high dans

[Brandon Fisher]

I have seen my knowledge and ability in teaching and technique grow since I was a shodan now has a godan I look back and I see the improvement in my skills both teaching and training. However I look ahead and see there is so much more. I have an idea of when I will be eligible for 6th dan but if it doesn't happen then thats ok to. I am looking forward to a lifetime of learning. But I am one that even though I have masters rank I hate being called master. I think that the term Shihan comes across better. But Sensei is my choice "teacher" who could be called something better.

Last Fearer,
I agree with your explanation and I think you truly understand it.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

For a second, I thought you had typed "bought."

Seriously, though, having all of these high dan ranks is not necessarily a bad thing at all. If anything, I consider it a good thing, as long as such ranks are only given out to those who honestly earn them. After all, a given system may very well need to differentiate who, amongst the senior yudansha, have done the most for the system over the years.

I do not approve of handing out high ranks of black belts to those who have not earned them, even in an honorary manner. Even worse, are those who try to claim that those honorary ranks are their actual rank.

Don't get me wrong; I have no problems of giving an honorary shodan ranking to excellent practitioners of the martial arts who come from other styles, and have done something significant to help the style in which I study. If they can truly help advance the system, then they do deserve some commendation for it.

If anything, I would consider such an award to be a great honor. However, that rank would still stay "honorary" (unofficial) until that person had passed all of the requirements. Plain and simple.

No way Jose! No honorary Shodan's. If your style gives a Shodan without the required work, then the work isn't worth doing and your style isn't worth learning.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Typically, after about 30 years or so of training, they have about a 10th degree

Damn I must of joined the wrong system I only went up 1 rank every 5 or so years

 

[Brandon Fisher]

10th dan after thirty years wow that means I better get a promotion about every year and half. I think most 10th dans have a minimum of 40+ years of training.

 

[Robert Lee]

Belts really do not mean that much if you look at knowledge. So if you were to show knowledge as a belt level then it may mean something to you or others And is structured to different styles. Its like a grade level no more But someday we are out of schools who cares then about that belt. Knowledge that you have gained means so much more. It goes every wher you go It bleeds into all aspects of your life. It has no rank it has only conviction and meaning to you as to who you have became. If the belt level is to be continued it should be with held until the person can represent its meaning. But then what is its meaning. It means you have put forth the effert that is obtained for that level with in your chosen style or way Of Martial training. So Its a grade. No magic happens when a person puts on a belt. What is known inside that person demonstrates itself with out a belt that skill still shines for others to see in performance. So agin the belt just shows and tell others what rank you hold. BUt a certificate tells the same. When a belt is taken away and the person still learns They are learning not to find a belt as a goal they are free to train and improve without being fixed on the idea of rank but no knowledge and performance. But I can not tell others that what they have wore around there waist for many years nothing more then a symbol and they are the same person with or with out a belt

 

[Kacey]

True seniors are, in my opinion, those who think that they do not deserve the rank they have, and who spend hours upon hours improving their skills, and, even more, passing those skills on to others. The number of stripes on a person's belt represent knowledge (or should - the point of this thread, of course, being that this is not always so). A belt (of any color) is a piece of cloth; if the instructor and student have integrity, then the belt represents knowledge. Like any other area of endeavour, it is possible to find promotion sources that lack that integrity.

I know, through experience, that my seniors truly deserve their rank; however, I have observed others whom I feel may not deserve the rank they have - but those people are not in my organization, and may well qualify under the rules of the organization they belong to.

My belt rank has meaning to me because it was conferred by people whose opinion I trust - not because of the number stripes on it.

 

[Last Fearner]

You make some interesting points and I am not here to argue with you over it, but wanted to just make a comment: You feel you are a better martial artist at 6th, than you were at 5th, and 4th, and I am sure that is true. I am also sure that would be true if you didn't count rank, or quit counting rank at 1st. You continue to train and learn and get better, and your rank itself does not influence your skill but rather only reflects it. Lack of a ranking system does not prevent continued learning and growth and improvement.

Crane, I agree with you 100% here. The knowledge and skills are separate from the belts and ranks of recognition, and we absolutely can keep learning if we do not use belts at all. My comment here, of course, was in response to the implication that higher Dans are awarded merely on time and teaching, and have nothing to do with improved skill.

after a certain point most often 4th or 5th dan you are basically promoted for time in grade rather than mastery of new technique...

This statement is, at minimum, misleading. There might not be "new" techniques, but the "mastery" of the techniques is an improvement in skill that is reflected in the promotion, just as the color belt reflects improvement for learning beginning material. So I agree with you that we learn regardless of Dan recognition, but contrary to TLH's statement, I believe the legitimate promotion of 5th Dan and above requires advanced skills beyond time in rank. Also, I do see subtle, and subliminal benefits to the use of a ranking system that would be absent without it.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me; I really appreciate it!
CM D. J. Eisenhart

 

[Ross]

Personally, our system is trying to move away from the need to visually see your dan grade on a belt.

Most of our dan grades now just wear black belts, but are still graded through the system as normal.

However, I was recently at an international seminar where there was a lot of red tape being flashed around and a certain level of elitism when they saw a plain black belt around our waist.

Ironically, when the actual contact started many of these "high" dan grades were technically less proficient than some lower grades. Make of this what you will but it was just an experience to share.

 

[Hand Sword]

And a great one for all to remember too. It's not about the stripes, it's the work you put into them.

 

[Flying Crane]

10th dan after thirty years wow that means I better get a promotion about every year and half. I think most 10th dans have a minimum of 40+ years of training.

I don't want to call anyone out publically, but I could PM you the website of a well-known senior who proudly proclaimed that after 30 years he decided it was time to assume the rank of 10th degree. I don't doubt his high level skills, but to just assume the rank, after 30 years (again, 3 years per dan grade) to me is just nonsense.

 

[Flying Crane]

However, I was recently at an international seminar where there was a lot of red tape being flashed around and a certain level of elitism when they saw a plain black belt around our waist.

Ironically, when the actual contact started many of these "high" dan grades were technically less proficient than some lower grades. Make of this what you will but it was just an experience to share.

Kind of funny how those who speak the loudest are often the ones who know the least.

 

[green meanie]

Personally, our system is trying to move away from the need to visually see your dan grade on a belt. Most of our dan grades now just wear black belts, but are still graded through the system as normal.

However, I was recently at an international seminar where there was a lot of red tape being flashed around and a certain level of elitism when they saw a plain black belt around our waist.

Ironically, when the actual contact started many of these "high" dan grades were technically less proficient than some lower grades. Make of this what you will but it was just an experience to share.

Nice.

 

[Henderson]

...but I could PM you the website of a well-known senior who proudly proclaimed that after 30 years he decided it was time to assume the rank of 10th degree. I don't doubt his high level skills, but to just assume the rank, after 30 years (again, 3 years per dan grade) to me is just nonsense.

What an arrogant ***!

 

[Robert Lee]

1. In some styles black belt time and grade is or was 3to 5 years training to test for shodan 2 years after shodan testing for nidan 2 years after nidan testing for sandan 3 to four years after sandan testing yondan .4 to 5 years after yondan testing for godan That adds up to 14 to17 years of constent training to achive 5th degree black belt. Then most dans after is time in grade and what you have done to promote and build respect in your art. that can be from 3 to 5 years agin for each grade. Now 30 years training in a art you could see maybe 7th or 8 th degree black belt But thats effert and time 10 dan is most often never achived unless you start your own group and become reconized. As most 10 dans are founders of style and now days head of organizations. Plus inheritners of as style And when you look at 1 degree rise in rank in these time tables thats fare if you have put in the training time that means being active. Now the belt may mean some what truthful. I have seen people that have less then 6 years training wearing 5th and 6 dan ranking I met a person promoted to 10th dan in a style he never trained. In these cases rank has no to little respect. Sometimes its better to forget belt levels and promote just by certified grade and because now days for every legit black belt there are maybe a 100 that did not work and test hard for what they ware Kind of the buddy and prestige system of rank.

 

[Flying Crane]

What an arrogant ***!

That was my thought as well. For many people, thirty years just seems to be a magic number of some sort. That gives me eight years to go, and nine degrees. I guess I better get busy!