Honoring those who gave us rights

[Rich Parsons]

I don't expect to win converts. I expect, from time to time, to say a little somethinhg about the jingoism and bias.

I just wish people would stay on topic and not make every thread an issue, when there may not have been one.

Just my thoughts, as I do not expect people to listen or to learn or take hints, but I do expect to make comments sometimes that people do not like, in the hopes that they do not go home with their toys or cry that they are being punished or abused.

Yet, some cannot see past the title on this forum, and did not or could not see past the education level(s) of myself or others. Somme people live in their own worlds, and expect everyone else to follow along, even if they say they do not expect it.


Once again personal opinion and comment. I know not all will understand nor look past it.

Peace
:asian:

 

[ginshun]

Just a question about waht really happened: was I the writer who posted the piece that said it wasn't reporters, or poets, or organizers, etc., who "gave," us our rights, but only soldiers?

I in no way deny that reporters, poets, organizers, ect. have done a lot to give us the freedoms that we have today. If you had made a thread honoring a reporter for the work he/she did towards the freedoms we now hold dear, I would not have felt the need to minimize that persons effort by naming a bunch of soldiers and proclaiming how they also did a lot toward granting us said freedoms.




Adepts post probably should be part of this thread though, as I see now that that was the instegation for your post.

 

[shesulsa]

You know, it continues to strike me as odd that posting a pretty aggressive attack on poets, reporters, and the rest of them liberal flag-burnin' pantywaists is in no way offensive--but oh boy, let somebody say anything about that, and suddenly admonishments on language are everywhere.


Not to mention the fact that I'm hard-pressed to find what was so naughty about the language in a post that ended with, "All honor to them for that."

Then too, if we must split the thread--why wasn't it split starting with the post that dragged the right-wing rhetoric into a thread that was simply meant as a commemoration?

I don't expect to win converts. I expect, from time to time, to say a little something about the jingoism.

If you have a problem with how the thread was moderated then, by all means, complain to the administration. That would the intelligent, appropriate thing to do.

And your comments about the "jingoism" might be better received if not placed in a thread designed to honor a dead man.

 

[Fortis]

One of the best ways to argue a point is to sympathize with the opposite view first. The best diplomats do it.

Having said that, this debate doesn't make a lot of sense to me in that, fundamentally, everyone seems to agree with the merits of both sides. Some are just choosing to be more inflamed about it and look for an argument where there isn't one.

This thread got off the topic of everyone being able to be a hero sometime ago.

To the Medal of Honor recipient...*bow*

 

[rmcrobertson]

Mr. Parsons:

I do not consider your remarks about, "some people," appropriate, and I would appreciate it if you would not go any further with them.

As for the other comments, well, my main points would be that a) I was responding to somebody who'd already hijacked the thread with a gratuitous slam at his fellow Americans, which he saw fit to post on a commemorative thread, b) I suspect somehow that grownups can distinguish between my repeated respect for the soldier and a mild criticism of a nonsensical bit of writing, c) it seems very clear that all sorts of offensive comments are perfectly OK, provided that they are rightist; d) this isn't a thread, "honoring a dead man," since one of the moderators saw fit to put THAT discussion in another place entirely.

I am sorry that, again, some of you folks see fit to attack personally rather than simply to deal with the ideas--especially since, whatever you may think, I seldom write that way. But it seems to me that if we're going to criticize the whole idea of jingoism, I'd have to say that one of its hallmarks is an inability to tolerate even the slightest divergance from the party line.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Nothing against Sergeant Smith...he certainly deserved the "Blue Max," but here's a Jarhead who probably should have gotten it as well.

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/lookupstoryref/200456162723

Single-handedly assaulting an enemy trench and taking out twenty armed Iraqis isn't good enough, apparently.

Cheez...


Regards,


Steve

 

[Flatlander]

Mod Note:


Discussion of contemporary American political jingoism split off to here. Please continue the original topic here, please.

-Dan Bowman-
-MT Moderator-

 

[loki09789]

Nothing against Sergeant Smith...he certainly deserved the "Blue Max," but here's a Jarhead who probably should have gotten it as well.

http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/mcn2000.nsf/lookupstoryref/200456162723

Single-handedly assaulting an enemy trench and taking out twenty armed Iraqis isn't good enough, apparently.

Cheez...


Regards,


Steve

Sometimes it depends on those who are willing to submit and chase the recomendations...if no one thought to do it, he will not be considered.

Is this one being investigated?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Here is a good site upon which to find information about people who were not soldiers, but who fought, and in some cases died, to, "give," us our rights:

http://www.iww.org/unions/iu120/

 

[Tgace]

a) I was responding to somebody who'd already hijacked the thread with a gratuitous slam at his fellow Americans, which he saw fit to post on a commemorative thread.

The poster was from Australia.

 

[Tgace]

I would say the Revolutionary War soldiers "gave" us our rights. Soldiers have helped preserve them ever since.

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. So being from Australia, he couldn't have been off base in any way.

2. Here's another site on which to find some info about folks who fight to defend our rights:

http://www.law.georgetown.edu/faculty/nkk/documents/philcarter.pdf

3. Before you crank up, Mr. Carter is a retired Army officer.

4. And perhaps some people fantasize that love of their country is best exemplified by a flag-waving actor's maudlin website.

 

[Tgace]

No, just stating fact.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Hm. Well, that's not what the Declaration says, and it ain't what Washington said, neither.

Just stating facts.

 

[Tgace]

Thats right, you were mistaken about that too werent you?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

The Declaration said we were "endowed" with certain rights (by our creator). The Crown was withholding them from us, so soldiers "gave" them back to us.

 

[Sapper6]

The military is just another profession. Like any other. Respect them as humans. Anything more must be earned.

i certainly hope that this doesn't turn into a soldier bashing thread. IMO, any man or women that raises their hand to the oath and puts on the uniform has done that already. just another profession? name any other job where you are called at home with 72 hours notice, pack an over-night bag, kiss your wife and child goodbye and not come back home for 18-24 months? all the while, you are in a strange land where everyday there is someone else who woke up in that country with the sole purpose in mind to put a bullet in your head. in a country as you drive down a dirt highway apprehensive to pass by a soda can lying to the side of the road because it could be packed with C4 waiting the blow the second you drive by it. in a country that while walking to take a piss in the latrine, an RPG whizzes dangerously overhead and explodes against the wall of the latrine you were walking toward. in a country where hodgies can walk right up to your perimeter and throw molatov cocktails at your tent and you're forbidden to fire upon them because it's a group of hodgie children, and God forbid you take the life of a civilian or child over there. the Communist News Network and the rest of our "fine example of free speech" media would burn you at the stake with anti-war programming and news. and when that soldier does return home, the child he left as a newborn is now walking up-right on their own and hasn't a clue of who the hell you are.

so enlighten us all; how many other professions can say they do this?

and yes, the American Soldier gave you every right you have. nobody is saying they are any better than the virtual warriors who sit here and shoot their mouths off. but they certainly deserve the respect. they have earned it.

i'm gonna leave this thread before i lose my martialtalk membership.

 

[Tgace]

i certainly hope that this doesn't turn into a soldier bashing thread. IMO, any man or women that raises their hand to the oath and puts on the uniform has done that already. just another profession? name any other job where you are called at home with 72 hours notice, pack an over-night bag, kiss your wife and child goodbye and not come back home for 18-24 months? all the while, you are in a strange land where everyday there is someone else who woke up in that country with the sole purpose in mind to put a bullet in your head. in a country as you drive down a dirt highway apprehensive to pass by a soda can lying to the side of the road because it could be packed with C4 waiting the blow the second you drive by it. in a country that while walking to take a piss in the latrine, an RPG whizzes dangerously overhead and explodes against the wall of the latrine you were walking toward. in a country where hodgies can walk right up to your perimeter and throw molatov cocktails at your tent and you're forbidden to fire upon them because it's a group of hodgie children, and God forbid you take the life of a civilian or child over there. the Communist News Network and the rest of our "fine example of free speech" media would burn you at the stake with anti-war programming and news. and when that soldier does return home, the child he left as a newborn is now walking up-right on their own and hasn't a clue of who the hell you are.

so enlighten us all; how many other professions can say they do this?

and yes, the American Soldier gave you every right you have. nobody is saying they are any better than the virtual warriors who sit here and shoot their mouths off. but they certainly deserve the respect. they have earned it.

i'm gonna leave this thread before i lose my martialtalk membership.

Ditto...same...out.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Ah yes, the "Communist News network," very nice, would this be the one that Ted Turner--well known for his espousal of the precepts of Comrade Lenin and Comrade Mao--started? Nothing like those billionarie Commie rats!

Nobody has yet ragged on soldiers. Some of us have objected to the constant demands that everybody adhere strictly to the right-wing Party Line.

Please show me where it says in the Declaration, in the Constitution, or anywhere else in this country's basic documents and laws, that soldiers "gave," us our rights.

These documents actually suggest that we have certain "natural," rights as our inheritance--they're just there--and that, "governments," are instituted among people to protect these rights as is best possible.

I am sorry that you take such strong exception to the spectacle of Americans actually exercising their rights of free speech, wherever they came from. Me, I rather enjoy it.

 

[ghostdog2]

Please show me where it says in the Declaration, in the Constitution, or anywhere else in this country's basic documents and laws, that soldiers "gave," us our rights. 
..... "governments," are instituted among people to protect these rights as is best possible.

Neither the DOI, the Constitution nor the laws and documents of the U.S. are self-activating. The gov't "protect(s) these rights" , as you put it, by force of arms. "These rights" were brought into existence by force and reflect values worth dying for . Usually, that dying is done by members of the organized military and police forces. Thanks.
P.S. With deference to Sapper 6, I'm willing to say that "they" are indeed better than the virtual warriors of the internet. Real trumps virtual every time.

 

[michaeledward]

You'all sound like Jack Nicholson in his hubristic best character from 'A Few Good Men'; pompous, arrogant, and willing to break the rules to suit your own opinion.