How do you defend against this? (Knife Attack)

[MJS]

It's kind of interesting that so many people think a thrown jacket is so useful in self defense. Against a punch or kick is one thing, but priorities change drastically when a weapon is in the equation.
Now if we were talking about a jacket like the one my friend wears that would be a different story. But he rides a motorcycle so his jacket has steel and carbon fiber plates inside it. Makes decent armor and is heavy and hard enough to knock someone silly or used to hit the weapon hand. Soft jackets just really aren't that useful.

That being said, I believe my part in this debate is pretty well over. My point stands that experiencing attacks firsthand is much better than all the advice in the world. And I don't expect anyone in the world to take my advice, or anyone else's at face value for that matter.

The point of training with a marker in place of a knife ( which I agree with Chris, I think the point was missed ) is that, unlike the training knives, it leaves a mark without damage. After a defense is executed you can look to see any contact with the "blade" and gauge the injuries you would have incured. The results will likely surprise you, I know it did me.
It was good advice to do this though, because it was a wake up call without actual damage. I was glad I trained in this manner because it allowed me to figure out good defenses and also to not get overconfident in my ability. And before doing this exercise I admit that I was WAY too sure in my abilities. The first time I tried this training exercise with a marker, I was covered in graffiti.
I could only imagine what might have happened if I had encountered an actual blade back then. And in all honesty, it probably would have been very bad for me.

Great points...no pun intended. I may've mention the jacket in some of my posts, but I do know that earlier, I mentioned something that would be a bit more effective. If I had a choice between tossing a jacket or a heavier object, I'd of course pick the latter. As for the more realistic training, ie: no lie blade, marker, I agree...those are great training tools, and if one is serious about SD with a knife, then this is necessary.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Well, you're right in what the video is claiming to show (for the record, it's not entirely correct.... most knife assaults are ambushes, rather than rushes, but the frenetic energy and speed is accurate). The real point of the clip, though (according to the uploader) is that, unless you're training to handle that type of sudden, explosive attack, there's a very good chance that your knife defence is deeply, some might say fatally, flawed. And, honestly, from reading through your take on such things, I'd suggest that that might be the case here...

I train to handle any kind of attack - there are basically 3 - Frenzy (hardest to defend against), single attack (often precedes a frenzy) and the threatening point or wave.


I don't think you really get the effect that reaction timing has on things here.... are you familiar with the OODA loop? Oh, and no, by the way. Taking a step back, or even to the side, takes longer than a step forward. That's mainly due to the way we, as human beings, are designed. We're angled in one direction (forwards), and optimised for that direction when it comes to fast, explosive movement. Our hip flexors, our knees, our ankles, are all designed to support a sudden spring forward, not back, or sideways. So.... no. Wrong.

Had to google the OODA loop that's just part of the natural thinking process that is improved by training. By your reasoning side steps are completely useless which is simply not true.

Uh, actually, no. Wrapping the jacket around your forearm/wrist is a gross motor, single action, basically done by holding in one hand, and rapidly rotating your wrist/hand once.

Unless you do it wrong, like do it too far forward, cover just your hand or it slips from your grip before it wraps in which case you just wasted valuable time. It's a good tactic but it can also reduce the dexterity in that hand.

Throwing (to get the result you're after) requires holding in two hands, opening the jacket (to get the proper "spread"), bringing it back towards your body, extending both arms towards the attacker, releasing the jacket, and hoping that the simple wind resistance (heightened by the opening of the jacket) doesn't slow the throw down too much once the jacket is released, ending in a low-impact (ineffective impact) contact.

That would have to be just about the slowest way to throw a jacket and for crying out loud throwing the jacket is not for impact (I obviously don't expect it to knock him out or injure him).

And, let's not forget, once you've thrown the jacket, you've just thrown away the only real asset you had for protection... for very little return, if anything. Oh, and no, that's really not all the distraction you need, as, in the heat of a real assault, it's really not enough of a distraction to be truly effective. Sorry.

Using the jacket as a barrier to the knife didn't work to well for the defender in the video.

Here's the reality. We, as people, are hard-wired to move along what is referred to as the "Primal Line". That line is straight forward (to advance), and straight back (to retreat). A typical "fright" responce is to start to move back along this primal line.... which is exactly what is seen in the clip. It takes a hell of a lot of training to be able to move in any other direction as an initial action, as it is going directly against your hard-wired survival instincts, honed through thousands of generations. So while side-stepping is very useful, as an initial action, it's just not going to be there (in a real, sudden, violent, high-adrenaline assault). It would be a second, or third action, at best... which means you need to have survived long enough to be able to employ it in the first place. Oh, and I don't think you really get the reality of reactionary time, or human mechanics here, let alone the realities of such assaults.

Side stepping is quite a natural reaction for me I have avoided many impacts doing it. People are hard wired, yes, but they also have concious thought, reflexes, intelengence and skills that evolve with training that can override the hard wiring. A non-martial arts example - you see something falling you instinctivley try to catch it, unless it happens to be hot. A friend of mine was with me at TAFE and she droped a clay pot out of the tongs she was pulling it out of a furnace set at 600 degrees and went to catch it in her hand (hard wired response) I grabbed her arm and stopped her in time (concious thought) and reflexes).

Tell you what, let's ignore the lack of reality to this tactic, and look at the low possibility that you actually managed to "trip" the knifeman coming in towards you... what do you think their responce would be? I'll give you a clue... if someone's attacking with that amount of velocity (and aggression), they're not going to be stopped by being tripped... and they'll be fairly committed to injuring/killing you. That means you're dealing with someone acting with a survival mentality (unconsciously)... so an obstacle, causing them to start to fall, will have them immediately try to retain balance.... which will commonly be achieved by reaching out with the spare hand, and grabbing hold of something (in the situation you describe, most likely you) to steady themselves... which will have them quite simply falling, uncontrolled towards you with a knife. Bad, bad, bad plan.

I will try to put this in simple terms anyone can understand - It is completely impossible for someone to travel forward and trip and fall on someone standing next to him at 90 degrees from his direction of travel. When he falls the knife would be nowhere near me, especially considering I will be on the opposite side of his knife holding hand.

They will not fall on their own knife, they will not slash or stab themselves (more likely the knife hand will reach out [away from themselves] in an attempt to keep balance, for the record), so again, there is a large disconnect with reality in your plan.

Don't seem to remember ever mentioning him falling on his knife or slashing or stabbing himself. His knife hand can reach out all it wants, I will be on the other side, in any case the natural reaction of someone falling forward is to reach out in front or underneath them not to the side.

The deeply (fatally) flawed one you're suggesting? I'm thinking if you try it, there's not much hope for you (yeah, you specifically).

What ever you say.

In essence, our defence is very much what Mark describes. The first step is to both avoid the knife, and to put a barrier inbetween the knife and your body, whether a forearm, their arm, an improvised item, a car, whatever. So long as there is something between your body and the knife, you aren't being stabbed (to the body). Next is control, which needs to be very tight and secure (we train against the knifeman trying to regain control of it constantly), and then we get to the "finishing" actions, which might be a barrage of strikes, a take-down (using the momentum of the attacker trying to regain their knifearm), or a couple of other method we have, ending commonly with a disarm once the attack has been stopped (so it can't be resumed).

I also use those methods, if you are going to block the knifeman's arm make it hurt and make the following strike(s) hurt even more.

Right. Uh, no, really. Stopping the forward momentum isn't actually necessary... and grabbing the wrist with both arms is actually not getting a lot of control, as you're allowing free movement of the elbow and shoulder (no control). That can lead to the arm whipping around a fair bit, and you getting your arm cut up as the knife is retrieved pretty easily.

It does not matter so much if his elbow and shoulder can move, its my two arms versus his one so unless he has twice my strength or is hopped up on drugs or I am just trying to hold him there for more than 2 seconds that knife is not going anywhere near anything vital.

As far as your students pulling the knife onto themselves, well, "forgetting to move the knife to one side" isn't the issue (as, again, that's really not a hugely realistic ideal).

I am referring to beginners mainly doing the technique for the first time.

I think you have completely missed the point that Drasken was making... as well as showing (again) that you don't have much of a realistic idea of what knife defence is all about.

That's what is commonly referred to as a joke - Google Mr Squiggle.

 

[MJS]

I know you're directing this at Chris, but I thought I'd comment as well.

I train to handle any kind of attack - there are basically 3 - Frenzy (hardest to defend against), single attack (often precedes a frenzy) and the threatening point or wave.

Ok

Had to google the OODA loop that's just part of the natural thinking process that is improved by training. By your reasoning side steps are completely useless which is simply not true.

I had mentioned the Tueller Drill. I'm not saying sidestepping is useless, however, it may not be the best thing to do, situation depending.

Unless you do it wrong, like do it too far forward, cover just your hand or it slips from your grip before it wraps in which case you just wasted valuable time. It's a good tactic but it can also reduce the dexterity in that hand.

I'm still curious as to what the fixation is with the jacket.

That would have to be just about the slowest way to throw a jacket and for crying out loud throwing the jacket is not for impact (I obviously don't expect it to knock him out or injure him).

Again, whats the big thing with the jacket? I mean really...unless you're already holding it, I'd rather keep it on and worry about saving my ***, rather than taking the jacket off, in hopes to wrap it around my hand or throw it.

Using the jacket as a barrier to the knife didn't work to well for the defender in the video.

LOL...more jacket stuff!

Side stepping is quite a natural reaction for me I have avoided many impacts doing it. People are hard wired, yes, but they also have concious thought, reflexes, intelengence and skills that evolve with training that can override the hard wiring. A non-martial arts example - you see something falling you instinctivley try to catch it, unless it happens to be hot. A friend of mine was with me at TAFE and she droped a clay pot out of the tongs she was pulling it out of a furnace set at 600 degrees and went to catch it in her hand (hard wired response) I grabbed her arm and stopped her in time (concious thought) and reflexes).

Again, I'll refer back to the Tueller Drill. Seems like those guys didn't have much luck sidestepping...and they were 21ft apart.

I will try to put this in simple terms anyone can understand - It is completely impossible for someone to travel forward and trip and fall on someone standing next to him at 90 degrees from his direction of travel. When he falls the knife would be nowhere near me, especially considering I will be on the opposite side of his knife holding hand.

I'll defer back to the Tueller Drill.

Don't seem to remember ever mentioning him falling on his knife or slashing or stabbing himself. His knife hand can reach out all it wants, I will be on the other side, in any case the natural reaction of someone falling forward is to reach out in front or underneath them not to the side.

Of course, we shouldn't forget that environment dictates what we can/can't do. Playing devils advocate for a moment...what if you were unable to do what you describe?

I also use those methods, if you are going to block the knifeman's arm make it hurt and make the following strike(s) hurt even more.

Agree.

It does not matter so much if his elbow and shoulder can move, its my two arms versus his one so unless he has twice my strength or is hopped up on drugs or I am just trying to hold him there for more than 2 seconds that knife is not going anywhere near anything vital.

Of course, lets not forget that he (the bad guy) has another hand, that he'll most likely be using to strike. I've got no issues with the 2 hand grip, but the position of your own body while doing it, is also important.

 

[Chris Parker]

Right.

I train to handle any kind of attack - there are basically 3 - Frenzy (hardest to defend against), single attack (often precedes a frenzy) and the threatening point or wave.

Uh.... okay.... besides this being incorrect, and your take on things showing that you're a little lacking in a range of what you're trying to talk about, I don't quite see what this has to do with anything... let alone the quote of mine you were using, unless you're trying to say that you do train to handle what is shown in the clip (yeah... still got major doubts on that)?

Had to google the OODA loop that's just part of the natural thinking process that is improved by training. By your reasoning side steps are completely useless which is simply not true.

First off, the OODA loop is a way of describing a cognitive process, and while training can be used to improve it, realistically, it's more something that can be understood, and applied agaisnt an opponent. And no, I'm not saying that side-steps are useless... I'm saying you were wrong when you said it took less time than the steps forward (from the attacker).

Unless you do it wrong, like do it too far forward, cover just your hand or it slips from your grip before it wraps in which case you just wasted valuable time. It's a good tactic but it can also reduce the dexterity in that hand.

Wow. "Do it wrong"? It's a single flick of the wrist, not a precise action (hence it being more high-return, as well as faster than the throwing of the jacket...). And the only real point I was making was that it was far better than the tactic you were suggesting, not that it was flawless or guaranteed... but I gotta say, the issues you're finding aren't really that much of an issue, when it comes down to it...

That would have to be just about the slowest way to throw a jacket and for crying out loud throwing the jacket is not for impact (I obviously don't expect it to knock him out or injure him).

No, it'd be the only way to get any real usage out of throwing one... without the pull back, you just have a fluttering, slow moving, limp piece of clothing that might not even make it to the attackers face. Again, physics here.

Using the jacket as a barrier to the knife didn't work to well for the defender in the video.

Where did you see him try to use it as such?!?! Again, the clip is about the style of attack, not the "defence", which was non-existent, other than an attempt to move back away from the knifeman...

Side stepping is quite a natural reaction for me I have avoided many impacts doing it. People are hard wired, yes, but they also have concious thought, reflexes, intelengence and skills that evolve with training that can override the hard wiring. A non-martial arts example - you see something falling you instinctivley try to catch it, unless it happens to be hot. A friend of mine was with me at TAFE and she droped a clay pot out of the tongs she was pulling it out of a furnace set at 600 degrees and went to catch it in her hand (hard wired response) I grabbed her arm and stopped her in time (concious thought) and reflexes).

And here we have a complete lack of understanding of violence and adrenaline... as well as hardwired responces.

I will try to put this in simple terms anyone can understand - It is completely impossible for someone to travel forward and trip and fall on someone standing next to him at 90 degrees from his direction of travel. When he falls the knife would be nowhere near me, especially considering I will be on the opposite side of his knife holding hand.

Yeah.... you'd be grabbed, by the same reflex that caused your friend to try to catch the clay pot. And they'd still be holding a knife, as well as now holding you. Bad place to be. Ends in blood. Lots of it. Not theirs.

Don't seem to remember ever mentioning him falling on his knife or slashing or stabbing himself. His knife hand can reach out all it wants, I will be on the other side, in any case the natural reaction of someone falling forward is to reach out in front or underneath them not to the side.

Yeah, went back and re-read your post. I misread you saying they would stab/slash across themselves (at you, presumably) as being that they would stab/slash across their own body (cutting themselves, by landing on their knife as a result of your trip).

What ever you say.

Yep.

I also use those methods, if you are going to block the knifeman's arm make it hurt and make the following strike(s) hurt even more.

Control is far more important... in fact, thinking about blocking painfully to the arm is not what I would suggest...

It does not matter so much if his elbow and shoulder can move, its my two arms versus his one so unless he has twice my strength or is hopped up on drugs or I am just trying to hold him there for more than 2 seconds that knife is not going anywhere near anything vital.

Yeah... again, physics. Or, more realistically, biomechanics. The most likely result (in reality) is that you get your hands cut up as they pull their knife arm back. They don't need to be on drugs, or even necessarily any stronger than you, as you're not going two hands against one, you're going two hands against an entire body with freedom of movement.

I am referring to beginners mainly doing the technique for the first time.

Yeah... kinda missed the point there....

That's what is commonly referred to as a joke - Google Mr Squiggle.

Please, son. I'm Australian too, and hardly need to be informed of our classic TV shows... you might also note I didn't ask who he was, but pointed out that such a flippant responce showed a huge lack of understanding of the value of the exercise you were suggested.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I know you're directing this at Chris, but I thought I'd comment as well.
I had mentioned the Tueller Drill. I'm not saying sidestepping is useless, however, it may not be the best thing to do, situation depending.

Everything is dependent on the situation. The way I explain to students who, in free sparring, do not side step is that if a car war barreling towards (like the guy in the video) you would you try to out run it or get out of its way.


Again, whats the big thing with the jacket? I mean really...unless you're already holding it, I'd rather keep it on and worry about saving my ***, rather than taking the jacket off, in hopes to wrap it around my hand or throw it.

I too would rather keep it on it was a debate on what to do with it if since it was already off as what the guy in the video did didn't help him (it was like he thought he was a Matador).
Again, I'll refer back to the Tueller Drill. Seems like those guys didn't have much luck sidestepping...and they were 21ft apart.

You will have to be more specific with the video you are referring to.
Of course, we shouldn't forget that environment dictates what we can/can't do. Playing devils advocate for a moment...what if you were unable to do what you describe?

True, then you would have to do something else you just can't rely on one tactic to work in all situations you have to be fluid and adapt.
Of course, lets not forget that he (the bad guy) has another hand, that he'll most likely be using to strike. I've got no issues with the 2 hand grip, but the position of your own body while doing it, is also important.

Some good points there

 

[RTKDCMB]

First off, the OODA loop is a way of describing a cognitive process, and while training can be used to improve it, realistically, it's more something that can be understood, and applied agaisnt an opponent. And no, I'm not saying that side-steps are useless... I'm saying you were wrong when you said it took less time than the steps forward (from the attacker).

Since there were no side steps in the video so it's difficult to judge which is faster and it depends upon the reflexes, physical condition and mental state of both people. I can certainly move quicker one step to the side than I can several steps backwards to avoid the guy.

Wow. "Do it wrong"? It's a single flick of the wrist, not a precise action (hence it being more high-return, as well as faster than the throwing of the jacket...). And the only real point I was making was that it was far better than the tactic you were suggesting, not that it was flawless or guaranteed... but I gotta say, the issues you're finding aren't really that much of an issue, when it comes down to it...


No, it'd be the only way to get any real usage out of throwing one... without the pull back, you just have a fluttering, slow moving, limp piece of clothing that might not even make it to the attackers face. Again, physics here.

Last thing I am saying about the jacket - if you grab it in the middle of the collar and flick the wrist (kinetics does the rest) and it takes about half a second to get up to face height and only flutters on the way down, even a light shirt does this. Never argue physics with a physicist.

Where did you see him try to use it as such?!?! Again, the clip is about the style of attack, not the "defence", which was non-existent, other than an attempt to move back away from the knifeman...

He was holding it out in front of him like a Matador

Yeah.... you'd be grabbed, by the same reflex that caused your friend to try to catch the clay pot. And they'd still be holding a knife, as well as now holding you. Bad place to be. Ends in blood. Lots of it. Not theirs.

You are either completely ignoring the mechanics of the situation or misunderstanding the relative locations of the positions of both the attacker and defender I am suggesting. Here is a simple test - run full speed at someone, have them step out of the way, with their body 2 feet away from you at 90 degrees from your direction of travel, and try to grab them anywhere (probably 1/5 of a second later you will be behind him). Next do it while they are kicking your legs out from under you. If you can do that effectively then post it as a video and I will proclaim you king of the universe.

Control is far more important... in fact, thinking about blocking painfully to the arm is not what I would suggest...

You can't control anything if you can not avoid the initial attack by blocking or grabbing the arm ut I see your point.

Yeah... again, physics. Or, more realistically, biomechanics. The most likely result (in reality) is that you get your hands cut up as they pull their knife arm back. They don't need to be on drugs, or even necessarily any stronger than you, as you're not going two hands against one, you're going two hands against an entire body with freedom of movement.

I will try to find a video of the technique (the one I mentioned is the exact one Langenschwert suggested to which you said "ahh that's much better") it is similar to the one you suggested earlier. Grabbing the wrist with both hands has a much greater chance of success in stopping the knife going in than grabbing with one hand on the wrist and the other further up his arm which puts you closer to the knife. After the initial attack is stopped and you have a double handed grip on his wrist then you can take one hand and place it further up the arm if you want. However in the situation in the video you would still get run through with the knife, it would be more useful if they were just standing in front of you and lunged instead of in a full sprint.

Please, son. I'm Australian too, and hardly need to be informed of our classic TV shows... you might also note I didn't ask who he was, but pointed out that such a flippant responce showed a huge lack of understanding of the value of the exercise you were suggested.

1) I am not your son 2), having a sense of humor does not mean you do not see the value in the exercise and 3) covering a rubber training knife with a dye on the simulated cutting surfaces would give you a more accurate measure of if you would be cut by the knife than a marker, single edged knives do not cut on all surfaces and angles.

 

[MJS]

Everything is dependent on the situation. The way I explain to students who, in free sparring, do not side step is that if a car war barreling towards (like the guy in the video) you would you try to out run it or get out of its way.

I understand the sidestepping that you're talking about. My point was simply that if we look at the Tueller Drill we'll see that sidestepping isn't always 100%.

You will have to be more specific with the video you are referring to.

See above for the Tueller Drill. As for the videos...well, Karl Tanswell for example.

[yt]-_ZO17yWi7I[/yt]

Since we were talking about the 2 hand grip, I thought it'd be important to note how they're holding in the clip. IMO, the method they're using is pretty secure, allows for the defender to throw counter strikes, and move the badguy in a fashion to limit what they can/can't do.

True, then you would have to do something else you just can't rely on one tactic to work in all situations you have to be fluid and adapt.

So, if we're in agreement with that, why then, do you keep talking about sidestepping, as if that is "the best" solution?

Some good points there

IMHO, this is something that is often neglected with alot of knife defense. People tend to focus on the weapon hand only. One of the things that you'll see alot of, in the FMAs, is the use of the 2nd hand. This is one of the many reasons, why I enjoy my FMA training. It's opened my eyes to alot that was missing in the knife defense that I see in the other arts that I do.

 

[RTKDCMB]

[/B]I understand the sidestepping that you're talking about. My point was simply that if we look at the Tueller Drill we'll see that sidestepping isn't always 100%.

Nothing ever is.

[/B] Since we were talking about the 2 hand grip, I thought it'd be important to note how they're holding in the clip. IMO, the method they're using is pretty secure, allows for the defender to throw counter strikes, and move the badguy in a fashion to limit what they can/can't do.

Good video but if you notice at no stage is anyone running at the defender in a full sprint so getting to those positions, or the double handed grip for that matter, during the first initial attack when he is closing the distance could be problematic. Once he stays within stabbing range then these techniques would become more useful.If the side step and trip/turning kick works then the attacker will be flat on his face but if it doesn't then he will have to turn around and face you and you can do something else, it is only to counter the initial charge. I like the name of the program.

[/B] So, if we're in agreement with that, why then, do you keep talking about sidestepping, as if that is "the best" solution?

I am not saying it is the best or only solution just defending it from people who think it is no solution at all.

[/B]IMHO, this is something that is often neglected with alot of knife defense. People tend to focus on the weapon hand only. One of the things that you'll see alot of, in the FMAs, is the use of the 2nd hand. This is one of the many reasons, why I enjoy my FMA training. It's opened my eyes to alot that was missing in the knife defense that I see in the other arts that I do.

I agree it is often neglected, that is why in my school we also practice free sparring with the knife where the knife holder is free to use their other hand and both of their feet. We also use it to demonstrate that if you have to defend against a knife then you should expect to get cut. We are also mindful when performing any kind of standing grappling of putting the attacker in a position where he is unlikely to be able to strike you with his other hand.

 

[MJS]

Nothing ever is.

Yet you seem to thrive on that constantly, in many of your replies.

Good video but if you notice at no stage is anyone running at the defender in a full sprint so getting to those positions, or the double handed grip for that matter, during the first initial attack when he is closing the distance could be problematic. Once he stays within stabbing range then these techniques would become more useful.If the side step and trip/turning kick works then the attacker will be flat on his face but if it doesn't then he will have to turn around and face you and you can do something else, it is only to counter the initial charge. I like the name of the program.

Heres another with a bit more action.

[yt]kiNjFlfIQXI[/yt]

I am not saying it is the best or only solution just defending it from people who think it is no solution at all.

Yet as I said above in this post, that you seem to talk about it...ALOT. You also seem to avoid the link I posted to the Tueller Drill, which, IMO, pretty much shuts down the idea that the sidestep will work. If these guys are having difficulty at 21ft, well, in the clip in the OP of this thread, those guys are much closer. I'm sorry, but sidestepping in that case, will not work.

I agree it is often neglected, that is why in my school we also practice free sparring with the knife where the knife holder is free to use their other hand and both of their feet. We also use it to demonstrate that if you have to defend against a knife then you should expect to get cut. We are also mindful when performing any kind of standing grappling of putting the attacker in a position where he is unlikely to be able to strike you with his other hand.

Good.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Yet as I said above in this post, that you seem to talk about it...ALOT. You also seem to avoid the link I posted to the Tueller Drill, which, IMO, pretty much shuts down the idea that the sidestep will work. If these guys are having difficulty at 21ft, well, in the clip in the OP of this thread, those guys are much closer. I'm sorry, but sidestepping in that case, will not work.

The only link you posted to the Tueller Drill was a Wikipedia page which shuts down nothing, just words on a page. The drill is about drawing a hand gun which has nothing to do with martial arts. Most of those drills involve police officers standing still trying to draw their weapon. Even when they side step they are concentrating on using both hands to draw the weapon without leaving their hands free to defend. That tells you using a gun against a knife at close range is not a good idea, which I already knew. If you want to disprove side stepping as a viable option for empty hand self defence against a knife then find something a bit more relevant.

 

[mook jong man]

The only link you posted to the Tueller Drill was a Wikipedia page which shuts down nothing, just words on a page. The drill is about drawing a hand gun which has nothing to do with martial arts. Most of those drills involve police officers standing still trying to draw their weapon. Even when they side step they are concentrating on using both hands to draw the weapon without leaving their hands free to defend. That tells you using a gun against a knife at close range is not a good idea, which I already knew. If you want to disprove side stepping as a viable option for empty hand self defence against a knife then find something a bit more relevant.

Why do you have to use lateral side stepping? , which leaves you out of position in case something goes wrong , with the attacker now right at the side of you.
Why don't you try stepping diagonally forward , orientating your body to a 45 degree angle as you step , it gets you out of the path of the weapon and still leaves you with both your hands equal distance to the attacker to defend yourself.

 

[MJS]

The only link you posted to the Tueller Drill was a Wikipedia page which shuts down nothing, just words on a page. The drill is about drawing a hand gun which has nothing to do with martial arts. Most of those drills involve police officers standing still trying to draw their weapon. Even when they side step they are concentrating on using both hands to draw the weapon without leaving their hands free to defend. That tells you using a gun against a knife at close range is not a good idea, which I already knew. If you want to disprove side stepping as a viable option for empty hand self defence against a knife then find something a bit more relevant.

Are you really that clueless? I take it by your resonse, that you have no clue as to what this drill is, or what its purpose is. I'm sorry, but I'm not going to do your research for you. If you want to know about it, figure it out for yourself. You're missing the point. If you have someone with a gun, and someone with a knife, and they're 21ft apart, and the guy with the knife is able to reach the guy with the gun, in 21ft,, then certainly if you put the people closer, even if the defender had no gun, the point I'm making, is that the guy with the knife will close much faster. No time for sidestepping. As I said, if you were paying attention, I'm not against it, but I am not getting as excited over it, as you seem to be.

 

[Chris Parker]

Oh dear lord...

Everything is dependent on the situation. The way I explain to students who, in free sparring, do not side step is that if a car war barreling towards (like the guy in the video) you would you try to out run it or get out of its way.

And how much relation do you think sparring has to what we're discussing here? If you think it actually has any, I suggest reading the current thread on the Fight/Flight response (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/108380-The-fight-response)...

I toowould rather keep it on it was a debate on what to do with it if since it was already off as what the guy in the video did didn't help him (it was like he thought he was a Matador).

No, actually it wasn't. There was a suggestion that throwing it at the attacker was a good idea, and that was challenged... so far, nothing has convinced me that your plan has any merit beyond postponing the stabbing for half a second or so.

You will have to be more specific with the video you are referring to.

MJS wasn't referring to a video of the Tueller Drill. He was referring to the drill itself. And, bluntly, if you want to have any credibility in teaching knife defence, you really should know what the drill is... and what it shows.

True, then you would have to do something else you just can't rely on one tactic to work in all situations you have to be fluid and adapt.

So... did you actually have an answer?

Some good points there

You seem to have missed them.

Since there were no side steps in the video so it's difficult to judge which is faster and it depends upon the reflexes, physical condition and mental state of both people. I can certainly move quicker one step to the side than I can several steps backwards to avoid the guy.

Uh... no. It's actually quite obvious to those who know what the realities of the situations described are. And, more to the point, steps backwards are going to be what you take, regardless of what you can do faster.

Last thing I am saying about the jacket - if you grab it in the middle of the collar and flick the wrist (kinetics does the rest) and it takes about half a second to get up to face height and only flutters on the way down, even a light shirt does this. Never argue physics with a physicist.

Physicist? Really? Hmm... can you explain why you're ignoring inertia, then? The force required to throw a heavier jacket? The lack of impetus for a lighter one? Seriously, the whole "throw the jacket in their face" is badly flawed from the outset, and physics is against you.

He was holding it out in front of him like a Matador

But wasn't doing anything to use it as a barrier (other than a psychological one)... so.... your point?

You are either completely ignoring the mechanics of the situation or misunderstanding the relative locations of the positions of both the attacker and defender I am suggesting. Here is a simple test - run full speed at someone, have them step out of the way, with their body 2 feet away from you at 90 degrees from your direction of travel, and try to grab them anywhere (probably 1/5 of a second later you will be behind him). Next do it while they are kicking your legs out from under you. If you can do that effectively then post it as a video and I will proclaim you king of the universe.

Tell you what, you try a slightly different one. Get someone to rush you, trying to gut you with a knife... see which way you step. Oh, and your technique is a purely theoretical one... I can see how you came up with it, and it "works" logically... but is fatally flawed in practice. These things can't really be "thought out"... which is the real issue here.

You can't control anything if you can not avoid the initial attack by blocking or grabbing the arm ut I see your point.

I don't think you did, really.

I will try to find a video of the technique (the one I mentioned is the exact one Langenschwert suggested to which you said "ahh that's much better") it is similar to the one you suggested earlier. Grabbing the wrist with both hands has a much greater chance of success in stopping the knife going in than grabbing with one hand on the wrist and the other further up his arm which puts you closer to the knife. After the initial attack is stopped and you have a double handed grip on his wrist then you can take one hand and place it further up the arm if you want. However in the situation in the video you would still get run through with the knife, it would be more useful if they were just standing in front of you and lunged instead of in a full sprint.

I've been down this path before, with Ras... that was a headache and a half. But, to deal with it briefly, there is a large difference between a high/low control, and a two-hands-on-the-wrist control, and Langenschwert suggested neither. All he said was "control". Two-hands-on-the-wrist is a desperation grab, and needs to transition almost immediately. Otherwise, you lose control real quick, and bleed soon after.

1) I am not your son 2), having a sense of humor does not mean you do not see the value in the exercise and 3) covering a rubber training knife with a dye on the simulated cutting surfaces would give you a more accurate measure of if you would be cut by the knife than a marker, single edged knives do not cut on all surfaces and angles.

Your lack of awareness of the Tueller Drill, your laughing off a standard, good practice, and so on, gives the impression that you genuinely didn't see the value. There was no indication of a sense of humour, just a lack of understanding. Oh, and no, that is actually a less accurate measure, due to the variables of where the blade can contact. If you use a marker, then you can clearly see where the tip (the most effective part of the blade) contacts, and how, which is far more accurate.

Nothing ever is.

I'll embelish on MJS's behalf here... side-stepping is dangerous to the point of deadly without control. And you have not shown any real comprehension of the realities of the speed, distance, adrenaline effects, and so on, which is the real point.

Good video but if you notice at no stage is anyone running at the defender in a full sprint so getting to those positions, or the double handed grip for that matter, during the first initial attack when he is closing the distance could be problematic. Once he stays within stabbing range then these techniques would become more useful.If the side step and trip/turning kick works then the attacker will be flat on his face but if it doesn't then he will have to turn around and face you and you can do something else, it is only to counter the initial charge. I like the name of the program.

Oh, dear lord.... I really hope you're not teaching knife defence....

I am not saying it is the best or only solution just defending it from people who think it is no solution at all.

Hmm, here's a thought... have you taken on board the critiques offered? Or are you just defending it because it's something you came up with for the thread, and don't want to be seen as not knowing what you're talking about?

I agree it is often neglected, that is why in my school we also practice free sparring with the knife where the knife holder is free to use their other hand and both of their feet. We also use it to demonstrate that if you have to defend against a knife then you should expect to get cut. We are also mindful when performing any kind of standing grappling of putting the attacker in a position where he is unlikely to be able to strike you with his other hand.

Hmm.

The only link you posted to the Tueller Drill was a Wikipedia page which shuts down nothing, just words on a page. The drill is about drawing a hand gun which has nothing to do with martial arts. Most of those drills involve police officers standing still trying to draw their weapon. Even when they side step they are concentrating on using both hands to draw the weapon without leaving their hands free to defend. That tells you using a gun against a knife at close range is not a good idea, which I already knew. If you want to disprove side stepping as a viable option for empty hand self defence against a knife then find something a bit more relevant.

Oh dear lord....

 

[RTKDCMB]

Oh dear lord...

And how much relation do you think sparring has to what we're discussing here? If you think it actually has any, I suggest reading the current thread on the Fight/Flight response (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/108380-The-fight-response)...


No, actually it wasn't. There was a suggestion that throwing it at the attacker was a good idea, and that was challenged... so far, nothing has convinced me that your plan has any merit beyond postponing the stabbing for half a second or so.


MJS wasn't referring to a video of the Tueller Drill. He was referring to the drill itself. And, bluntly, if you want to have any credibility in teaching knife defence, you really should know what the drill is... and what it shows.



So... did you actually have an answer?



You seem to have missed them.



Uh... no. It's actually quite obvious to those who know what the realities of the situations described are. And, more to the point, steps backwards are going to be what you take, regardless of what you can do faster.



Physicist? Really? Hmm... can you explain why you're ignoring inertia, then? The force required to throw a heavier jacket? The lack of impetus for a lighter one? Seriously, the whole "throw the jacket in their face" is badly flawed from the outset, and physics is against you.



But wasn't doing anything to use it as a barrier (other than a psychological one)... so.... your point?



Tell you what, you try a slightly different one. Get someone to rush you, trying to gut you with a knife... see which way you step. Oh, and your technique is a purely theoretical one... I can see how you came up with it, and it "works" logically... but is fatally flawed in practice. These things can't really be "thought out"... which is the real issue here.



I don't think you did, really.



I've been down this path before, with Ras... that was a headache and a half. But, to deal with it briefly, there is a large difference between a high/low control, and a two-hands-on-the-wrist control, and Langenschwert suggested neither. All he said was "control". Two-hands-on-the-wrist is a desperation grab, and needs to transition almost immediately. Otherwise, you lose control real quick, and bleed soon after.



Your lack of awareness of the Tueller Drill, your laughing off a standard, good practice, and so on, gives the impression that you genuinely didn't see the value. There was no indication of a sense of humour, just a lack of understanding. Oh, and no, that is actually a less accurate measure, due to the variables of where the blade can contact. If you use a marker, then you can clearly see where the tip (the most effective part of the blade) contacts, and how, which is far more accurate.



I'll embelish on MJS's behalf here... side-stepping is dangerous to the point of deadly without control. And you have not shown any real comprehension of the realities of the speed, distance, adrenaline effects, and so on, which is the real point.



Oh, dear lord.... I really hope you're not teaching knife defence....



Hmm, here's a thought... have you taken on board the critiques offered? Or are you just defending it because it's something you came up with for the thread, and don't want to be seen as not knowing what you're talking about?



Hmm.



Oh dear lord....

You criticize others well but I am yet to hear you answer the original question with anything specific. I guess if you were up against a wall and could not step back along the 'primal line' you would be gutted since side stepping is such an impossible feat to you.

 

[Chris Parker]

You criticize others well but I am yet to hear you answer the original question with anything specific. I guess if you were up against a wall and could not step back along the 'primal line' you would be gutted since side stepping is such an impossible feat to you.

From this thread:

Mostly the same stuff we do in my classes, actually. Minimize your potential for injury firstly by being aware of potential attackers, then by creating a barrier between your body and the attacking weapon, even if that is just your own arms. As soon as possible, take control of the weapon arm, and from there you can start to apply your techniques (whether that was overwhelming strikes for those with a striking background, or locking/breaking for those with more of a grappling background, and so on). The big thing he emphasized, though, was very much just being able to survive the initial assault, both by recognizing that the attacker won't stop for you to apply whatever you want, and by understanding the adrenaline you're going to experience, and how to deal with that. I don't think he wanted to give "answers", as much as he wanted to provide the skills that would allow the answers provided by the participants own martial training to have a chance.

Other threads:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/105226-Is-Knife-defence-even-worth-teaching (my response in post 4).

Some arguments:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/97607-Kenpo-Knife-Defense-by-Juan-José-negreira

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/97177-Self-defense-against-a-knife

Specifics can't ever be truly specific in this situation, which is another reason your description failed, by the way.

 

[Balrog]

Im aware of this - But hurting His eye doesnt paralyse His arm.

In a way, it will. It is a massive burst of pain, which will change the attacker's focus from his weapon to how badly his eye hurts.

 

[Argus]

(Me) having no actual experience or knowledge on the subject, we did play around with this in class once.

One of my "oh sh**" reactions, which I wouldn't suggest doing, actually worked when I wound up slapping the inside of the attackers arm and he dropped the knife. I suppose I should have gotten punched in the face with his free hand for the effort. Or cut on the inside of the arm if I'd missed.

A few times I was able to very quickly clear and check/pin the knife arm and push the opponent away.

But of course, this was all just playing with training partners who weren't fully intent on killing you. And even then, everyone in the room was "cut."

In reality, I'd imagine that, next to running away, grabbing the nearest object would be your best bet - if you're lucky enough to see it coming at all. In the worst case scenario that you're stabbed before you even know what's happening (or that you're getting stabbed), I'd hope I'd at least be instinctually hitting back in some way.

At least, that's my uneducated, "common-sense" perception. I'm curious if it sounds reasonable to someone more knowledgeable on the topic.

 

[Cyriacus]

In a way, it will. It is a massive burst of pain, which will change the attacker's focus from his weapon to how badly his eye hurts.

I dunno - Ive been poked in the eye, it doesnt really hurt. Its just uncomfortable. You know when you get something in your eye, and you start rubbing it? Have you ever considered that that isnt even vaguely painful?

Hence my conclusion youd have to either beat the blink reflex and maintain pressure, or wedge your chosen appendage in. Both of which take time in which you get stabby stabby. Theres a whole thread on this we can dig up if youd like

 

[RTKDCMB]

I can also see downward block on the arm, thumb to eyeball shoving it into his skull. That is much less complicated.

It would be very difficult to get your thumb in his eye whilst he is rushing forward like that, it would be better to get put of his line of attack and strike instead.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I dunno - Ive been poked in the eye, it doesnt really hurt. Its just uncomfortable. You know when you get something in your eye, and you start rubbing it? Have you ever considered that that isnt even vaguely painful?

A penetrating eye injury would be incredibly painful if your eyeball is punctured or compressed so much it bursts.