Understanding The Weapon Before Defending Against It

[MJS]

Furthermore, many FMAs like Escrima, will also teach using your Free Limbs to strike and grapple if your Weapon Arm is at risk.
I consider it quintessential to take this into account, since someone trained in such an Art wont for a second remain still if you catch their Weapon.

Very good point! Many of the knife drills that we do, incorporate the other hand. I think that alot of times, when people are working weapon defense, they often forget about that. The badguy stands there, when in reality, he just may start resisting, grabbing, punching, etc.

That is true , but is that the type of person that is likely to be bailing you up for your mobile phone and your wallet?
Or is it more likely the attacker will be a desperate junkie with no training at all but just an intense desire to get money for the next hit.

Training time is a finite resource that must be spent wisely , I think the bulk of the training should be spent in preparing for what is the most likely scenario to occur.

It would be a bit like saying everybody must gear their training defences against being simultaneously punched and low kicked at close range whilst one of their arms is being controlled in case they happen to run into a Wing Chun guy thats a drug addict , the chances are extremely remote of that happening.

Just going by news reports it would seem to indicate that most of the people doing the attacking would be far too lazy and lacking in character to pursue any martial art for any length of time.
They want to do things the easy way , that's why they turn to crime in the first place.

Also valid points, however, I dont want to assume that the person I'm facing isn't versed with the weapon he's using.

 

[mook jong man]

Very good point! Many of the knife drills that we do, incorporate the other hand. I think that alot of times, when people are working weapon defense, they often forget about that. The badguy stands there, when in reality, he just may start resisting, grabbing, punching, etc.



Also valid points, however, I dont want to assume that the person I'm facing isn't versed with the weapon he's using.

You are going to realise long before you get to the stage of capturing his weapon arm whether he is trained or not .
But if you do manage to capture his arm , the timing from arm capture to when you start your counter attack has to be almost simultaneous.

If there is a gap between those two critical stages then you give him time to start doing things like passing his knife to his other hand or hitting with his free limbs.

Do not give him time to do anything , let him be distracted by the amount of pain he is in as you blast his quads and groin with your knee strikes.

 

[jks9199]

The danger of assuming a skilled opponent is that you can be unprepared for an amateur. Think Jim Carey's "you attacked me WRONG!" skit.

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[Buka]

While certainly possible, i believe the likelihood of an attacker passing a knife to his other hand in the middle of an encounter, is unlikely. Not to say we shouldn't be aware of it, or train for that eventuality, but I believe it's a real long shot.

 

[Cyriacus]

While certainly possible, i believe the likelihood of an attacker passing a knife to his other hand in the middle of an encounter, is unlikely. Not to say we shouldn't be aware of it, or train for that eventuality, but I believe it's a real long shot.

The attacker switching between Front Hold, Side Hold, and Reverse Grip is completely possible though.

 

[frank raud]

...I dont quite understand your Question.

I was saying, You need to have a Clean, or Relatively Clean Record to successfully get a Firearms Licence...?

How is that different from most places?

 

[frank raud]

The attacker switching between Front Hold, Side Hold, and Reverse Grip is completely possible though.

Why?Is he just brandishing the knife to intimidate you? Or are you saying that in the middle of an actual attack upon your physical self, the attacker will switch grips during the time it is most critical for him to have a solid grip on his weapon?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

The danger of assuming a skilled opponent is that you can be unprepared for an amateur. Think Jim Carey's "you attacked me WRONG!" skit.

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How true!!!

 

[MJS]

You are going to realise long before you get to the stage of capturing his weapon arm whether he is trained or not .
But if you do manage to capture his arm , the timing from arm capture to when you start your counter attack has to be almost simultaneous.

If there is a gap between those two critical stages then you give him time to start doing things like passing his knife to his other hand or hitting with his free limbs.

Do not give him time to do anything , let him be distracted by the amount of pain he is in as you blast his quads and groin with your knee strikes.

Agreed, and this is the same principle that Krav Maga uses when they do weapon disarms.....the simultaneous block and counter strike. As for knowing whether or not he's skilled...true...if he's facing you, sure, it should be easy to tell, of course, I'd say it'd also depend on whether or not the intended victim knows what to look for, thus the purpose of this thread.

 

[MJS]

The attacker switching between Front Hold, Side Hold, and Reverse Grip is completely possible though.

Agreed!!!

 

[Buka]

The attacker switching between Front Hold, Side Hold, and Reverse Grip is completely possible though.

Yes, I believe that to be correct. And switching hands is also a correct possibility. I have to constantly remind myself that assailants (oh, those pesky bad guys) have not taken the same courses of study that I have, so they don't know how they're supposed to react/attack/move. I think as instructors, that's always important to keep in mind. While teaching, I try to refrain from "he can't do anything from here" or "he can no longer generate any force once you are in this position." But, alas, I still fall into that trap from time to time.

 

[jasonb]

Yes, in order to defend against weapons, you will be able to do so MUCH better if you understand the weapon. I'd actually say it is almost impossible to defend yourself properly against a weapon if you don't understand it. Otherwise, you don't even know what you are trying to counter.

There is second hand information and then there is doing and understanding based on doing. Like they say about many things, it takes one to know one. It takes knowing how someone fights with a weapon in order to be able to defend against it. Wasn't the founder of Aikido a swordsman?

This guy knows what will happen when he grabs a gun that isn't a plastic training gun.

 

[jks9199]

Actually, it all depends. A SIG P226 won't fire if it's out of battery. So if you can grab the barrel and shove the gun out of battery, it won't fire. But a Glock WILL fire. (Short of concrete down the barrel or seriously errors in assembly, a Glock is going to go BANG if the trigger is pulled and there is a round in the chamber.) Other guns are different. Grab the barrel of a revolver, and unless you stop the cylinder -- the gun will shoot. Shotgun or other long-arm? Yeah, grab the barrel, but for leverage!

 

[Cyriacus]

I didnt notice these until now, so...

Why?Is he just brandishing the knife to intimidate you? Or are you saying that in the middle of an actual attack upon your physical self, the attacker will switch grips during the time it is most critical for him to have a solid grip on his weapon?

Yes.
Find me someone who will accost you with a Knife on the Street who is more than some thug.
Unless youre among those who thing thugs are Street Warrior Ninjas. (Only partial sarcasm there)
Also, an Experienced Criminal will formulate their own Methods. They are not Martial Artists, and they can do some strange stuff.

How is that different from most places?

Its different to Germany.
Its different to England.
Its different to China.
Its different to Canada.
Its different to the Netherlands.

Most Places =/= All Places. And if the Majority is the most important thing, well; Go Live in China.
They have the Most People. Therefore they must be the Important Majority.
I Rest My Logic

 

[frank raud]

I didnt notice these until now, so...

Originally Posted by frank raud
Why?Is he just brandishing the knife to intimidate you? Or are you saying that in the middle of an actual attack upon your physical self, the attacker will switch grips during the time it is most critical for him to have a solid grip on his weapon?







Yes.
Find me someone who will accost you with a Knife on the Street who is more than some thug.
Unless youre among those who thing thugs are Street Warrior Ninjas. (Only partial sarcasm there)
Also, an Experienced Criminal will formulate their own Methods. They are not Martial Artists, and they can do some strange stuff.


I asked two question, you responded with Yes. Which question are you answering? If you believe that experienced criminals switch grips in the middle of an assault, would it be possible for you to show a video clip of such an event? There are plenty of prison stabbings videos on youtube, or close circuit surveillance videos.


"Find me someone who will accost you with a Knife on the Street who is more than some thug."

Isn't that a contradiction? When I had some punk pull a knife on me, although his hand was shaking, he wasn't flipping it around or tossing it from hand to hand, he held it in a very tight grip. When a friend of mine was stabbed, the assailant drew his knife from the sheath and stabbed him in the belly, twice. No grip changes. When I speak with police officers and correction officers, who are friends and fellow martial artists, from places such as Toronto, Chicago, Los Angeles and New Orleans, they have all described any struggle with a knife as the BG having a death grip on the handle. Ever wonder why sometimes in prison, the assailant will tape the knife to his hand? It is not to aid in switching grips.( Someday I'll tell the story of a small police officer involved in a life or death struggle with a large cross dresser with a hunting knife which ended up in the confined space of a closet with a large amount of shoes). In my admittedly limited personal experience, as well as the broader range of experience that multiple seasoned police officers in different jurisdictions have told me, grip switching ain't no common thing.

What I'm saying is while there is an extremely slight chance of it happening, it aint reality

 

[Indie12]

I think you not only have to understand the weapon but also be very good with that understanding if you want to take a person on with one. Weapon/tool training in the Martial Sciences is super important. That is if you wish to really study for personal protection!

I would add that Weapon/Tool Training is/should be apart of Martial Sciences! But more importantly the study of the hand that holds the weapon, is even more important! Learning to control the hand is what will make weapons defense attainable.