An open letter to those protesting the war in Iraq:

[Kirk]

Originally posted by arnisador
Well, I agree about fighting the police and about destroying property, but Civil Disobedience has been very useful--the civil rights movements of the 1960s, India's independence, etc. There's something to be said for it.

So you credit the nation of islam more so than Martin Luther King
for the success of the civil rights movement?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Kirk
So you credit the nation of islam more so than Martin Luther King
for the success of the civil rights movement?

Kirk,

Kirk,

Kirk,
:shrug:

Arnisador, wrote that he agreed that fighting against the police was incorrect and that destruction of private property is was not productive.

He did say that, peaceful marching and getting the issues out into the public eye allows for discussion. This discussion allows for one to then make changes, with out physical violence being the method of execution.

Now for civil rights, in 1863, 140 years ago, President A. Lincoln's proclamation, in essence release the everyone from slavery, with in the USA. In the 1960's about one hundred years later the civil right movement allowed our society to make changes. And this week alone before the Supreme Court, they heard a case of U of Michigan and discrimination. The issue is still not resolved.

As for the Nation of Islam, do you know what Algebra is? Well this is the Name of a Muslim Mathematition. Al' Gebra. During the European Dark Ages, when most Christians were back trying to just farm dirt, the Nation of Islam maintained much knowledge in their colleges and schools that would have been lost otherwise. The Renaissance period happened after many learned from the Libraries of the Islam Nation. Then many of the hidden libraries were either translated our revised, and with the knowledge from the Mid-East the whole were filled in.


So, this is how I read it Kirk.

Just my take.
:asian:

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Kirk,

Kirk,

Kirk,
:shrug:

Arnisador, wrote that he agreed that fighting against the police was incorrect and that destruction of private property is was not productive.

He did say that, peaceful marching and getting the issues out into the public eye allows for discussion. This discussion allows for one to then make changes, with out physical violence being the method of execution.

Now for civil rights, in 1863, 140 years ago, President A. Lincoln's proclamation, in essence release the everyone from slavery, with in the USA. In the 1960's about one hundred years later the civil right movement allowed our society to make changes. And this week alone before the Supreme Court, they heard a case of U of Michigan and discrimination. The issue is still not resolved.

As for the Nation of Islam, do you know what Algebra is? Well this is the Name of a Muslim Mathematition. Al' Gebra. During the European Dark Ages, when most Christians were back trying to just farm dirt, the Nation of Islam maintained much knowledge in their colleges and schools that would have been lost otherwise. The Renaissance period happened after many learned from the Libraries of the Islam Nation. Then many of the hidden libraries were either translated our revised, and with the knowledge from the Mid-East the whole were filled in.


So, this is how I read it Kirk.

Just my take.
:asian:

The Nation Of Islam is a militant group formed in the Americas in
the late 50's. Founded by the "honorable" Elijah Mohammed, and
now led by Louis Farakhan.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
That's it by way of rebuttal? Nothing about facts, or interpretation, or underlying theory?

It is a statement of fact. If you do not understand the underlying logic, then just ask. On second thought, don't bother. I won't have the patience to educate you anyway.

 

[rmcrobertson]

The Nation of Islam is a bit older than the 1950s.

Could you just show me which facts got presented? I quite understand the logic, and if I'd claimed expertise in, say, small-unit tactics, it would make sense to demand that I "walk the ground." But I looked up the sites JN mentioned above, and except for Hackworth's they're either a) sites of stock-market touts, b) war games--I repeat, games--sites. Did I miss one?

I'd rather rely on, say, John Keegan.

Guys, perhaps if you'd show me some facts, make some arguments, explain some ideas, rather than throwing personal accusations around and making assumptions about patriotism (and when did you get to arbitrate that?), it'd be a little easier to discuss matters.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I think there is confusion between the 'Nation of Islam' the group, and the culture.

The culture has given us a wealth of information (the zero for one)

I dont know of any contributions of the group.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
The Nation of Islam is a bit older than the 1950s.

Could you just show me which facts got presented? I quite understand the logic, and if I'd claimed expertise in, say, small-unit tactics, it would make sense to demand that I "walk the ground." But I looked up the sites JN mentioned above, and except for Hackworth's they're either a) sites of stock-market touts, b) war games--I repeat, games--sites. Did I miss one?

I'd rather rely on, say, John Keegan.

Guys, perhaps if you'd show me some facts, make some arguments, explain some ideas, rather than throwing personal accusations around and making assumptions about patriotism (and when did you get to arbitrate that?), it'd be a little easier to discuss matters.

LMAO! Are you really this thick???? HEllo?? Anybody in there?

Did you even read www.strategypage.com? A game site? LMAO!! Do you even know how to read? Ever heard of Hooked-on-Phonics? Gosh! How old are you anyway?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

www.strategypage.com seems to have a decent amount of info, as well as detailed maps of movements on par with those I've seen in the past on battles.

http://www.strategypage.com/iraqwar/map.asp#map is pretty decent.

 

[rmcrobertson]

"Did you even read www.strategypage.com? A game site?"

Gee, I guess I got distracted by this statement on their homepage: "The very best in online wargaming and military news." I certainly recognize that they may have some good stuff--but I assume that they put "wargaming," first for a reason.

Well, sauce for the goose. Did you ever read anything by Keegan, who's taught a lot of military history? At Sandhurst?

I repeat: these sites have a lot of financial advice, a lot of gaming, a lot of "alternative history," stuff like Harry Turtledove's. Nothing wrong with that--but I'm dubious about their use as sources of historical fact.

Of course, I could easily be wrong. Could you show me where I am? Just illustrate, and leave off the insults?

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
[BJust illustrate, and leave off the insults? [/B]

Why, you certainly don't.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
The Nation of Islam is a bit older than the 1950s.

Picky, picky ... 1934.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk
The Nation Of Islam is a militant group formed in the Americas in the late 50's. Founded by the "honorable" Elijah Mohammed, and now led by Louis Farakhan.

I know this, but I wasn't thinking of them at all. They're extremists in my opinion. I was thinking of Rosa Parks and similar but better-organized acts of civil disobedience.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
The culture has given us a wealth of information (the zero for one)

As Rich Parsons indicated, they transmitted much information, and this is one of them. They did discover many things as well.

The Islamic nations have contributed a great deal over the years--less in recent centuries than in those before perhaps.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by arnisador
As Rich Parsons indicated, they transmitted much information, and this is one of them. They did discover many things as well.

The Islamic nations have contributed a great deal over the years--less in recent centuries than in those before perhaps.

No disagreement .. however the current numbering system is an
Arabic system, not a Muslim one.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by arnisador
I know this, but I wasn't thinking of them at all. They're extremists in my opinion. I was thinking of Rosa Parks and similar but better-organized acts of civil disobedience.

My bad, I haven't been getting enough sleep. Somehow I read
"violent civil disobedience" .. when you didn't say that at all.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk
No disagreement .. however the current numbering system is an Arabic system, not a Muslim one.

Although it is called Arabic, it's actually from India where their astronomers developed it near the end of the first millenium. It was misnamed because it came to Europe via the Arabs but that was merely a matter of transmission. By this time the distinction between Arabs and Muslims was less significant than you indicate, I think--as a practical matter all Arabs were Muslims by the time the system came to Europe (it was still making inroads into Northern Europe as late as the 1500s), though not conversely.

There is some evidence that this base ten positional notation actually began in Indochina, but this is less solid.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kirk
My bad, I haven't been getting enough sleep. Somehow I read
"violent civil disobedience" .. when you didn't say that at all.

Ah, OK--now we're on the same ground. I am not discussing violent civil disobedience--which is in the estreme open rebellion--but rather blocking traffic and peaceably being arrested, sitting in 'whites-only' restaurants and being arrested, etc. These were acts of some courage that were appropriate and beneficial, in my opinion.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by arnisador
Ah, OK--now we're on the same ground. I am not discussing violent civil disobedience--which is in the estreme open rebellion--but rather blocking traffic and peaceably being arrested, sitting in 'whites-only' restaurants and being arrested, etc. These were acts of some courage that were appropriate and beneficial, in my opinion.

Totally!

 

[Nightingale]

um... civil disobedience is just that... civil (think sit-ins and marches here and Martin Luther King Jr) violent disobedience is the complete opposite (think Los Angeles Rodney King Verdict Riots). No such thing as violent civil disobedience. its oxymoronic.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by nightingale8472
um... civil disobedience is just that... civil (think sit-ins and marches here and Martin Luther King Jr) violent disobedience is the complete opposite (think Los Angeles Rodney King Verdict Riots). No such thing as violent civil disobedience. its oxymoronic.

1. Of, relating to, or befitting a citizen or citizens: civil duties.

2. Of or relating to citizens and their interrelations with one another or with the state: civil society; the civil branches of government.

3. Of ordinary citizens or ordinary community life as distinguished from the military or the ecclesiastical: civil authorities.

4. Of or in accordance with organized society; civilized.

5. Sufficiently observing or befitting accepted social usages; not rude: a civil reply. See Synonyms at polite.

6.Being in accordance with or denoting legally recognized divisions of time: a civil year.

7.Law. Relating to the rights of private individuals and legal proceedings concerning these rights as distinguished from criminal, military, or international regulations or proceedings.