How do you defend against this? (Knife Attack)

[Dolev]

Well, you need to be careful. If it isn't obvious from what you say, or if there is even a chance you could be misunderstood, you should rephrase or use emoticons, or both. We do that here often. It lessens the chances of making us look foolish.

A smart man learns from a fools mistake, and in this case i'm the fool who learns from a smart man. Thanks for the tip!

 

[oftheherd1]

I'll edit this post later with a detailed explanation, getting stabbed in the palm was a joke, theoretically it's possible but you're just sacrificing a limb for nothing.
About the "there is no bad art that is given from masters etc." I agree, there are bad fighters.
About hapkido, it sounds intresting i'll check it out, but im more inclined to take kung fu (Possibly sanda) or muay thai

Yeah, and bad teachers unfortunately. That is why you should be sure of the school you pick. You want to find a good teacher, which means you should also find good students. Both the teacher and the students will then help you learn and get to the point where you can also be a good student-teacher. You need to find a martial art that you like, and spend the time and effort it takes to be proficient at it. Keep in mind that if you have it narrowed down to two schools, and the art you think you want more doesn't have a good teacher, you might want to go for the better teacher. But in the end, it is you life and your choice to be happiest with.

 

[oftheherd1]

A smart man learns from a fools mistake, and in this case i'm the fool who learns from a smart man. Thanks for the tip!

You are welcome for the tip.

But don't consider me a smart man. I always tell people it isn't so bad to make a mistake, if you learn from it. And I have learned a lot. :uhyeah:

If you are learning anything from me, it is only what I have been taught by others, and from realizing and learning from a mistake.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Geezer, great job, you may have saved that kid's life. IMO, many young Martial artist need that.

There certainately aren't any 'definite' or 'bullet proof' options in any street fight and espicially not in a knife fight, but I think an importatn distnction that I isn't mention as often as it should is that there are options. Some of which even keep you from getting stabbed and/or killed. The frusturating thing I had surfing the web for good knife defence was that instructors (who were teaching adults) would either do the latter two things in the OP or they'd show a realistic knife attack and then wouldn't even show basic defence. And being that I was searching for answers, the lack of such upset me, hence the thread.

 

[Dolev]

Lets all go buy/make medieval armor and wear it under our clothes! :jediduel:
At the least lets wear gauntlets to parry the knife without losing a limb.

 

[Cirdan]

Lets all go buy/make medieval armor and wear it under our clothes! :jediduel:
At the least lets wear gauntlets to parry the knife without losing a limb.

Or we could live happy lives without giving in to paranoia. This guy would agree with you however:

 

[Dolev]

I'm not worried of getting stabbed, i live in a closed neighborhood. You need a card to enter, and answer 3 questions. At one point they just remember your face, they do this because the neighborhood is home to ambassadors, specifically the American embassy. My school is inside the neighborhood and I don't go to the bad parts of town. Furthermore, I don't do anything to provoke people, the worst thing that could happen is i get mugged but the locals are afraid of doing so because of the immense repercussions of mugging; even more so murdering. Locals are very kind

 

[WingChunIan]

A few general replies to this thread:

Mearly striking the attacker will not stop the attack, proper control of the weapon is mandatory. Don't try anything untill you have control of that knife.

It will if it A) results in a knockout - unconcious people don't try to stab or cut you, B) smashes the throat - people who can't breathe are normally too preoccupied to continue the attack, C) disorients sufficiently to require the attackers immediate attention - striking the ear for example D) causes the opponent to fall forwards towards the floor / wall - human reactions are to put our hands out to break our fall not to continue attacking.
The most important point in any response is to get off of the line of the original attack

 

[WingChunIan]

Reading though these posts reminds me of the time I was at a family gathering and everybody was talking about how proud they were of my step-brother's son who was then a 12-year-old black belt. He mentioned to me that he had learned to defend against knife attacks. I took him aside and told him to never mess with a guy armed with a knife. Run, hide, grab something and throw it, whatever, but understand that fighting back is the absolute last resort, and that survival is the best you can hope for. Even if you are a five foot tall 12-year-old blackbelt!

Needless to say he didn't believe me. I mean after all he had the black belt right? And who was I? His middle-aged step-uncle who does some kinda MA that doesn't even have belts! So to make the point, I grabbed a harmless kitchen spatula and asked him if he thought he could defend against it if it were a knife. He said sure. So I charged him, knocked him to the floor and "stabbed" him with the spatula about twenty times. Boy, did his eyes get big. My wife went all ballistic on me for "beating up on a little kid". But my step brother, the boy's father, understood perfectly ...and so did the kid. Maybe the lesson will keep him from doing something stupid down the road.

As to "Dolev", I understand you want a reasonable and reliable empty-handed knife-defense that you can count on. The bad news (as has already been stated) is that such a defense doesn't exist. There are some approaches that are just unrealistic and really stupid, and others that are better. Some of each have been discussed here. The better ones are very simple, direct, powerful and delivered with focused, violent even desperate aggression. Improvised weapons can help even the odds, if you can get your hands on them in time. But a lot of attacks happen before you are even aware that there's a threat. Which technique will protect you when you suddenly realize that you have just been stabbed from behind and didn't even know it until you felt that sharp pain like a hard punch, felt the warm sticky blood on your fingers as you grab the spot, and caught a glimpse of the other guy walking away? Food for thought.

Very true. Sad, scary, but true.

 

[Christian Soldier]

It will if it A) results in a knockout - unconcious people don't try to stab or cut you, B) smashes the throat - people who can't breathe are normally too preoccupied to continue the attack, C) disorients sufficiently to require the attackers immediate attention - striking the ear for example D) causes the opponent to fall forwards towards the floor / wall - human reactions are to put our hands out to break our fall not to continue attacking.
The most important point in any response is to get off of the line of the original attack

Is it concieveable? Absolutely! Would I teach people to not control the weapon, probably not. It is definitely possible but it's just not as safe as other options. And if you catch a hit, it's not just like you are sore the next morning, it might mean you bleed out on the street. I think A, B, C, and D are all great things that I would probably do, after I have control of the knife. They can be done in a much more safe manner after you get off line and control the weapon.

 

[WingChunIan]

Is it concieveable? Absolutely! Would I teach people to not control the weapon, probably not. It is definitely possible but it's just not as safe as other options. And if you catch a hit, it's not just like you are sore the next morning, it might mean you bleed out on the street. I think A, B, C, and D are all great things that I would probably do, after I have control of the knife. They can be done in a much more safe manner after you get off line and control the weapon.

Each to their own but do you teach controlling the none striking arm for empty hand work? (notice in the clip, the first approach is made by the non knife weilding hand). The logic of control the weapon arm falls down immediately if it requires you to determine the correct response between the one for armed assailants and the one for unarmed assailants. While you're making your mind up you've already missed your opportunity.
Fighting armed assailants is a high risk strategy and one with relatively low odds of success whatever tactics / techniques you employ, personally I prefer to be in there for the shortest amount of time possible and the fastest way of bringing the situation to an end is to remove the ability of the opponent to fight, take away the conciousness, ability to breathe, ability to see or ability to stand up, and weapon or no weapon the opponent is a significantly reduced threat.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Each to their own but do you teach controlling the none striking arm for empty hand work? (notice in the clip, the first approach is made by the non knife weilding hand). The logic of control the weapon arm falls down immediately if it requires you to determine the correct response between the one for armed assailants and the one for unarmed assailants. While you're making your mind up you've already missed your opportunity.
Fighting armed assailants is a high risk strategy and one with relatively low odds of success whatever tactics / techniques you employ, personally I prefer to be in there for the shortest amount of time possible and the fastest way of bringing the situation to an end is to remove the ability of the opponent to fight, take away the conciousness, ability to breathe, ability to see or ability to stand up, and weapon or no weapon the opponent is a significantly reduced threat.

Again I agree with this: "personally I prefer to be in there for the shortest amount of time possible and the fastest way of bringing the situation to an end is to remove the ability of the opponent to fight, take away the conciousness, ability to breathe, ability to see or ability to stand up, and weapon or no weapon the opponent is a significantly reduced threat."

But it would still be much more wise to proceed to do this after you have 'defanged the snake' or have control of the weapon.

I teach my students get offline and to be in a zone of sactuary (outside the arms) so the other arm isn't a worry and is postionaly checked. It's more safe than a lot of other options and I've tried with the attacker going full force and I know it works.

 

[MJS]

It will if it A) results in a knockout - unconcious people don't try to stab or cut you, B) smashes the throat - people who can't breathe are normally too preoccupied to continue the attack, C) disorients sufficiently to require the attackers immediate attention - striking the ear for example D) causes the opponent to fall forwards towards the floor / wall - human reactions are to put our hands out to break our fall not to continue attacking.
The most important point in any response is to get off of the line of the original attack

Each to their own but do you teach controlling the none striking arm for empty hand work? (notice in the clip, the first approach is made by the non knife weilding hand). The logic of control the weapon arm falls down immediately if it requires you to determine the correct response between the one for armed assailants and the one for unarmed assailants. While you're making your mind up you've already missed your opportunity.
Fighting armed assailants is a high risk strategy and one with relatively low odds of success whatever tactics / techniques you employ, personally I prefer to be in there for the shortest amount of time possible and the fastest way of bringing the situation to an end is to remove the ability of the opponent to fight, take away the conciousness, ability to breathe, ability to see or ability to stand up, and weapon or no weapon the opponent is a significantly reduced threat.

While all of the above mentioned things are effective, I'd still say that without control, you're running a very high risk of getting cut, more than you may have to be. Each and every time you extend your hand to hit the ears, throat, etc, you're giving the guy with the knife, a limb to cut.

As for the 2nd part of your post...yes, I teach controlling for emtpy hands as well, and I've never had any of the issues you mention. Spontaneous reaction drills teach people how to do this. You have no idea whats coming, so you simply adapt to whats being presented.

You're correct....knife defense is a scarey thing...and this is why I cringe with alot of the stuff that I see thats taught. However, there is also quite a bit of excellent stuff out there as well.

Like I said, the things you mention are good tools, however, you're banking on the 1 shot, 1 kill which may not always work.

 

[mook jong man]

Some things that need to be considered with knife defence are , that you may not have the time or the distance at your disposal to get off the line of the attack.

Or that you may not even see the knife in the first place , in low level light conditions it may look like the attacker is just trying to punch you , it's quite likely you will be half way through your normal counter to a punch before you even recognize he has a knife in his hand if you even see it at all.

If you are aware that he has a knife in his hand great , then go for controlling the knife wielding limb , but if you are already in the process of defending what you thought was a regular punch and you see the knife , then you should press forward in your attack with such speed and ferocity that the attackers brain is fully occupied with the battering it is receiving and not in trying to stab you.

You really have to try and harness all your aggression and speed and go straight through them like a freight train in order to survive.

 

[Christian Soldier]

You really have to try and harness all your aggression and speed and go straight through them like a freight train in order to survive.

Truth. I may quote this next time I teach knife defence.

 

[WingChunIan]

Like I said, the things you mention are good tools, however, you're banking on the 1 shot, 1 kill which may not always work.

Not at all, I never once mentioned relying on one strike. I teach quite the opposite. As with most Wing Chun I teach that each strike should carry venom but that strikes should be thrown in clusters creating a continuous barrage that overwhelms the opponent. I agree with mjm's post re aggression.
We are all entitled to our own opinions but I do find it mildly amusing that your argument against striking is that your limb may get cut but yet you advocate grabbing for / striking the weapon arm. If we're talking about risks then I'd rather put my money on hitting (with a barrage of shots) the slower moving target that causes maximum damage and has a chance of stopping things than trying to strike / grab a fast moving limb that even if successful still hasn't stopped the fight and requires another action to do so.

 

[oftheherd1]

...

I do find it mildly amusing that your argument against striking is that your limb may get cut but yet you advocate grabbing for / striking the weapon arm. If we're talking about risks then I'd rather put my money on hitting (with a barrage of shots) the slower moving target that causes maximum damage and has a chance of stopping things than trying to strike / grab a fast moving limb that even if successful still hasn't stopped the fight and requires another action to do so.

Most techniques against a knife in Hapkido, first control the knife hand, then continue with something that renders the knife hand imobile, or unable to be used. The technique will also usually render the other hand incapable of being used due to the technique forcing the attacker's body to be turned, or the defender moving out of range, or both. I think the same is true from the little I know of Aikido. I guess the old masters had already figured out what you are talking about. But good for you to question that. The knowledge that unarmed knife defense is fraught with more danger than punch defense can save your life. But that doesn't mean that all knife defenses are no good.

 

[Instructor]

One of the things I do too is to let my students grab the my knife hand, then simply drop the knife into my other hand and start slashing away. It really throws off their game.

 

[Cyriacus]

One of the things I do too is to let my students grab the my knife hand, then simply drop the knife into my other hand and start slashing away. It really throws off their game.

I totally forgot how easy it was to switch hands with a knife - Thanks!

 

[Chris Parker]

One of the things I do too is to let my students grab the my knife hand, then simply drop the knife into my other hand and start slashing away. It really throws off their game.

I totally forgot how easy it was to switch hands with a knife - Thanks!

To be bluntly honest, it's far less realistic than might be expected. With the effects of adrenaline in the situation, once the knife hand is caught, the immediate response (natural response) is to try to regain control of that arm (and thereby regaining control of the knife itself). It's only when that hasn't worked that the knifeman might (and I stress might) think of changing hands. The thing to realize about such tactics is that they are still fairly fine motor, and consciously made decisions, neither of which are really there for you in a high adrenaline situation. What is easy in training is damn impossible in reality.

The only real benefit I can think of is that it will gear the students up to be aware at all times of where the weapon is, in order to ensure that it is controlled at all times. But as a realistic tactic for an attacker? Nope. You're better off getting your students to handle someone trying to violently pull the knife out of the defenders grip... because that, alone, is very difficult to deal with, and essential when you are dealing with realistic knife defense.