Hours to 1st Dan

[pdg]

reaching 1st Dan within a year or so. At first I thought that was far too fast

Surely it's only too fast if everyone does it in the same time irrespective of ability?

I know there are the factories who promote everyone monthly for doing an hour a week, but that's entirely different...

 

[_Simon_]

Surely it's only too fast if everyone does it in the same time irrespective of ability?

I know there are the factories who promote everyone monthly for doing an hour a week, but that's entirely different...

Yeah exactly, it was an 'at first glance' which thought it hehe. But it absolutely makes sense now. Being completely immersed and pretty much training full-time, can't help but progress that fast! They're pretty much living it, would be grueling but wow, how cool would that be...

 

[pdg]

Hi
I'm new to the forum
But at my club to reach black belt is 4 years

Is that average, minimum or guaranteed time?

 

[JR 137]

Some really great responses. It comes down to the individual really, some people just take longer. It took me 7 or so years just to reach 4th Kyu, and that was by choice. I wanted to take my time and really absorb and understand each grade, and only wanted to do about one grading a year (plus, the gradings were brutal... didn't wanna do that more than once a year XD).

But then I've heard of people as live-in students, training almost every single day for many hours, and reaching 1st Dan within a year or so. At first I thought that was far too fast, but seems it may have been more common in the older days (from the stories I've read). And when you think about the quality tuition and quality of training they're constantly exposed to, it's no wonder that their skill and ability just skyrocket...

Mas Oyama’s Uchi-Deschi? I’ve seen some random video clips of the stuff they did. I don’t think it was a full year. And I’m pretty sure uchi-deschis weren’t true white belts with zero experience going in. There was a screening process to get into it.

Regardless of that, saying the students who came out of that program were worthy of their rank is an understatement. They were put through hell.

Not that I think you don’t know, but Kyokushin honbu wasn’t the first nor only dojo/organization with an uchi-deschi program. There are uchi-deschi programs for a lot of things - art, theater, etc.

 

[_Simon_]

Mas Oyama’s Uchi-Deschi? I’ve seen some random video clips of the stuff they did. I don’t think it was a full year. And I’m pretty sure uchi-deschis weren’t true white belts with zero experience going in. There was a screening process to get into it.

Regardless of that, saying the students who came out of that program were worthy of their rank is an understatement. They were put through hell.

Not that I think you don’t know, but Kyokushin honbu wasn’t the first nor only dojo/organization with an uchi-deschi program. There are uchi-deschi programs for a lot of things - art, theater, etc.

Nah wasn't referring to Kyokushin uchi-deshi, it was others from different styles, can't recall who though, but I do remember reading cases of reaching Shodan within a year or so, I'll have to look it up it's bugging me now haha, but they trained every day with the founder and ranked fast.

Ah no I didn't know that actually, but now that I ponder it it makes sense that there are other programs like that! Like an intensive training program. Longest thing I've done like that is Vipassana silent meditation retreats, 10 full days and about 11-12 hours of meditation each day. It's like a year's worth of spiritual work, but geez it's beyond intense... :s

 

[pdg]

Well, here's an example...



But it comes with a caveat or two

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Maybe this has been done before but I'm curious as to how many hours it takes to reach black belt or equivalent level in different martial arts in terms of hours in the dojo. Obviously this will vary depending on so many factors and the individual involved. But an average in people's experience. But I'd be interested in how different arts compare.

In NGA (Nihon Goshin Aikido, my primary art), I think the average to shodan (at least within the NGAA) is abourt 7.5 years. Most folks train 2 days a week (2.5-3 hours) most of their time, stepping that up a few times along the way, often just before testing. Then they tend to step up to about 3-4 classes a week (4-6 hours) just before brown all the way to shodan. So, the math, using the low-end numbers:

• 50 weeks * 2.5 hours = 125 hours * 7 years = 875 hours
• Extra 20 hours each test * 6 tests = 120 hours
• Extra 1.5 hours/wk from purple to brown to black = 100 hours
• TOTAL: about 1100 hours of class time

All of that feels low to me, so I'm probably underestimating the time people put in, and that doesn't include any time outside class (I probably put in 25% more time outside class). My numbers in class are probably at least 3 times that to black (a bit more than 12 years, with a couple of years of 10-15 hours/week in classes).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As said, it should be the individual...

At the school I attend (ITF TKD) each grading is primarily based on ability, but there's minimum term in grade and minimum attendance too.

Working the minimum (if you can develop in that timeframe) it'd be 3 1/2 years to first dan - attending twice per week.

Theoretically, that means 364 hours is 'possible'...

I reckon you'd definitely have to be doing a reasonable amount outside class too though.

Whether anyone has actually done that, I don't know.

IIRC, the NGAA has a similar minimum standard. I only know one person who ever got even close (except, perhaps, the person who brought it to the US). He later said he thought it was too fast.

 

[Spinedoc]

Aikido under USAF has specific time in rank requirements. Keep in mind these are the minimum. Most people have significantly more than this. USAF does not measure in terms of hours, but rather days.

No rank-6 kyu 20 days minimum
6-5 kyu 40 days minimum
5-4 kyu 80 days minimum
4-3 kyu 100 days minimum
3-2 kyu 200 days minimum
2-1 kyu 300 days minimum
1 kyu to shodan 300 days minimum.

So, to reach shodan rank (1st dan) in Aikido under USAF rules, it's a minimum of 1,040 days. Additionally, they only allow testing at seminars, which only happen 3 times per year.

It takes our students, on average, training 2-3 days per week, about 9-10 years to reach 1st dan in Aikido. The fastest I've seen yet took 6 years. And that was someone training 5+ days per week, every week. Most people simply can't do that.

BJJ...as Tony said.

 

[Rabbitthekitten]

This is great. So do people think there is a difference between grappling and striking arts?

Also about training every day for hours. I saw a travel company who sold martial arts holidays. They sold trips to train with the shaolin monks in China. These ranged from a few days up to I think five years. I imagine if you were able to go for five years training every day you come back pretty much an expert in that particular art.

 

[pdg]

I don't know enough about grappling styles to say whether I really there's a difference in rate of progression.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is great. So do people think there is a difference between grappling and striking arts?

Also about training every day for hours. I saw a travel company who sold martial arts holidays. They sold trips to train with the shaolin monks in China. These ranged from a few days up to I think five years. I imagine if you were able to go for five years training every day you come back pretty much an expert in that particular art.

I don't think there's as much difference between grappling and striking, as between arts with a small number of techniques and those with a larger number. Complexity increases learning time, and I don't think it's a linear increase.

 

[Buka]

I don't even know any more, sometimes it seems like a lot of hours, sometimes it seems lickety split. I just got a first dan in Kenpo a couple weeks ago. Only been training it part time, but that part time training started in nineteen seventy three. So, in part time training - 45 years give or take. Not sure how that translates into hours, other than a whole bootload.

And, personally, I think there's a big difference between grappling and striking arts.

 

[_Simon_]

I don't even know any more, sometimes it seems like a lot of hours, sometimes it seems lickety split. I just got a first dan in Kenpo a couple weeks ago. Only been training it part time, but that part time training started in nineteen seventy three. So, in part time training - 45 years give or take. Not sure how that translates into hours, other than a whole bootload.

And, personally, I think there's a big difference between grappling and striking arts.

Ah Buka, congrats on the 1st Dan, you kept that quiet (unless I missed it..), that's awesome news mate . And doesn't matter long it takes, everyone's journey is different hey, massive achievement, many congratulations!

And yeah for some reason every time I hear someone talking about the fact that someone else is a black belt in BJJ, there's a real aura of such respect from them and everyone around, why is that? Does it take significantly longer or is it much more difficult to become a black belt in BJJ? Or maybe I'm getting a vibe that it's more of a rarity? Very curious about this..

 

[Tony Dismukes]

And yeah for some reason every time I hear someone talking about the fact that someone else is a black belt in BJJ, there's a real aura of such respect from them and everyone around, why is that? Does it take significantly longer or is it much more difficult to become a black belt in BJJ? Or maybe I'm getting a vibe that it's more of a rarity? Very curious about this..

BJJ promotions are based on consistently demonstrated technical ability on the mat in free grappling/sparring. It's generally calibrated so a person of average natural talent will take 10-15 years of hard training 6-8 hours per week to reach black belt.

 

[hoshin1600]

I just got a first dan in Kenpo a couple weeks ago.

are you serious? i would have figured you got your BB back in the 70,s from W.Chow personally or something like that.
but if your serious,,,cool beans dude. congratulations.

 

[hoshin1600]

1000 hours actually seems about right for uechi- ryu here in the states.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

are you serious? i would have figured you got your BB back in the 70,s from W.Chow personally or something like that.
but if your serious,,,cool beans dude. congratulations.

I believe Buka has some much higher Dan grades in Karate from years ago. It's just the Kenpo rank that's recent.

 

[Balrog]

Maybe this has been done before but I'm curious as to how many hours it takes to reach black belt or equivalent level in different martial arts in terms of hours in the dojo. Obviously this will vary depending on so many factors and the individual involved. But an average in people's experience. But I'd be interested in how different arts compare.

We have a saying in our school: You don't earn a Black Belt. The Black Belt earns you.

You'll be a Black Belt when you are ready to be one.

 

[Spinedoc]

BJJ promotions are based on consistently demonstrated technical ability on the mat in free grappling/sparring. It's generally calibrated so a person of average natural talent will take 10-15 years of hard training 6-8 hours per week to reach black belt.

So you're saying...there's a chance.......Sweet. LOL.