How do you defend against this? (Knife Attack)

[Christian Soldier]

Yeah I was pretty much thinking mostly the same things as you guys. Basically get off line, control the weapon, strike to distract him (eyes, throat, or groin), and then some kind of take down/arm bar, then run.

I think the best knife technique I've seen was in a Military manual, which basically just said grab their arm, get them in an arm bar, and put all you body weight and effort on that arm untill they are flat on they stomach. It requires a little more distance than in this vid but it's incredibly simple and can be easily modded for versatility.

I just got an idea to drill this!

Allright, so the first thing you teach is to get off line. So you give each pair a short pool noodle or a traning knife and have one person go full force with the thrusts, and have the defenadant move offline. After they get this concept you need to teach them to control the weapon. So you have them step off line and grab. Then you have them grab and react with a strike. And finally you have the attacker go all out and have them grab, react, and take down (arm bar type takedowns only).

If you wanted to make it a little more difficult for the more advanced students, you can have the attacker put the knife in the other hand, give the attacker two knives, or have two knife armed attackers that alternate attacking.

 

[chinto]

There was another clip posted on here, a while back, which depicted the same type of attack. Guy doing the seminar picked a random student and had them do a technique. He then asked him if he thought the tech was good, and then proceeded to pump the knife into him the same way we saw here. Needless to say, the tech went south fast. And yes, in that clip I mentioned, I didn't see any solutions from the guy.

Obviously the no brainer is to get the hell out of there. However, that may not always be possible. The next best option would be to grab something as an equalizer. A rock, a chair, anything, and use it as a distraction, ie: tossing it at the guy and hauling *** in the other direction, or to strike with. Last option of course, is hand to hand. Of course keep in mind that you're probably going to get cut. As for blocking....lets not forget that the badguy will most likely also be using his other hand. How many times do we see the guy with the knife do a thrust or slash, and nothing more? Someone skilled with the blade will be using their other hand as well. So, that said, I"d avoid doing a fancy block, ie: downward or X type block. Instead, I'd do whatever I could, to gain control of the weapon. IMHO, control is the first thing you should worry about. Gain control, work off balancing and counter-strikes, and then a disarm, if possible.

One of my teachers has worked in Corrections for 20+yrs, so I'm always picking his brain about the knife/shank attacks that he's seen. We've worked this many times during training. More times than not, I'm getting 'cut' or 'slashed'. However, I do my best to protect the vitals and gain control. Of course, while I'm doing this, he's trying to regain control of the weapon, moving and throwing strikes. Keeps it a bit more real.

As for a visual reference....I like what these guys do.

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ok see if this thing works this time!!


Ok I like what I am seeing in the video's get control of the weapon and arm and then get very very aggressive!! A knife is at close range usually more deadly then a gun! people with knives make sure your dead !!

I like what was called the Barrier defense, much as taught by Col. Rex Applegate and W.E. Fairbairn and O'neil in the second world war and after! get something between you and the weapon, throw something in his face! ( car keys are remarkably effective .. throw a ring of them hard at a milk jug... see the holes! ) use a chair... if you do not have these things, get control of the weapon and arm! Then get down to doing as much damage as fast as you can! the more lethal the better!!!!!! but you better be looking at killing preferably, and crippling permanently if not killing in seconds! people with knives are serious about killing and maiming you... and live steel will do that fast!

 

[Buka]

You train against that the same way you get to Carnegie Hall.

 

[Chris Parker]

So I'm a big fan of problem solving, espicially in martial arts. One attack which has perplexed me the most is the 'real knife attack'. It's fast, effective, and difficult to defend against. So how would you do it?

Keep in mind here, you can't run. If you don't render the attacker ineffective he will kill all of your immediate family, it's that kind of situation.

I'm really sick of watching seminar after seminar where the main instuctor curses up a storm, explains how you are hopeless in a knife defence situation, shows what a real knife attack is, and then doesn't show how to defend against it. I wouldn't want to pay 100 bucks for someone to tell me how hopeless I am against a knife, I want answers and solutions!

The other side side of the 'knife seminar' is guys who have unbeliveably dynamic tehcniques where you take them to the ground and get them in some crazy armbar/triangle choke and it's just way too fancy to really remember and perform on the street.

And there's a third class of knife seminar guys that just do flow drills the whole time, but that's not what this thread is for anyway.

I've come up with a few options but I'm currious on what you guys would do against this attack if you really had to and how do you train for it?

Firstly, I don't know that I'd agree that that is the most common form of knife assault... I'd suggest that, more commonly, they occur from a lot closer, and are commonly ambushes, rather than rushes along these lines. Which is, honestly, even harder to defend against.

In terms of defence against it, though, well, have solid training principles and work them so that you can apply them, regardless of the technique you're attacked with. The idea of having a "technique" to deal with it, though, I'd disagree with.

Stepping backwards into into a downward stance, low X block on the wrist guiding the attacking hand away from his body. Roll his wrist to bend him at the waist as to go for an armbar, but kick his knee as hard as you can, and ran. However, this does put him in a position that he could wrap you up. So maybe not the greatest. Maybe instead X block and guide his hand across his own body. Guide his hand upward at the same time, spinning with his hand into a horse/riding stance. Bring his wrist downward to your own waist. Unfortunately for him, the back of his elbow will meet up with your shoulder on the way down. The elbow isn't suppose to bend that way. Hopefully you won't throw up from the loud crunching of his elbow next to your ear. I only see either working as a trained response, not something that you might pull off on the fly. Tonight I'll see if they actually work when I get to class, one of the other instructors has a plastic knife.

I can also see downward block on the arm, thumb to eyeball shoving it into his skull. That is much less complicated.

Hmm. Honestly, good luck with that....

There was another clip posted on here, a while back, which depicted the same type of attack. Guy doing the seminar picked a random student and had them do a technique. He then asked him if he thought the tech was good, and then proceeded to pump the knife into him the same way we saw here. Needless to say, the tech went south fast. And yes, in that clip I mentioned, I didn't see any solutions from the guy.

Hey, Mike,

I believe you are talking about this clip (warning, Deane is an Aussie, and very much a reality-based instructor, so there's a bit of language involved...):

I've trained under Deane before, and this is not as nasty as it gets from him! Solutions, though (mainly in approach, rather than technique, as Deane, being an RBSD instructor, isn't there to teach techniques.. that's what your martial arts are for, according to him).

 

[WingChunIan]

I don't teach different defences to knife attacks than for empty hand attacks as quite frankly when it kicks off you haven't got time to work out what type of attack you are facing and the weapon could easily be concealed. With regard to the original clip, the defender should react to the intial danger ie the none knife weilding hand as it enters their space. Moving forward and to the outside of the attackers lead arm and simultaneously attacking the head / eyes / throat with the hardest shot that you have seeking to either shut them down instantly (in the case of the throat strike) or else inflict bucket loads of damage and disrupt the balance and posture at the same time is what I teach my guys. I then like to take control of the head with a quick crank / wheel and smash the guy backwards into the floor head first with an optional knee to the kidneys / spine or kick to the back of the knee. IMHO you have to shut the opponent down as quickly as possible to minimise your risk of damage whether or not they are tooled up.

 

[Cyriacus]

I'd suggest that, more commonly, they occur from a lot closer, and are commonly ambushes, rather than rushes along these lines. Which is, honestly, even harder to defend against.

And thats what almost everyone here seems to be blissfully forgetting, or not being aware of.

Or just not understanding.

 

[72ronin]

Yeah, thats the thing, if someone really wants to stab you they will be your best mate (talking and close range) right up untill the first strike hits home.
Generaly, before anything gets that far, keeping a loose 45 angle and controlling the movement/dominating the exchange range etc that kind of thing will keep you in good position, which is important imo. Thats what really stands out with the Deane Lawler clip, as we can see, once you have lost position and attacked/overwhelmed its all over.

Definately a case of prevention being better than the cure with this stuff, that means switched on, and constantly dominating angle's, which doesnt have to be terribly obvious (like strict 45 all times or anything) just work it into the way you operate etc

 

[Cyriacus]

Yeah, thats the thing, if someone really wants to stab you they will be your best mate (talking and close range) right up untill the first strike hits home.
Generaly, before anything gets that far, keeping a loose 45 angle and controlling the movement/dominating the exchange range etc that kind of thing will keep you in good position, which is important imo. Thats what really stands out with the Deane Lawler clip, as we can see, once you have lost position and attacked/overwhelmed its all over.

Definately a case of prevention being better than the cure with this stuff, that means switched on, and constantly dominating angle's, which doesnt have to be terribly obvious (like strict 45 all times or anything) just work it into the way you operate etc

So every time someone walks near me i should offset myself 45 degrees just incase They try to furiously shank Me?

Of course, if approached and spoken to, I consider it a good idea to offset Yourself a bit anyway. Not so much for self defense, but for general awareness.

 

[72ronin]

hahaha "furiously shank me" love it,

No not a nervous constant 45 at all costs!
You know what i mean

 

[Cyriacus]

hahaha "furiously shank me" love it,

No not a nervous constant 45 at all costs!
You know what i mean

Yes, yes I do

:lurk:

 

[pgsmith]

While knife defense is always an interesting subject with several different ideas on the best approach, the question has to be asked ... how many here (that aren't in law enforcement, which is a whole other approach to things) have actually been attacked by a knife wielding attacker? How many have even seen a knife attack? Knife attacks happen in a very specific environment. I don't known anyone that got attacked just wandering around the local shopping mall. Despite the fact that I grew up in a very bad part of town, I've only ever been involved in one knife attack. In that instance, I hit him with the tire iron I was carrying because I knew I was going alone (potential victim status) into a dangerous area.

If you are aware of where you are and what is going on around you, the odds of you ever having to defend yourself against a knife attack are infinitismally small. If you put your family in a situation where you have to defend them from a knife attack, you should get stabbed for being an idiot and endangering your family.

Just my thoughts on it.

 

[Blindside]

If you are aware of where you are and what is going on around you, the odds of you ever having to defend yourself against a knife attack are infinitismally small. If you put your family in a situation where you have to defend them from a knife attack, you should get stabbed for being an idiot and endangering your family. Just my thoughts on it.

Yes I agree the odds are small. OK, then what, is your point that you shouldn't train for it? That this discussion is pointless or so silly it shouldn't have been made? I haven't run into a knife in SD situation before, machete yes, knife no, and arguably the machete should be less likely than the knife. I have had students that have had knife issues as civilians, and I have students that are LE. Good thing I can provide them with some useful and potentially lifesaving information.

 

[Rich Parsons]

While knife defense is always an interesting subject with several different ideas on the best approach, the question has to be asked ... how many here (that aren't in law enforcement, which is a whole other approach to things) have actually been attacked by a knife wielding attacker? How many have even seen a knife attack? Knife attacks happen in a very specific environment. I don't known anyone that got attacked just wandering around the local shopping mall. Despite the fact that I grew up in a very bad part of town, I've only ever been involved in one knife attack. In that instance, I hit him with the tire iron I was carrying because I knew I was going alone (potential victim status) into a dangerous area.

If you are aware of where you are and what is going on around you, the odds of you ever having to defend yourself against a knife attack are infinitismally small. If you put your family in a situation where you have to defend them from a knife attack, you should get stabbed for being an idiot and endangering your family.

Just my thoughts on it.

Cut, right forearm
Stabbed Right Thigh
Lots of others I was able to redirect or present an improvised weapon to make them think other things had better options.
Been Shot at.
Lots of Baseball Bats.
Lots of golf clubs
Tire irons.
taser / Cattle prods
Hit by vehicles
Gone through window
Multiple attackers ( the norm )

And no I did not work as a LEO, which will make all LEO's ask WTF what gang did he belong too? Unique situation, I can explain the incidents.

You seem with your last statement to trivialize what most will call common sense.
Here are many situations that we all have seen, lived, or know our family and loved have done:

Cut someone off by accident and instead of just giving a timid hand wave when they pass you, they flip them off or drive aggressively.

People will take the short cut through a bad part of town low on gas, with a bad tire or with a poorly running vehicle.

Walking into a place of business which is known for high crime (The mall) and ignore lights and parking and door access, and just assume they are safe with out.

Yelling at some guy or group of guys because they think they are safe with their boyfriend or friends present.

The list goes on.

Paying attention and doing maintenance on a vehicle and traveling smart even if out of the way are not common and this leads to people being in bad situations as when it goes bad they are surprised that they are no longer safe.

 

[Marcy Shoberg]

Although I am not answering the question that the person who started this thread actually asked, I have studied and taught quite a bit of knife defense (but never been attacked by anyone with a knife) and have decided that the techniques in the book by the founder of Krav Maga (Imi Lichenfeld) seem the best to me. For anyone who is unsatisfied with the techniques they have previously been taught about defending against a person with a knife, I would recommend that book. It also covers gun and stick attacks, too. I'm sure people on this list will question the validity of my opinion, since I have never tested them when attacked. All I can say to that is read the book, it's good stuff. I think it's called "defending against armed assaults," but am not sure. I keep it at my dojang and refer to it frequently in my self-defense classes, but use my computer at home.
The best thing about the book, is that it gives the student a response to very very many possible attacks and stationary threats from all sorts of angles including from behind and the side. I've read it about 5 times. It's good stuff.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Yeah, there was a Turkey Hill (local gas station that I frequent) just down the road aways from where I am that was held a knife point just the other day. Now granted there are probably a lot more knife hold ups than attacks, but there are still knife armed belligerents and those hold ups can 'go wrong' easily. Rich pretty much said it all, it can happen. And it's best to know what to do in the event it does. Awareness should definitely be your first defence in any SD sceneraio.

 

[MJS]

Firstly, I don't know that I'd agree that that is the most common form of knife assault... I'd suggest that, more commonly, they occur from a lot closer, and are commonly ambushes, rather than rushes along these lines. Which is, honestly, even harder to defend against.

In terms of defence against it, though, well, have solid training principles and work them so that you can apply them, regardless of the technique you're attacked with. The idea of having a "technique" to deal with it, though, I'd disagree with.



Hmm. Honestly, good luck with that....



Hey, Mike,

I believe you are talking about this clip (warning, Deane is an Aussie, and very much a reality-based instructor, so there's a bit of language involved...):

I've trained under Deane before, and this is not as nasty as it gets from him! Solutions, though (mainly in approach, rather than technique, as Deane, being an RBSD instructor, isn't there to teach techniques.. that's what your martial arts are for, according to him).

Hey Chris,

Yes, thanks, that is the clip I was talking about! I'm in agreement with what you said regarding the way the initial clip was shown. Most of the knife attacks that've happened in my area, have consisted of a few stabs and mainly slashes. The rapid fire, pumping style that we see is more common in prisons. As for the 'techniques'...again, I agree. I view it just like empty hand SD. The 'techs' that we see, IMO, are simply examples. IMO, I dont view them as set in stone things, but instead, we should be using various principles.

Out of curiosity, since you've trained with Deane, what were some of the solutions that he talked about?

 

[MJS]

While knife defense is always an interesting subject with several different ideas on the best approach, the question has to be asked ... how many here (that aren't in law enforcement, which is a whole other approach to things) have actually been attacked by a knife wielding attacker? How many have even seen a knife attack? Knife attacks happen in a very specific environment. I don't known anyone that got attacked just wandering around the local shopping mall. Despite the fact that I grew up in a very bad part of town, I've only ever been involved in one knife attack. In that instance, I hit him with the tire iron I was carrying because I knew I was going alone (potential victim status) into a dangerous area.

If you are aware of where you are and what is going on around you, the odds of you ever having to defend yourself against a knife attack are infinitismally small. If you put your family in a situation where you have to defend them from a knife attack, you should get stabbed for being an idiot and endangering your family.

Just my thoughts on it.

IMHO, I dont think that the topic of knife defense is something that should be ignored. The usual catch phrase for things like this, as well as empty hand SD is, "Well, the odds of it happening are slim to none." To that, I disagree. Unless we live in a bubble or on some island in the middle of nowhere, there is always a risk of getting attacked. Oh, and here's something that happened at a shopping mall.
http://www.wtnh.com/dpp/news/crime/stabbing-meriden-mall-food-court

Have I been attacked by a knife? Nope, not yet. However, since I like to follow the motto of 'better to know it and not need it, than to not know it, and wish you did.' I do enjoy working knife defense and make it as realistic as possible. Have I seen a knife attack? Prison footage.

Yes, area will be a factor. Hartford, Ct...yeah, there's a shooting pretty much every night, some stabbings too. My small town, which is about 20min south of Hartford...yeah, we've had purse snatchings, armed robberies, etc. IMO, just because the town or area may appear to be good, doesnt mean that something bad can't or won't happen.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hey Chris,

Yes, thanks, that is the clip I was talking about! I'm in agreement with what you said regarding the way the initial clip was shown. Most of the knife attacks that've happened in my area, have consisted of a few stabs and mainly slashes. The rapid fire, pumping style that we see is more common in prisons. As for the 'techniques'...again, I agree. I view it just like empty hand SD. The 'techs' that we see, IMO, are simply examples. IMO, I dont view them as set in stone things, but instead, we should be using various principles.

Out of curiosity, since you've trained with Deane, what were some of the solutions that he talked about?

Mostly the same stuff we do in my classes, actually. Minimize your potential for injury firstly by being aware of potential attackers, then by creating a barrier between your body and the attacking weapon, even if that is just your own arms. As soon as possible, take control of the weapon arm, and from there you can start to apply your techniques (whether that was overwhelming strikes for those with a striking background, or locking/breaking for those with more of a grappling background, and so on). The big thing he emphasized, though, was very much just being able to survive the initial assault, both by recognizing that the attacker won't stop for you to apply whatever you want, and by understanding the adrenaline you're going to experience, and how to deal with that. I don't think he wanted to give "answers", as much as he wanted to provide the skills that would allow the answers provided by the participants own martial training to have a chance.

 

[pgsmith]

Yes I agree the odds are small. OK, then what, is your point that you shouldn't train for it? That this discussion is pointless or so silly it shouldn't have been made? I haven't run into a knife in SD situation before, machete yes, knife no, and arguably the machete should be less likely than the knife. I have had students that have had knife issues as civilians, and I have students that are LE. Good thing I can provide them with some useful and potentially lifesaving information.

Not at all where I was going with it. This post is what I was aiming at ...

Paying attention and doing maintenance on a vehicle and traveling smart even if out of the way are not common and this leads to people being in bad situations as when it goes bad they are surprised that they are no longer safe.

These things should be common and taught as the first and most important line of self defense. Awareness should always be the first thing taught whenever knife defense comes up. I was simply pointing out that if people are aware and thinking, they should never get in a situation where they are unarmed against a knife wielding attacker. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be trained for, just that it's far better to just not screw up in the first place! I've come across way too many people that arrogantly assume they know something, so don't worry about guarding against having to use it.

 

[bluewaveschool]

So my first thought of a x block was met with a 'ehh.....' I picked up Black Belt Magazine told for the first time in 15 years for the article on Hee-Il Cho, and flipping through it I find another article - "Project X - Why you need to revisit the traditional x-block for your self defense needs" Interesting article, makes some good points on how to use it (not against knife though) effectively.