Honoring those who gave us rights

[rmcrobertson]

The Declaration clearly says, and the Constitution certainly implies strongly, that our rights are indeed, 'self-activating.' I might add that I already mentioned the, "Starship Troopers," theory that, "force, naked force, has solved more issues," than any other thing in our history. And I do not subscribe to it. If you're curious about why, I'd sugest that you contemplate the late Pope.

My other point would be that there are a lot of people in this country who fought, and got ruined, and who died, for our rights--over things like retirement benefits, and decent wages, and insurances, and reasonable working conditions, they got killed.

I'll say it AGAIN, since it seems convenient to overlook the pervious five or six times: all honor to the men and the women in our armed forces. And the cops, if you like. But all honor too to the women and the men who got lynched, beat, shot, hanged, blown up, and god knows what else, to secure the liberties and the decencies that some of us take for granted.

 

[Makalakumu]

i certainly hope that this doesn't turn into a soldier bashing thread.

No body is bashing anyone by indicating that one does not need to worship or respect a soldier any more then any other person. One is only setting the record straight and perhaps sending a counter message to the militaristic one our society propagates.

IMO, any man or women that raises their hand to the oath and puts on the uniform has done that already.

Anyone can swear an oath. Following it with your actions is worthy of respect. With some actions, a soldier follows his oath. With others, they follow the whim of the politicians. And that whim may indeed be dark.

And apparently, by law now, one cannot refuse service no matter how much one may disagree with the ideology. (I'm referring to the case of the soldiers who ran to Canada rather participate in stealing Iraqi oil. Apparently, they feel that stealing is wrong and that they did not swear to do that when they joined the service.)

just another profession? name any other job where you are called at home with 72 hours notice, pack an over-night bag, kiss your wife and child goodbye and not come back home for 18-24 months? all the while, you are in a strange land where everyday there is someone else who woke up in that country with the sole purpose in mind to put a bullet in your head. in a country as you drive down a dirt highway apprehensive to pass by a soda can lying to the side of the road because it could be packed with C4 waiting the blow the second you drive by it. in a country that while walking to take a piss in the latrine, an RPG whizzes dangerously overhead and explodes against the wall of the latrine you were walking toward.

Sure, being a soldier is dangerous, but I'm willing to bet a firefighter in a major city or a cop in a dangerous precinct puts their butt on the line just as often. Heck, I was a volunteer fireman for many years and I had to pull my butt out of the fire (literally) many times.

Further, the questions becomes why the job is so dangerous.

Take Iraq for instance. We are there not to fight terror or hunt down some WMD or even tackle an insane dictator or any of the other lies we've been told. We are there for political reasons. We are there to "civilize" and reform Islam by force. We are there to secure our national interest and to stabalize the region for our business. Basically, we are there for the exact same reasons other countries invaded. Imperialism. All of this is part of the Project for the New American Century which was written by many of the most powerful people in the administration. They also have said that the cost of this war would be paid by Iraqi Oil Wealth, because they owed it to us. This is taking place whether they like it our not.

You know what folks? That is stealing? Is it any wonder why the most frequently targeted peices of infrastructure are the damned oil pipelines? Worse, 200,000 hooligans who like to blow up bombs and families conveniently found a target and lots of collateral damage.

Hmmm, I wonder why people would be so pissed.

in a country where hodgies can walk right up to your perimeter and throw molatov cocktails at your tent and you're forbidden to fire upon them because it's a group of hodgie children, and God forbid you take the life of a civilian or child over there.

Yes, god forbid it!

Warning - Graphic Photos

You want to shoot some kids? Blow them up? Have at it. Apparently people on the Right think this **** is somehow fine and dandy. They are the enemy. They are collateral damage. They also may have happened to be pissed that their country was in chaos and that the Americans were stealing their wealth. Well, now they are dead.

the Communist News Network and the rest of our "fine example of free speech" media would burn you at the stake with anti-war programming and news.

Fascist Jingoism at its finest.

and when that soldier does return home, the child he left as a newborn is now walking up-right on their own and hasn't a clue of who the hell you are.

Yup. Their family may be in shambles. Their businesses may be in ruins. And they may not even be whole...as in parts blown off. Oh yeah, they also come home and get their benefits cut. They come home and get forgotten because no body wants to know what exactly they did. It's a god damned tragedy the way our soldiers are used and abused by the politicians. A good man takes an oath to protect something he loves and ends up filling the coffers of a bunch of rich white men.

and yes, the American Soldier gave you every right you have. nobody is saying they are any better than the virtual warriors who sit here and shoot their mouths off. but they certainly deserve the respect. they have earned it.

No, they did not, and if you actually took the time to learn a little history, you'd know this. Of course, that would take work and its far easier to shoot off your mouth and join the unthinking jingoist chorus out there. Its far easier to spread these American myths so that others fall into the trap. Oh yes, its much easier.

Easter Bunny and Santa Claus anyone?

i'm gonna leave this thread before i lose my martialtalk membership.

Fine. Apparently the thought that everyone works together to make our country great and protect our freedoms is so repugnant that one cannot trust himself to act civil.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Rich Parsons]

Mr. Parsons:

I do not consider your remarks about, "some people," appropriate, and I would appreciate it if you would not go any further with them.

As for the other comments, well, my main points would be that a) I was responding to somebody who'd already hijacked the thread with a gratuitous slam at his fellow Americans, which he saw fit to post on a commemorative thread, b) I suspect somehow that grownups can distinguish between my repeated respect for the soldier and a mild criticism of a nonsensical bit of writing, c) it seems very clear that all sorts of offensive comments are perfectly OK, provided that they are rightist; d) this isn't a thread, "honoring a dead man," since one of the moderators saw fit to put THAT discussion in another place entirely.

I am sorry that, again, some of you folks see fit to attack personally rather than simply to deal with the ideas--especially since, whatever you may think, I seldom write that way. But it seems to me that if we're going to criticize the whole idea of jingoism, I'd have to say that one of its hallmarks is an inability to tolerate even the slightest divergance from the party line.

Mr Robertson,

I have no idea why you feel the way you do. I never said anything about you personally, only quoted you as that line triggered a thought in my brain. I gave credit to the trigger.

As to attacking personally, why do you call people "Sparky", and request to be called Mr Robertson or dealt with in some form of respect when you offer none? But that post was not about you pe se, unless you believe it was then I cannot stop you from thinking what you think. That is not my fault, as you have said similiar things yourself. Yet, I do not think we need to discuss the posting habits here as I did not mean it as a personal attack. Just some personal comments.

 

[rmcrobertson]

It's the damndest thing.

When I was a kid, they taught me that a lot of soldiers died to defend democracy and dissent, and that--unlike too many other places!--in THIS country, you were encouraged to say what you thought. After all, your right to say what you thought was what a lot of men and women fought and died for.

Gee, I hope they weren't lying.

 

[loki09789]

Sure, being a soldier is dangerous, but I'm willing to bet a firefighter in a major city or a cop in a dangerous precinct puts their butt on the line just as often. Heck, I was a volunteer fireman for many years and I had to pull my butt out of the fire (literally) many times.

Further, the questions becomes why the job is so dangerous.


upnorthkyosa

Other than the obviously political agenda laced comments about 'politics' from one that has to toe the line with state standards about education even though you may be working against your personal ideals but feels completely free to criticize other civil servants that do their job as professionals should......AND is ignoring the fact that there are clear rules of engagement and UCMJ law that delineate lawful and unlawful orders and practices AND a JAG unit and Inspector General's office that is in place to address any ethical problems...the Abu Grav and other prisoner abuses didn't go unchecked did they?

let us address this tid bit.

There may be an inherent risk when you are at the scene or punch the clock at an LEO's job or a firefighter's job but the risk of that danger jumping into bed with you while you are trying to deal with the separation from family and friends, have lost the high numbers of fellow soldiers and brothers/sisters in arms that have become your surrogate family....is not even close to a serviceman/woman's life.

You are a soldier/sailor/Coast Guard sailor/Marine 24 hours a day. You can work 24 hours a day for long stretches of time in ways that doesn't compare to civilian jobs...even Emergency service jobs that can be just as dangerous in a statistical way when you are on the clock.

Does this make them more worthy of respect than a fellow human being that is living with his parents at 45, works as a fry cook at a food chain and hasnn't done much else with his/her life? In my opinion, yes. Does that mean that one deserves more 'humane treatment' or dignified treatment on a one on one case, no.

If respect is earned, I would say servicemen/women - in a professional sense - do deserve a measure of respect more than others may. That does not mean that other professions/jobs don't deserve some respect though.

I am reminded of the "Incredibles" for some reason with this line of discussion......

 

[loki09789]

Fine. Apparently the thought that everyone works together to make our country great and protect our freedoms is so repugnant that one cannot trust himself to act civil.

upnorthkyosa

And why does respecting someone/group based on the demands of the work and the sacrifices it requires automatically a way of bashing others? That is an interpretive assumption on your part IMO.

 

[Makalakumu]

Other than the obviously political agenda laced comments about 'politics' from one that has to toe the line with state standards about education even though you may be working against your personal ideals but feels completely free to criticize other civil servants that do their job as professionals should......AND is ignoring the fact that there are clear rules of engagement and UCMJ law that delineate lawful and unlawful orders and practices AND a JAG unit and Inspector General's office that is in place to address any ethical problems...the Abu Grav and other prisoner abuses didn't go unchecked did they?

btw - it was the free press that broke the Abu Ghraib news to the world, not the military. Now, it turns out that the abuses were far more widespread...But that is in another thread.

There may be an inherent risk when you are at the scene or punch the clock at an LEO's job or a firefighter's job but the risk of that danger jumping into bed with you while you are trying to deal with the separation from family and friends, have lost the high numbers of fellow soldiers and brothers/sisters in arms that have become your surrogate family....is not even close to a serviceman/woman's life.

I still disagree. Many jobs in the military are support in nature and are insulated from conflict. A friend of mine is being shipped right now with the Air Guard. He will be stationed in Qatar. I don't suspect he'll see much fighting or anything too dangerous.

You are a soldier/sailor/Coast Guard sailor/Marine 24 hours a day. You can work 24 hours a day for long stretches of time in ways that doesn't compare to civilian jobs...even Emergency service jobs that can be just as dangerous in a statistical way when you are on the clock.

You can also have long periods of boredom and inactivity. I'm sure you may have experienced that in Bosnia. My cousin sure did his share of sitting around.

Does this make them more worthy of respect than a fellow human being that is living with his parents at 45, works as a fry cook at a food chain and hasn't done much else with his/her life? In my opinion, yes. Does that mean that one deserves more 'humane treatment' or dignified treatment on a one on one case, no.

Worthy of more respect? Again, actions will determine this for me. A soldier who participates without reservation in an activity I consider to be wrong (like stealing) will not get my respect. I do not consider Iraq to be a "just war" and I do not consider serving in Iraq worthy of additional respect. Orders may be orders, but every soldier is still an individual and may decide for themselves based on what they believe.

If respect is earned, I would say servicemen/women - in a professional sense - do deserve a measure of respect more than others may. That does not mean that other professions/jobs don't deserve some respect though.

Again, it all depends on the actions taken by the individual. If a soldier is engaged in an immoral conflict based on a premise of lies and fear, whose real purpose is imperialism, reforming a people by force, and securing natural resources for a wealthy elite, I do not consider that to be an action worthy of additional respect.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Makalakumu]

And why does respecting someone/group based on the demands of the work and the sacrifices it requires automatically a way of bashing others? That is an interpretive assumption on your part IMO.

Real threats to our freedom do not use force. They use pens and words. Soldiers cannot fight these threats and therefore are not the ONLY defenders of our freedom.

Moreover, soldiers did not "give us" our freedoms because of the above.

Perhaps it should be noted that education is the true protector of our freedom. Education, democracy, and citizenship will keep this country the beautiful place it is.

We all serve in our own part and each is equally important.

 

[loki09789]

btw - it was the free press that broke the Abu Ghraib news to the world, not the military. Now, it turns out that the abuses were far more widespread...But that is in another thread.



I still disagree. Many jobs in the military are support in nature and are insulated from conflict. A friend of mine is being shipped right now with the Air Guard. He will be stationed in Qatar. I don't suspect he'll see much fighting or anything too dangerous.



You can also have long periods of boredom and inactivity. I'm sure you may have experienced that in Bosnia. My cousin sure did his share of sitting around.



Worthy of more respect? Again, actions will determine this for me. A soldier who participates without reservation in an activity I consider to be wrong (like stealing) will not get my respect. I do not consider Iraq to be a "just war" and I do not consider serving in Iraq worthy of additional respect. Orders may be orders, but every soldier is still an individual and may decide for themselves based on what they believe.



Again, it all depends on the actions taken by the individual. If a soldier is engaged in an immoral conflict based on a premise of lies and fear, whose real purpose is imperialism, reforming a people by force, and securing natural resources for a wealthy elite, I do not consider that to be an action worthy of additional respect.

upnorthkyosa

And I was talking about accountability not exposure...

"Every Marine is a rifleman first" this is at least partly true of the other branches as well. If they aren't there directly, so what, they 'might be' to a higher degree than anyone else.

YOu bet we did, and I would rather than than the 'excitement' that I could have had on a regular basis....but I was there and honored my oath and would have done/did my job when things were potentially 'exciting.'

Yes, soldiers have to power to decide and can refuse unlawful orders and will be held accountable if they don't, so we don't 'respect' them because of these people?

Well, based on your perception of the whole Iraq situation EVERY servicemember is short of your respect.....

 

[Makalakumu]

Well, based on your perception of the whole Iraq situation EVERY servicemember is short of your respect.....

Not short of my respect. I have more empathy then that. Good men and women sign up in the hopes of serving this country and can be forced to do immoral things that may even be lawful. What do you do then?

Suck it up and gut it out I guess...but that ain't worthy of additional respect.

A little research would have turned up that doing lawful but immoral things happened to be a risk in the military. Not one that I would take.

 

[Brother John]

There is some evidence that the cited poem is not the work of Father O'Brien, but rather a Charles Michael Province.

Strange, the showing disrespect for members of our society that are not in the military does not make you sick. Oh, Well.

I really didn't think it was showing disrespect, but to each their own.
That's the thing about our country, it takes ALL of us.
The Soldier may have affirmed and defended our right to do all of these things and have these freedoms, but it's up to those of us entitled to those freedoms to exercise them, appreciate them and fight for them by means other than the weaponry of war.
True; each side must be respected for their role. But I don't begrudge a soldiers right to express pride in their role, they earned it.

Your Brother
John

 

[Rich Parsons]

I just wish people would stay on topic and not make every thread an issue, when there may not have been one.

Just my thoughts, as I do not expect people to listen or to learn or take hints, but I do expect to make comments sometimes that people do not like, in the hopes that they do not go home with their toys or cry that they are being punished or abused.

Yet, some cannot see past the title on this forum, and did not or could not see past the education level(s) of myself or others. Somme people live in their own worlds, and expect everyone else to follow along, even if they say they do not expect it.


Once again personal opinion and comment. I know not all will understand nor look past it.

Peace
:asian:

Freedom of Speach and those who died for it. Is a great thing, but you still must follow all the local laws and regulations or be in trouble with the locals for distrubing the peace or not having the right license to have a parade and such.

This internet forum also has local laws called our rules and guidelines. One of them is to stay on topic and to post in a friendly manner and not insulting nor acusing of others. When people break the rules they either pay the fine like a man, or they whine about it and try to get out of it, or the create a crusade and swear they were persecuted and that thier rights were violated. Martin Luther King had a reason, to stand up and make a statement. many of those here in the internet do not. They have personal agendas and do not care what others think nor care wabout those they hurt. The internet is impersonal. I wonder if people would act as childish in person? If you break the rules, the fine is stay on topic post by a moderator. If it continues then PM is sent. If the PM is received poorly or if the situation continues then the person could be suspended. Just like a driver's license when you get too many speeding tickets.

My apologies to the actual readers and contributors of this thread and to the family and friends of those this thread was created about for my slightly off topic, but relevant posts.

:asian:

 

[Tgace]

I really didn't think it was showing disrespect, but to each their own.
That's the thing about our country, it takes ALL of us.
The Soldier may have affirmed and defended our right to do all of these things and have these freedoms, but it's up to those of us entitled to those freedoms to exercise them, appreciate them and fight for them by means other than the weaponry of war.
True; each side must be respected for their role. But I don't begrudge a soldiers right to express pride in their role, they earned it.

Your Brother
John

Nicely said.

Most of this **** is just wordy ways of saying "you aint all that". Fueled mosty by the side that wasnt.

 

[davidg553]

Yes. All those people mentioned, as honorable and important as they were, would have meant nothing if it were not for the soldiers that bought their freedom from the King of England with their blood.

When someone says soldier, I tend to think of the professional soldier. Its good to keep in mind that the many of those who were technically soldiers were nothing more than ultimately untrained volunteeer's fighting for what they believed in. I'm sure some could argue this but I just don't see the local farmer with limited military training being in the same class as a professional.

 

[davidg553]

btw - it was the free press that broke the Abu Ghraib news to the world, not the military. Now, it turns out that the abuses were far more widespread...But that is in another thread.

I don't believe that Loki was referring to the "breaking" of the story. His point was that the Abu Grav issue was being dealt with by the Military. IIRC, the investigation was under way before the story was released to the public and that it was broken because of leaks.

AFAIK, the military was quiet about it prior to the story being widespread because the incident(s) were still under investigation. Granted, we will never know if they would have released the story once their investigation was over but as you said, thats for another thread

 

[loki09789]

Not short of my respect. I have more empathy then that. Good men and women sign up in the hopes of serving this country and can be forced to do immoral things that may even be lawful. What do you do then?

Suck it up and gut it out I guess...but that ain't worthy of additional respect.

A little research would have turned up that doing lawful but immoral things happened to be a risk in the military. Not one that I would take.

Empathy is not the same as respect.

So the Jews that didn't revolt and overthrow the guards in concentration camps, but survived places like Auschwitz only deserve a 'measure of respect' but not full respect simply because they chose endurance over a short life?

It is convenient to judge and decide the value of a 'soldier' or anyone else from the position of observer, out of context, with no real comprehension of the situation as it is on the ground.

From our historical perspective post WWII people could say that the Atom Bomb was immoral. View it from a historical context and viewing ot from the perspective of a Pre-drop America and it might not look so cut and dry.

 

[Makalakumu]

Most of this **** is just wordy ways of saying "you aint all that". Fueled mosty by the side that wasnt.

Do you really believe what I think you are implying?

 

[Tgace]

I "respect" a 19 y.o. private in Iraq I dont know 1000% more than a black belt, Soke, GM, Guro, yadda yadda that I dont know.

And even some that I do.

 

[Makalakumu]

Empathy is not the same as respect.

So the Jews that didn't revolt and overthrow the guards in concentration camps, but survived places like Auschwitz only deserve a 'measure of respect' but not full respect simply because they chose endurance over a short life?

It is convenient to judge and decide the value of a 'soldier' or anyone else from the position of observer, out of context, with no real comprehension of the situation as it is on the ground.

From our historical perspective post WWII people could say that the Atom Bomb was immoral. View it from a historical context and viewing ot from the perspective of a Pre-drop America and it might not look so cut and dry.

Auschwitz is not even similar to serving in Iraq.

What makes you think my position is that of the observer, totally out of context and that I have no real comprehension of what is going on? Couldn't I say the same of you? Or anyone who isn't directly serving in the situation? Or perhaps there could be good sources of information. Perhaps one has learned to be discerning. Or perhaps my POV simply disagrees with your POV and so someone has to be an observer, totally out of context with no comprehension of what is going on.

Viewing Iraq historically is dangerous to the jingo as it stands. One will find disturbing ties between Saddam, the Bushes and other. And one will see PNAC for what it truly is. Imperialism. So, by all means, veiw this situation historically and learn as much about it as possible.

 

[Makalakumu]

I "respect" a 19 y.o. private in Iraq I dont know 1000% more than a black belt, Soke, GM, Guro, yadda yadda that I dont know.

And even some that I do.

Why? You know that soldier about as well as any MAist you meet on the internet.

What makes that person so special? Sounds like a gang mentality if you ask me.