Helping Students Deal With Bullying

[hoshin1600]

I think you missed the points I was making...not 'tell the teacher''

i am not really against your own words or post. i read one of your links and it advised to tell the teacher and that was really the only advise it had.

And are you so sure that telling a teacher doesn't help?

yes i am so sure. been there done that. bullies are not stupid. they know how to make themselves look innocent and are smart enough to do things when the teacher is not around or outside of school.

posted from your own link
"This is one of the more sound pieces of advice. The victim is inherently being hurt (mentally or physically) by someone else and the nature of telling an adult will stop the problem. But here's the unwritten part of that sentence "...until that adult is no longer around".

I can tell you from very emotional personal experience that bullies often don't walk up and hit you in front of the "dinner ladies", "teachers" or any other helpers. They do it when you're walking between classes, or out on the field - or even worse on your way home. Once when I told the teachers I was getting hit on the way home (and kicked off my bike) the teacher's response was "we can't do anything about it, it's not happening on school property".
And then there's the knock-on effect. Let's say that it happens at lunch time at school, the victim tells a teacher. The teacher then comes over and speaks to the bully and the other children around. The bully denies it (of course, for someone whose general acts are physical violence, lying is a much more minor crime). The others around generally fall in to one of a few camps: the bully's friends, independents who don't want to become a victim or independents who simply don't want to become involved. So there'll be a round of "[the victim] started it" or "I didn't see anything, I was looking over there...". So now the bully got off scot-free and is angry that the victim got someone else involved - so yet more pain.

I'm not offering advice on the actual bullying but was making points about how a martial arts instructor ( or another) can help a child gain confidence in the martial arts class and hopefully outside as well.

that is fine as long as people understand confidence and self esteem could take years to see a change. by the time the self image improves the bulling has probably passed and Johnny is in college. so it is really not a solution to bulling but rather a method to improve long term well being.

 

[drop bear]

And what if he gets knocked out in 10 seconds what does that do for his confidence

Then he has suffered the worst of it and not died. Even that is a confidence boost.

 

[Tez3]

i am not really against your own words or post. i read one of your links and it advised to tell the teacher and that was really the only advise it had.

I'm thinking you didn't read either all or you read the wrong bit.

This is one of the more sound pieces of advice. The victim is inherently being hurt (mentally or physically) by someone else and the nature of telling an adult will stop the problem. But here's the unwritten part of that sentence "...until that adult is no longer around".

I can tell you from very emotional personal experience that bullies often don't walk up and hit you in front of the "dinner ladies", "teachers" or any other helpers. They do it when you're walking between classes, or out on the field - or even worse on your way home. Once when I told the teachers I was getting hit on the way home (and kicked off my bike) the teacher's response was "we can't do anything about it, it's not happening on school property".
And then there's the knock-on effect. Let's say that it happens at lunch time at school, the victim tells a teacher. The teacher then comes over and speaks to the bully and the other children around. The bully denies it (of course, for someone whose general acts are physical violence, lying is a much more minor crime). The others around generally fall in to one of a few camps: the bully's friends, independents who don't want to become a victim or independents who simply don't want to become involved. So there'll be a round of "[the victim] started it" or "I didn't see anything, I was looking over there...". So now the bully got off scot-free and is angry that the victim got someone else involved - so yet more pain.

I think you need to take that up with @andyjeffries

You seem to be focussed on something I'm not and determined to make an argument about telling teacher etc. That's not why I posted.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Anyone can knock anyone out especially if they're the same age and size and frankly 11 years old fighting in the ring is just sick and dangerous in my eyes

To have kids fight for entertainment would absolutely be sick. That's not what either of us are suggesting. A one-time fight to boost confidence. The thing is,
A: again, the chances of him getting knocked out by an 11 year old that was determined to be an equal match is slim to none. It's the same idea behind why you see more knockouts in heavier weight classes, except now they have the muscle strength not of a skinny guy, but of an 11 year old.
B: you're not building his confidence by having him win. You're giving him a goal of "you are capable of fighting. I believe you are capable, and I want you to prove it to me." In that context, as long as he gets in the ring and gets past the fear of fighting, it's a win, and his confidence will likely be higher by achieving his goal, and knowing he is able to fight if push comes to shove.

 

[hoshin1600]

from the posted link....
"The primary way it (martial arts) helps is that regularly practicing the martial arts will give them the self-confidence to not need it. Martial artists feel an inner confidence from knowing that they've spent many hours practicing each move, that it's powerful and swift. There may be better techniques (there's always more to learn, even at my current Taekwondo 7th Dan level) but there comes a point where you know enough to think "I may get hurt, but I KNOW they'll get hurt if they try it!".

And having that inward self-confidence projects outwards. The timid/shy persona that bullies are attracted to like sharks sensing blood in the water gradually fades away."

from my own experience i think this is misunderstood. again self image problems take a really long time to adjust and so does learning traditional martial arts, so by the time one gains profiency and confidence the bulling stopped long ago. also we all know there is no guarantee that martial arts classes will provide the ability to defend ones self.

so what happens when Johnny starts taking karate lessons and the bully finds out and makes a mockery about it and still beats up Johnny even worse because Johnny sucks at karate..???? how does Johnny feel then?

 

[Tez3]

from the posted link....
"The primary way it (martial arts) helps is that regularly practicing the martial arts will give them the self-confidence to not need it. Martial artists feel an inner confidence from knowing that they've spent many hours practicing each move, that it's powerful and swift. There may be better techniques (there's always more to learn, even at my current Taekwondo 7th Dan level) but there comes a point where you know enough to think "I may get hurt, but I KNOW they'll get hurt if they try it!".

And having that inward self-confidence projects outwards. The timid/shy persona that bullies are attracted to like sharks sensing blood in the water gradually fades away."

from my own experience i think this is misunderstood. again self image problems take a really long time to adjust and so does learning traditional martial arts, so by the time one gains profiency and confidence the bulling stopped long ago. also we all know there is no guarantee that martial arts classes will provide the ability to defend ones self.

so what happens when Johnny starts taking karate lessons and the bully finds out and makes a mockery about it and still beats up Johnny even worse because Johnny sucks at karate..???? how does Johnny feel then?

The person who wrote that is a poster here on MT, please address your comments to him. it's advice he has found works for him, you are talking about your experience but your experience is not everyone's. I work with children, I teach children martial arts and each situation is difference, sometimes it actually takes very little to change a person's view of themselves, sometimes it may take longer. Generalisation and picking arguments with me doesn't help the OP who so far has been given appalling advice and posts full of doom and gloom. I think your pessimistic view is just that.. pessimistic and by quite a long way actually wrong. I have worked with possibly thousands of children by now, and I do reject your doom laden and depressing point of view.

 

[hoshin1600]

The person who wrote that is a poster here on MT, please address your comments to him. it's advice he has found works for him, you are talking about your experience but your experience is not everyone's. I work with children, I teach children martial arts and each situation is difference, sometimes it actually takes very little to change a person's view of themselves, sometimes it may take longer. Generalisation and picking arguments with me doesn't help the OP who so far has been given appalling advice and posts full of doom and gloom. I think your pessimistic view is just that.. pessimistic and by quite a long way actually wrong. I have worked with possibly thousands of children by now, and I do reject your doom laden and depressing point of view.

to be clear i am not actually arguing with you, although it might appear that way. i was/ am more just using your links to juxtapost my own thoughts on the subject.
am i gloom and doom? so far it may appear that way..so fair enough.
i am far from done on making my point, i just happen to be at work so i cant make a long post....please bare with me.... i will try to get what i think does work.

 

[andyjeffries]

I didnt read everything but i read a few of the links and while they are good for "starting a conversation" as usual they really are not much help. They repeat "tell a teacher" it's become a phrase that drives me crazy because in most cases it doesn't help. It's a common among those who never went thru it to say things like that. It's like telling someone with depression to cheer up.

I see you say you didn't read anything, but my post explicitly says the "tell a teacher" strategy is a bad one.

 

[Steve]

His dad was the one who brought the issue to my attention and asked if I could think of ways to help him develop confidence.

Okay. that's actually a good thing. My recommendation would be to encourage the dad to take the kid to see a professional counselor. The counselor can help the kid talk things through and will hopefully be able to give the kid some tools to help him deal with the stress and pressure of being bullied. These generally include sessions with the kid alone and also family sessions with the dad and/or mom participating.

Then, hopefully, the dad will be able to talk to you more specifically about what you can do to help.

 

[andyjeffries]

Thanks for the sharing of my links and notification to the post @Tez3.

My post was definitely an opinion piece and an attempt to give me somewhere to refer parents to when they say "my child is being bullied, I've tried X but it didn't work" to explain why those things don't work. I'm not saying the article is perfect, nor that it will work for everyone - but I have experience of being bullied (and having turned it around) and of teaching children being bullied.

That being said, I'm not saying starting a martial art will see the bullying end a week later. It can take years and to be honest there's not much you can do to speed that up, as you rightly say changing can take years - however, from my experience the problem wasn't going away. The reason is the IMHO bullies are attracted to a certain mindset/personality (one that will bend to their will, while providing amusement) and there will always be bullies. So thinking that "ignore the problem long enough and it will go away" won't work.

As for specific advice for a martial arts teacher with a student with a bullying problem I would focus on the following things:

1) Ensure they are doing self defence training as part of the martial art (e.g. dealing with common situations, asking them "how does it normally start, how do people grab/push/hit/whatever you?")

2) Ensure they are hitting targets - power shields, mitts, whatever. They need to get used to feeling of delivering power. Seeing how hard the pad moves or the sound it makes when you hit it gives confidence in "maybe I'm not as weak as I thought".

3) They need to be sparring with some level of contact. Normally in our class we don't have people spar until after their first grading, but if I know a student is a bullying victim then I'll get them in earlier. This starts to teach them a)distance management and b)that being hit isn't as bad as you think, when you get used to it.

4) You definitely want to raise their confidence. This doesn't mean going over the top if they get stance right "Well done, little Johnny, you're almost a ninja, outstanding work! You'll be running the classes soon". But just if they strike well, or move/manage distance well, if they get a knock in sparring but carry on anyway then a little "well done mate" or "great job, keep it up" really helps.

Just to share a recent sad anecdote... My club has a year-long waiting list to join (we have high standards, are run in a professional manner, charge low fees, have a great reputation locally - not blowing my own trumpet just explaining why), but I had a parent join me and actually say the following (paraphrasing) "Little Johnny really needs to do a martial art soon, he's been bullied for a few years but over the past year he's really finding it embarrassing". My heart nearly broke - he'll have been finding it embarrassing always, that he's been so powerless and belittled he'd just started speaking to his parents about it and of course was embarrassed having to talk about it. Of course, after I spoke to him he jumped the queue and joined immediately. He's been with us for about a year and as far as his parents (and he) says, the bullying has stopped now.

It's not saying I don't think it would stop anyway (although it had been happening for years with no sign of stopping), nor that I'm the world's best teacher and I can always get results like this (a no-bullying-after-one-year-guarantee), but I think martial arts is the only reliable way of making it stop.

Schools have a zero tolerance policy to violence and I understand that. My own son had a fight with someone at school when he was about 8-9. School threatened to suspend both children. I spoke them and said the following. My son was attacked while in your care, he acted within the law using self-defence (he was very restrained and did the minimum needed to stop the attack and the other boy and witnesses confirmed that) and therefore you have failed in your duty of care towards him. If you compound that now by suspending him along with the attacker, then we'll have no choice but to get the police involved and your governing body and the local council. Suffice to say, the other boy was punished and my son had no punishment.

Most organisations have policies, but law takes precedence and knowing your rights under the law can help guide these conversations.

 

[Tez3]

Thank you so much Andy for responding, I do appreciate it. My links weren't for the advice given to those being bullied in respect of 'tell the teacher', but to help the OP with some advice of helping his student gain confidence. The advice wasn't about the actual bullying but for things the OP could do to help.
Hoshin you have picked out the one thing that bothers you but frankly is irrelevant in what I saying. The OP is looking for things he can do to make his student more confident and raising his self esteem, things that are within a martial arts instructor's experience and remit. An instructor telling a student to tell the teacher, even if it were good advice, isn't what the OP was asking for. He wants strategies for teaching martial arts that will work to raise the confidence of a martial arts student first and foremost. We have to be careful as instructors we don't take on things that are outside our zone of expertise. We can however do our best to make sure our students have confidence in their martial arts and as we know that does have knock on effects outside the dojo/class.

 

[Tez3]

please bare with me

that's a little too personal for me!

 

[Danny T]

Coping with bullying is much more than being able to fight back. I agree with Steve on a counselor. Being bullied once or twice is one thing but to be constantly and now going to another school and it happens there as well I believe there are some underlying issues particular to the individual we are not aware of.
As to having the confidence to actually defend one's self in my experience the number one thing I have found is the persons fear of being hit and not knowing what to do. So we start them off by giving them some very basic defensive structures and how to cover and then work on what we call 'stand your ground' drills. We slowly and lightly punch at the person who can't move their feet but can cover, slip, bob, & parry. After several sessions they actually begin to grow confident they can prevent being hit. As they become more comfortable we increase the speed and power of the strikes. During this period we have them punching on others doing the same drill and their confidence to be able to strike as well as the operatant conditioning of being struck and defending builds confidence in their abilities to be struck and still fight back. It doesn't take long when done at the level the student can handle mentally and physically to get them to the point they see the punches coming at them and them can start striking back. That is when their confidence in being able to defend themselves soars.

 

[Tez3]

Coping with bullying is much more than being able to fight back

it certainly is I agree which is why I think we have to just do what we are good at and not try to be counsellors and psychologists. We need to do our part in teaching martial arts so students become more confident in themselves and to raise their self esteem. To be honest doing any sport or activity and seeing yourself make progress, being praised for doing well when you know you are will do this but as we do martial arts, I'll stick to just that. Doing martial arts is about more than defending yourself, for one thing it can be a place where there is no bullying, where you are accepted just as a student not a victim, where you have the possibility of doing something well under good instruction. Just that will help a person who is bullied,( or who has been a victim of any crime) we shouldn't try to do more than we are qualified to do but do what we do well and it will have some effect. it will be part of the solution not the whole solution.

 

[Danny T]

Doing martial arts is about more than defending yourself, for one thing it can be a place where there is no bullying, where you are accepted just as a student not a victim, where you have the possibility of doing something well under good instruction. Just that will help a person who is bullied,( or who has been a victim of any crime) we shouldn't try to do more than we are qualified to do but do what we do well and it will have some effect. it will be part of the solution not the whole solution.

^^^^^^
THIS!!! I knew I liked you for more than your wit. Thank you ma'am.

 

[hoshin1600]

Andy, thank you for your post and your blog post. i agree with what you have said.

Tez, again i am not in disagreement with you however

Hoshin you have picked out the one thing that bothers you but frankly is irrelevant in what I saying. The OP is looking for things he can do to make his student more confident and raising his self esteem,

at its core bullying is a result of low self esteem in many cases. low self esteem is really a psychology issue more than a violence issue. ( violence is only one manifistation) when the OP says that the parent asked the instructor on how to help with Johnnys self esteem i feel this is misdirected. as martial artists ( more here in America) we have been marketing this "confidence and self esteem" and frankly we have no idea how to facilitate those kind of results this is more the work for therapists rather than a martial arts school. if Jane had low self esteem and was suffering from bulimia we would not be asking her cheer leading coach on what to do.
as MA instructors we profess to promote self esteem but we dont know how to facilitate the results. we leave those results to chance. ( they do often happen but happen organiclly and not by design) what i am saying is stop marketing this phrase unless you ( general you ) or someone on staff is a therapist or have consulted one and have incorporated these best practices into your curriculum. i would like to see more professionalism in the instruction.

 

[Steve]

One good thing is that in Canada the family should be able to get this child some qualified assistance.

There have been some solid points made in this thread. The one thing I really appreciate is the nod to professional qualified assistance.

I'm glad to see that even tez3 is on board with this as in past threads she has made some pretty harsh comments about the value of seeing a therapist or counselor.

 

[Tez3]

frankly we have no idea how to facilitate those kind of results

Speak for yourself.

as MA instructors we profess to promote self esteem but we dont know how to facilitate the results. we leave those results to chance

Do we? Perhaps some you know do but most I know don't. They do actually know how to promote it because frankly it's not rocket science. We teach our own children after all, at least most of us do. It's far simpler than you think. It means treating people with respect, kindness and in a civilised manner. You accept people for who and what they are, you don't bully, hector or belittle them, you treat them as you would want to be treated. This goes a long way to building up how people think about themselves. When someone sees others treating them with respect they first wonder why but often as other's opinions mean more than their own they will accept that if they are being treated that way they must be worth it ( the obverse is true, treat someone badly enough for long enough they will think they are worthless, often found in domestic abuse). Thinking they are worthwhile becomes their own thoughts after a while.

I think in some societies there is a dependence on 'counselling' and therapy, that you need to be a therapist to be able to make people feel better. for mental health issues one needs professional help but it doesn't mean that we have to stand back and think our contribution is pointless. People with 'low self esteem' often feel worthless, it's is very easy for us if we are decent people to treat them as they should be treated... as valued students worth teaching and being in class with. Raised self esteem comes from that, it's not chance and it's not quantifiable, we do know however it happens when we teach properly.

No, I've never had low self esteem nor lack of confidence, quite simply because of the way I was brought up.

Martial arts instructors don't have to do anything 'special' to raise self esteem, just what we should be doing anyway. It's not a specialist subject, it's treating people properly. For most people with low self esteem they can't be 'given' it but will discover it for themselves by being treated as a worthwhile human being and by succeeding in projects such as learning martial arts.

 

[Tez3]

If you look here... Top Ten Facts about Low Self Esteem it dispels some myths about self esteem, including the one about bullying coming from people with low self esteem. Simply telling people they are 'great' etc doesn't work, but how you treat people does.

"Contrary to popular opinion, people with low self-esteem tend to be very sure of themselves. That's the problem. This manifests in their conviction that they are worthless or inadequate. As you will know if you have ever tried to argue with someone who puts themselves down continually, it is very hard to do! When someone with low self esteem starts to become less sure of their own opinion of themselves and therefore begins to assess counter evidence regarding their worthlessness, their self image begins to become more healthy. At first the "ugly" duckling was certain it was a failed duck but that misdirected certainty had to loosen before its true life direction could become clear.

Good self esteem is actually a by-product of living in a healthy way. So rather than trying to raise it directly it's easier to focus elsewhere (such on what a person does) and let self esteem rise as a happy side effect of a change in living. "

"For anyone to be psychologically and physically healthy then core needs have to be fulfilled. Being clear about what you need and making efforts to meet those needs constructively means you'll naturally have better self esteem as a by-product of living well.

This is useful list of basic human needs:

1. The need to give and receive attention
2. The need to look after your body.
3. The need for meaning, purpose and goals.
4. The need for a connection to something greater than ourselves
5. The need for creativity and stimulation
6. The need for intimacy and connection to others.
7. The need for a sense of control
8. The need for a sense of status and recognition from others.
9. The need for a sense of safety and security.

Of course, it is likely that at any one time, one or more of these may be slightly lacking in your life, without dire consequences. However, in the long-term, they must all be catered for one way or another."

As martial arts instructors we can certainly help with several of those.

 

[hoshin1600]

Martial arts instructors don't have to do anything 'special' to raise self esteem, just what we should be doing anyway. It's not a specialist subject, it's treating people properly.

I think in some societies there is a dependence on 'counselling' and therapy,

Tez i really respect you and i will admit not every case needs counselling and your point of view is valid ... but in many cases there is a root cause for low self esteem. it could be poor parenting, poor teachers, sexual or physical abuse, ADD or some other underlying cause. Oprah had low self esteem and weight issues. she couldnt address the weight until she addressed the psychological issues of her sexual abuse. in MA classes just treating the students with respect will not help in these cases.
again Tez i respect you so i also would expect more from you on these issues. lets say you had a class of 100 girls. how many of those girls may have been subject to sexual abuse. they may suffer from low self esteem. you cant tell me that going to a MA class and the teacher talking nice to them and making them feel welcome is going to be adequate.
( i will give a disclaimer here that i am completely clueless when it comes to girls and this issue. my point of view is only based on boys)

my litmus test for MA instructors who promote their school with the marketing of "building self esteeem" is ..
Name 5 policies or curriculum strategies that you implemented to specifically address self confidence and esteem.
i hold my self at a higher standard , and i would like to see others do the same on these issues.