general population of the world have no formal training whatsoever. They are simply brawlers. SO if you keep a good head on your shoulders and don't sleep during your training, you will already have an advantage. Stop thinking the what if's............

What if he is a ninja?
What if he is able to bench 400 pounds ?
What if ...... blah blah blah.

Most people don't even knwo the right way to throw a punch, much less block one.

You know, I notice the same thing. I highly doubt the punk who is looking to rob me of my cell phone, cash and watch is a 10 time world class BJJ champ.

 

[kidswarrior]

You know, I notice the same thing. I highly doubt the punk who is looking to rob me of my cell phone, cash and watch is a 10 time world class BJJ champ.

:lol: So true. I interact with guys like this weekly, often as older siblings of my students. They mostly count on our fear of them to start the momentum of the crime going their direction. But if we have/show no fear of them then they're just another untrained, undisciplined fighter looking for an easy victim

 

[MJS]

I have often thought of this myself...that is why I have always thought I would not fight for ego or for any other reason except fear for my safety, or that of someone else who I thought it worth defending. However really one must realize that there may be situations in which it is impossible or impractical to escape that guy who feels you slighted him by looking at his girlfriend, or spilling coke on his shoes, or some other silly thing he thinks is reason enough to "teach you a lesson", you just have to fight them. And in this case, you're right. Most people who will attack you for reasons as stupid as these aren't going to be expert fighters. And one should be aware of the difference.

Good points!

Never discount thought that there are people out there who are great trained or natural fighters who for some reason feel it necessary to "display" their skills on a regular basis, and are just looking to hurt people. One should also be prepared for that.

Agreed. While the odds of someone being in the same class as Royce or Chuck, I do feel that it is a good idea to be as prepared as possible. Have some solid weapon work under your belt so in the event someone pulls a blade on you, your odds of survival may be increased. Have some grappling under your belt, so in the event you get taken down, fall down or whatever, and this person continues the attack, you'll stand a better chance of defending and getting back to your feet.

One other thing about some of the OP's posts, that I have tried to say time and again. If you feel that techniques that aren't used in free full contact sparring against fully resistant opponents can't be effective in a real fight, IMHO you are wrong. There are many, many techniques that are simply too DANGEROUS to practice at full speed in free sparring, because they are intended to seriously injure, maim, or even kill your opponent. That is why many disciplines, and individual schools feel that free sparring can lead to a fighter developing bad habits. In the stress of a real fight, concious thought for many people goes right out the window, and they revert back to what they most often do in practice, and if they practice too much in sparring, that will be non lethal or non injurious techniques, which may be just what you need to employ in a serious situation to quickly put an opponent out of comission and save your life.

My advice is not to discount a dojo (or dojang, gym, studio, or whatever) nor a particular discipline because they don't do much sparring.

More good points. In debates with 'certain groups' of people, I've said many times, that I'm not going to throw away an eye jab, because a) you dont see it in the ring, b) because its a low percentage move or c) because Rickson didn't do it in his fights. If they don't want to do it, if they can't do it or if they can't train it properly, fine...don't do it, but like I said, I'm going to keep working it.

As for the physical conditioning part, I agree that that is a too often overlooked part of MA training. Currently I train BJJ, so I don't have to worry about looking for outside conditioning programs, because if I can last for a twenty minute grappling match, I can outlast most streetfighters or muggers without a problem. But if you happen to train at a school which doesn't stress physical conditioning as part of their program, you can always do that part on your own.

True.

 

[kwaichang]

Well for me, awareness and avoidance work well. I can always fall back on 'armed citizen' if circumstances dictate. After all, sometimes you just don't feel like getting dirty.:uhyeah: