high dans

[Shinzu]

after a while it gets kind of blase blah. i know i am at the beginning of my training. it is a life long goal. not just for the belt. in my system the belt changes at 4th degree. i would be happy if it were just one belt all the time. i dont think it is necessary to set yourself apart all the time.

there will always be MA's that know more than you, and there will always be MA's that know less. we should concentrate more on the value of things than the materialistic aspects.

just my 2cents

 

[KenpoBruce2006]

Two quotes,

The Karte Kid: Daniel: "What color belt do you have?"

Mr. Miyagi: "JC Penny, $3.98."

The Next Karate Kid: "Mr. Miyagi, I did it, that was great, I did it. Don't I I get a belt or something. Brown Belt, Black Belt.

Mr. Miyagi: Why need belt?"

"Come on, even Elvis had a black belt."

Mr. Miyagi: "Borrow from Elvis, next time you see him."

The way I was taught, the belt is your report card. It indicates what you have learned, not what you are "willing" to do.

Ciao
KenpoBruce2006

 

[rmclain]

Two quotes,


The Next Karate Kid: "Mr. Miyagi, I did it, that was great, I did it. Don't I I get a belt or something. Brown Belt, Black Belt.

Mr. Miyagi: Why need belt?"

"Come on, even Elvis had a black belt."

Mr. Miyagi: "Borrow from Elvis, next time you see him."

That quote is priceless and cracks me up every time!

R. McLain

 

[AceHBK]

Two quotes,

The Karte Kid: Daniel: "What color belt do you have?"

Mr. Miyagi: "JC Penny, $3.98."

The Next Karate Kid: "Mr. Miyagi, I did it, that was great, I did it. Don't I I get a belt or something. Brown Belt, Black Belt.

Mr. Miyagi: Why need belt?"

"Come on, even Elvis had a black belt."

Mr. Miyagi: "Borrow from Elvis, next time you see him."

KenpoBruce2006

LOL!!
Well put

 

[IcemanSK]

Two quotes,

The Karte Kid: Daniel: "What color belt do you have?"

Mr. Miyagi: "JC Penny, $3.98."

The Next Karate Kid: "Mr. Miyagi, I did it, that was great, I did it. Don't I I get a belt or something. Brown Belt, Black Belt.

Mr. Miyagi: Why need belt?"

"Come on, even Elvis had a black belt."

Mr. Miyagi: "Borrow from Elvis, next time you see him."

That's right. Elvis did have a belt, Baby:redcaptur

 

[Robert Lee]

Used to be that a blackbelt really meant something. And that person did represent the belt. But now days money buys belts 400 600 dollars tests yearly fees on and on. Higher ranks the same. Used to take about 15 years of constent training And improvement to make 5th dan. Now at some schools you almost get a blackbelt a year 5 years 5th dan. respect goes out the window for profit and then people wonder why less people today think very little of the M/A People have seen many so called black belts get into a street fight and loose badly because they really did not represent what that belt required to achive. Then there are still schools that promote slower and better represent the M/A .But have to fight to stay open because down the road is a school that runs the blue light special on time and belts. A little respect needs to return to M/A schools this means less students and less money But better students and less frauds.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i think there's great value in continuing to rank and grade students after black belt. provides motivation and recognition and gives the sense that forward progress is possible and necessary.

i dislike how high grade (especially 5+) is handed out in most systems these days: time in grade regardless of experience, political promotions, honorary promotions. that stuff devalues the whole system and makes me suspicious of anybody who uses the word 'master' to describe themselves.

 

[Henderson]

Our system only promotes up to Yodan (4th). Everything beyond that is a teaching level (Renshi, Shihan, Kyoshi, etc.) and is all based on your ability to teach students, and what you've given back to the art.

:asian:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

200 years ago, it was a rare accomplishment to have a grade-school education. 100 years ago, it was a rare accomplishment to have a high-school education. 40 years ago, it was a rare accomplishment to have a college degree. Now, there are millions of Americans with Masters and Doctorate degrees.

Martial Arts Dan rankings are the same. 40 years ago, Black Belt was rare. Now, we have almost as many 10th Dans as 7-11 stores. I think there can only be one solution to this situation.

Is it because the critera has gotten easier -- or is it because Martial Artists have gotten better. As I've never met a 10th degree who wasn't more knowledgeable and proficient than I, I conclude that Martial Artists have in fact gotten better.

So, I harken back to my first post on Martial Talk 3 years ago where I proposed the following solution for the problem of recognizing these accomplishments within the Kenpo community:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8067

Since the passing of Ed Parker more than a few of the most-senior Kenpo grandmasters have ascended to 10th Dan. Some in the Kenpo community believe that only Mr. Parker deserves 10th Dan and that any other 10th Dan promotions are disrespectful of Mr. Parker's great achievements.

As all who wear the two large red-bands upon their belt are far above me in skill, achievement, experience, and contribution, I am unable and unwilling to dispute any of these promotions. Certainly, these Senior Kenpoists are now and have been making significant contributions to keeping the Kenpo flame going. Certainly these Seniors are continuing to improve their skill, knowledge, and teaching and deserve recognition for this.

As our grandmasters continue to grow in the art, certainly their rank must grow as well. So what do we do to recognize the likes of Mr. Larry Tatum and Mr. Frank Trejo and their peers 10 or 20 years from now if they continue to innovate, contribute and grow at their current pace? It seems that the best way to do this is to bestow additonal rank. I strongly urge the Kenpo community to establish an 11th Dan ranking for the future recognition and promotion of the leaders of our style.

But that brings me back to the point that many Kenpoists believe that only Mr. Parker deserves 10th Dan and that no others can achieve his greatness within Kenpo. If you accept this, and accept my earlier proposition that our current grandmasters need recognition for their future growth, then you must also agree that Mr. Parker should immediately be promoted to 12th Dan.

Furthermore, as our current grandmasters progress further and their disciples eclipse their achievments in the future, additional room needs to be created at the top. As our style continues to prosper, grow and improve, we should see new pinnacles of proficiency. Perhaps every 10 years, we create another Dan level such as 13th, 14th, 15th etc. and continue to posthumously promote Mr. Parker so that he remains one level above the current seniors. By this method, Mr. Parker would be say a 22nd Dan in the year 2100 and maybe a 30th Dan by the year 2200.

I welcome your thoughts on this.

 

[Flying Crane]

200 years ago, it was a rare accomplishment to have a grade-school education. 100 years ago, it was a rare accomplishment to have a high-school education. 40 years ago, it was a rare accomplishment to have a college degree. Now, there are millions of Americans with Masters and Doctorate degrees.

Martial Arts Dan rankings are the same. 40 years ago, Black Belt was rare. Now, we have almost as many 10th Dans as 7-11 stores. I think there can only be one solution to this situation.

Is it because the critera has gotten easier -- or is it because Martial Artists have gotten better. As I've never met a 10th degree who wasn't more knowledgeable and proficient than I, I conclude that Martial Artists have in fact gotten better.

So, I harken back to my first post on Martial Talk 3 years ago where I proposed the following solution for the problem of recognizing these accomplishments within the Kenpo community:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8067

My biggest issue is how quickly these higher dan grades get handed out, or seized, by many of the seniors. Their skill, I am sure, is far far above my own, but I think one needs a little more than 2 or 3 years to jump from 7th to 8th, then to 9th, and 10th, as so often happens. In my opinion, one at these levels should expect 10 or more years per level before they could even consider another promotion, and that promotion should be far from guaranteed. But I think everyone who has been training for 30 or 40 years or more, just expects to be 10th dan at some point, so they give themselves the rank, or get their buddies to bestow it upon them for treatment in kind, and I think that is just stupid.

Personally, I think all dan grades should be eliminated. There should only be two levels: Black Belt Non Instructor, and Black Belt Instructor. Once you reach instructor, there should be no further need to dangle carrots in front of your face, or you really don't deserve the rank you have.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

My biggest issue is how quickly these higher dan grades get handed out, or seized, by many of the seniors. Their skill, I am sure, is far far above my own, but I think one needs a little more than 2 or 3 years to jump from 7th to 8th, then to 9th, and 10th, as so often happens. In my opinion, one at these levels should expect 10 or more years per level before they could even consider another promotion, and that promotion should be far from guaranteed. But I think everyone who has been training for 30 or 40 years or more, just expects to be 10th dan at some point, so they give themselves the rank, or get their buddies to bestow it upon them for treatment in kind, and I think that is just stupid.

Personally, I think all dan grades should be eliminated. There should only be two levels: Black Belt Non Instructor, and Black Belt Instructor. Once you reach instructor, there should be no further need to dangle carrots in front of your face, or you really don't deserve the rank you have.

And that was exactly the hidden message in my ridiculous suggestion.

 

[Flying Crane]

And that was exactly the hidden message in my ridiculous suggestion.

Damn, dude, I actually thought you were serious. I thought to myself "who is this nutball here on Martial Talk, who gets so wrapped up in rank?" Well, you have restored my respect for you, I am happy to say.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Damn, dude, I actually thought you were serious. I thought to myself "who is this nutball here on Martial Talk, who gets so wrapped up in rank?" Well, you have restored my respect for you, I am happy to say.

Yes, my suggestion was so over-the-top that it had to be rejected. After all... I was suggesting a posthumous 30th Dan...

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Its not always time in grade but waht you do to promote the arts and better them that gets you higher dan grades.

 

[Robert Lee]

Its not always time in grade but waht you do to promote the arts and better them that gets you higher dan grades.

After 5th dan that becomes true in most arts. But still respect in rank has to return to validate the M/A better. to many 5 and higher ranks that have few years training. Kind of cracker jack promoted ranks. Bad for the M/A But I never worry about belts any more as they do not show skill

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree with this. Even if higher ranks are given in recognition of what one has done to promote and better the arts, I find it hard to believe that even the hardest working teachers could do enough to better the arts to earn another stripe every 2-3 years. This kind of work typically takes many years of dedication, and someone else should recognize the work and award the rank, rather than seizing it for yourself.

Check out some of the senior people around. Typically, after about 30 years or so of training, they have about a 10th degree. Seems like a long time, but do the math. That's one degree every three years. Maybe if one is dedicated, somewhat gifted, and has a good instructor this could be appropriate for maybe 1st and 2nd degree, (and for most people this would be too quick) but beyond that the time should get longer and longer or it is just kind of a bad joke.

I am not advocating a specific time requirement for rank, but it does give an indication of what is realistic and what is not.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

After 5th dan that becomes true in most arts. But still respect in rank has to return to validate the M/A better. to many 5 and higher ranks that have few years training. Kind of cracker jack promoted ranks. Bad for the M/A But I never worry about belts any more as they do not show skill

I was at an event a few years back where one instructor had brought several 14-17 year 4th, 5th and 6th Dan black belts. All wearing name tags that said master on them. I refused to call them master as I had more years training than they had been alive.

 

[Last Fearner]

ok ive been thinking about this for a while... Do we really need to have so many different dan levels?

after a certain point most often 4th or 5th dan you are basically promoted for time in grade rather than mastery of new technique... so do the arts really need to have 10 different dan levels...? I for one think we dont...?

The issue of rank, and the various levels of color belts and degrees has been a controversial one, however I believe it comes mostly from a lack of understanding, rather than an "enlightened insight" to the value of belts. I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone by this, but I have noticed that most people who completely dismiss the use of belts and/or degrees are either novice color belts, low ranking black belts, or those who have studied for a long time in systems that don't use belts.

My question is, how can a person unilaterally denounce something that they have little or no experience with, and do not fully understand. If you have legitimately reached the rank of 9th or 10th Dan, look back at your career and the belt ranking system, and say, "We should do away with belts," then your argument might at least carry some weight. Many people are just agreeing with the "opinions" of other non-high ranking Black Belts who have passed on their limited views on this subject.

Now, before anyone assumes that I am saying this because of my own attachment to rank (currently 6th Dan with the US Chung Do Kwan), I can assure that I have learned the lesson, and agree with the concept that the rank is not the goal, the belt does not make the Master, and too many schools and organizations are handing out belts like candy, or selling them purely for profits with no regard for skill. However, just because many (and I do mean many) are misusing, and abusing the concept of belts, and higer degrees, does not mean that all high ranks are worthless, or that the concept of using degrees should be abandoned. In fact, quite the opposite is true.

For those that have come to the conclusion that the belts (or so many color and degree levels) don't really mean anything, or are not needed, I submit to you that there are subtle lessons to be learned by using them. One of which is this very same "insight" that you have "discovered." By using belts and degrees, we can determine who is in it for that, and who is interested in learning. Without the belts, everyone is forced to focus on one thing, and it becomes more difficult to weed out those who need to learn the lesson of materialism. I can't dangle a carrot in front of someone's nose to find out if they are more interested in the carrot, or the person who can teach them how to plant a garden, if I don't have a carrot to dangle.

On the other hand, belts and degrees serve a purpose greater than stroking one's ego, or even setting goals (which can be useful for those students who need that in the beginning). Those who think that high ranking Dans are only given out for "time" and "teaching" either are not above 5th Dan themselves, or are only familiar with organizations that place no value, or standard of requirements on the higher promotions. There is much more to "earning" a 6th, 7th, 8th or 9th Dan legitimately, for those few who do it right.

I was a much more developed student of the Martial Art at 5th Dan than I was at 4th, and the same is true at 6th Dan than I was at 5th. I am still learning! Although I have seen and understood most, if not all, techniques available to Martial Artists, there are always times of learning new applications, or countless situations and combinations in real-life self defense, not to mention honing your skills to make them better. I expand my knowledge and skills by learning and teaching weapons, Korean language, histiory, culture, philosophy, and other life lessons. The learning does not stop at Black Belt, nor at 4th Dan, and the Martial Art is not just about fighting - - so to think the promotion requirements should be based soley on what "techniques" you know, or your self defense skills, is a limited understanding of what it means to be a Black Belt in the Martial Art . . . any Martial Art!

Teaching is another important issue in that we would not have the high quality students without the skilled masters, and we would not have the skilled masters without the Grandmasters. For those who believe that all these rank variations are the creation of "western" influence, I say that is simply not true. It is a modern developement because of the expansion of Martial Art teaching world wide, but the notion came from the Asians who authorized the rank changes, and implimented them in the first place. They gave themselves higer Dan and "Master" titles to distinguish themselves from the many Westerners who were legitimately earning Black Belts. Then, they become 8th and 9th Dan Grandmasters to distinguish themselves from the dozens, then hundreds of Westerners who were teaching for 20 - 30 years and becoming legitimate Masters at 4th, 5th and 6th Dan.

... wouldnt it be nice to go back to when it was simply a black belt and not 1st thru 10th dan black belt?

Some people do this in small clubs, but then their students, and they themselves are often cut off from higher education and the mainstream of Martial Art benefits. There is no going back. Centuries ago, in Asia, a Martial Art teacher who mastered the skills, survived battles, and taught a handful of students was rare. You did not need to separate rank among them. In the 1800s, a one room school house with one teacher did not need separate rooms for kindergarden through 12th grade. They did not need a principal or superintendant, with a board of teachers to discuss and vote on issues. The one teacher made decisions and knew which students needed what. Today, schools are much more advanced, with too many students for one teacher to teach and assess everyone without written report cards, and grade levels. A teacher's qualifications are identified by their degrees, and titles within the school system.

We need various color belts, and Degrees of the Black Belt for organization, structure, expansion, efficiency, and to verify the qualifications of teachers, and thier seniors as Masters and Grandmasters. Students and Instructors need to be able to walk into a tournament or seminar anywhere and be recognized by their rank because of the legit credentials they produce. Just because some shools don't use proper standards, does not mean the system of standards is wrong. It just means we needs to reach a point where we can recognize which board of examiners actually awards rank to qualified people for the right reasons.

This is my humble opinion!
CM D. J. Eisenhart

 

[Flying Crane]

I was a much more developed student of the Martial Art at 5th Dan than I was at 4th, and the same is true at 6th Dan than I was at 5th. I am still learning!

The learning does not stop at Black Belt, nor at 4th Dan, and the Martial Art is not just about fighting - - so to think the promotion requirements should be based soley on what "techniques" you know, or your self defense skills, is a limited understanding of what it means to be a Black Belt in the Martial Art . . . any Martial Art!

Some people do this in small clubs, but then their students, and they themselves are often cut off from higher education and the mainstream of Martial Art benefits.
CM D. J. Eisenhart

You make some interesting points and I am not here to argue with you over it, but wanted to just make a comment: You feel you are a better martial artist at 6th, than you were at 5th, and 4th, and I am sure that is true. I am also sure that would be true if you didn't count rank, or quit counting rank at 1st. You continue to train and learn and get better, and your rank itself does not influence your skill but rather only reflects it. Lack of a ranking system does not prevent continued learning and growth and improvement.

I myself have never been ranked above 1st degree, and neither have I attempted to pursue higher rank thru instructors who might have granted it. Nevertheless, I have continued to train for almost 22 years, and I know I am far better now than I was when I earned my rank, but I have no higher rank to show for it. I have trained in several arts, some of which use rank, and others that do not. Regardless, I know I have grown and my skills have improved, but rank has had little to do with it. I actually find it to be liberating to not have to think about it.

We all need to respect those who are more experienced and more skilled than we are. We always have more that we can learn. But I don't feel that a big heirarchy of rank is the best way to do that.

 

[Grenadier]

I was at an event a few years back where one instructor had brought several 14-17 year 4th, 5th and 6th Dan black belts.

For a second, I thought you had typed "bought."

Seriously, though, having all of these high dan ranks is not necessarily a bad thing at all. If anything, I consider it a good thing, as long as such ranks are only given out to those who honestly earn them. After all, a given system may very well need to differentiate who, amongst the senior yudansha, have done the most for the system over the years.

I do not approve of handing out high ranks of black belts to those who have not earned them, even in an honorary manner. Even worse, are those who try to claim that those honorary ranks are their actual rank.

Don't get me wrong; I have no problems of giving an honorary shodan ranking to excellent practitioners of the martial arts who come from other styles, and have done something significant to help the style in which I study. If they can truly help advance the system, then they do deserve some commendation for it.

If anything, I would consider such an award to be a great honor. However, that rank would still stay "honorary" (unofficial) until that person had passed all of the requirements. Plain and simple.