Having your hands up. Self defence.

[drop bear]

What! But surely your standard mma sparring practice works universally for all situations because everyone you could ever need to fight does so by the rules and limitations of mma sparring?

How could we possibly need different methods for different situations?!

You need different methods for different situations in mma sparring as well.

You get rushed. You get caught off guard and you eat flurries.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes on the latter for sure. It is amazing what cocaine can do to rationally. As I'm sure that who have trained with, will doubt tell for a fleeting moment, it is damn scary. They can strike out and not even realise any drop out. Managed to walk one out once, at the front door, the mood of the guy just switched to red mist in a heartbeat. Thankfully he was talked down by the front door team. Yeah, an engagement would have been the result with collateral damage. Got admit that even I felt a bit apprensive. Guy had roid muscles.

Ugh - 'roid muscles backed by coke. We all know strength matters, as does stamina, as does pain tolerance - to my knowledge, cocaine affects all three in a way that doesn't go in (in this case) your favor. Glad your team was able to avoid that.

 

[Transk53]

Ugh - 'roid muscles backed by coke. We all know strength matters, as does stamina, as does pain tolerance - to my knowledge, cocaine affects all three in a way that doesn't go in (in this case) your favor. Glad your team was able to avoid that.

Yes and thanks. In clubland, par for the course unfortunately.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes and thanks. In clubland, par for the course unfortunately.

I have heard similar from a friend who worked that circuit for a while, as well as the senior brown belt under my first instructor in NGA (who worked at a strip club as a bouncer).

 

[FriedRice]

I

1) Many of the street fight or altercation videos I see people have their hands down and get really close with verbal words and heat before the first punch comes. I rarely see hands up unless they are ready to rumble - arranged fight - or one goes into a pure fighting stance - fists up and moves in and so the other matches the stance.

This is why the Philly Shell and/or Mayweather's Crab Defense stance works really well while maintaining distance. Lead arm is down and folded like an "L" with lead hand at opposite side of hips.....rear hand is in front of face and moving with speech.....like people who talks with their hands.

You just have to use footwork to keep distance and tell the fool to "talk to me from right there" as he tries to get chest to chest while you move away with footwork. This is for, of course, when you don't want to fight but also, don't want to back down and run/walk away, neither.

 

[crazydiamond]

This is why the Philly Shell and/or Mayweather's Crab Defense stance works really well while maintaining distance. Lead arm is down and folded like an "L" with lead hand at opposite side of hips.....rear hand is in front of face and moving with speech.....like people who talks with their hands.

You just have to use footwork to keep distance and tell the fool to "talk to me from right there" as he tries to get chest to chest while you move away with footwork. This is for, of course, when you don't want to fight but also, don't want to back down and run/walk away, neither.

This stance in a pending altercation or threat?

As oppose to this stance ?

 

[FriedRice]

This stance in a pending altercation or threat?

As oppose to this stance ?

I teach people to do both and train both as they both applies on the street and in the ring/cage....but the problem with the....hands up stance (right away)...."hey look, I don't want to fight...calm down bro..." is that, many to most real life altercations don't start out with some dude acting like he's going to attack and rape you....like in a movie or a Self Defense class. Usually it's toughguy, chest puffing or figuring **** out.....some cussing, maybe screaming...but then it ends.

Let's say some dude follows me after a road rage incident....regardless of who's fault it was....I stop my car and get out to see whats up....you know, because I'm gamey (especially when I was younger)....it still doesn't mean that this 2nd stance makes sense right away....because it's usually just like...."what? whatdoyouwant?" ...."you gonna do something?".... putting the hands up means you want to fight in this situation to bystanders and CCTV.... And I never fought anyone, physically, from such incidents.

Or somebody bumps into you at a bar...you say "watch it..."...he turns and say "whatsup P****?"....and flexes....do you go hands up right away? People around you will be like...you're weird.....the other guy may be like..."WTF calm down buddy"...so now....do you still keep your hands up like this?

Like with Bouncers...plenty of dumb drunks steps up to them and often....but do Bouncers immediately put their hands up? That's just escalation....most of the time it's just talking to a drunk fool.....but in the Philly Shell, you can talk while being in great defensive AND offensive position.

 

[Buka]

I always use a version of that first stance shown above as a fence.

It appears casual or as if you're only mildly interested or bored. Or like you're mulling over what they're saying. You can support your chin, rub your face or talk with your hands (the top hand) like this. Which gets their eyes used to movement of that hand.

Look where the top hand is in relation to their face (if they're standing in front of you, no doubt with shenanigans on their mind) I love having my hand that close to a man's face when he doesn't realize it. I find it quite comforting.

If you have to use that hand you can shove against them as you step back (if you want distance) or step in with your forward foot to create more of a shove, strike etc. Or hook punch, grab whatever. You can work anything from there.

I used that stance throughout my career as a cop, a bouncer and as a city guy. Never once did it fail me. Sure got me out of a lot of jams.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I always use a version of that first stance shown above as a fence.

It appears casual or as if you're only mildly interested or bored. Or like you're mulling over what they're saying. You can support your chin, rub your face or talk with your hands (the top hand) like this. Which gets their eyes used to movement of that hand.

Look where the top hand is in relation to their face (if they're standing in front of you, no doubt with shenanigans on their mind) I love having my hand that close to a man's face when he doesn't realize it. I find it quite comforting.

If you have to use that hand you can shove against them as you step back (if you want distance) or step in with your forward foot to create more of a shove, strike etc. Or hook punch, grab whatever. You can work anything from there.

I used that stance throughout my career as a cop, a bouncer and as a city guy. Never once did it fail me. Sure got me out of a lot of jams.

These kinds of postures/stances are a great way to get into various defensive hand positions (guards and fences, as I'm seeing them called) without looking combative. All of them get one or both hands in a position to guard the head. Standard fighting stances are too easily recognized, and can provoke those ready to be provoked.

 

[JowGaWolf]

How does that stance work against someone who comes in to do a take down?

 

[Transk53]

How does that stance work against someone who comes in to do a take down?

Sheer theatrics' I would think.

 

[Buka]

< Prev

How does that stance work against someone who comes in to do a take down?

Same way, really, if you train take down defense, you sprawl. Either arm arm will go under the chin, depending on the circumstance. You might slap the top hand down on his back as you kick your legs back and move the bottom arm across the neck, You might use the top hand/arm to push a little to the side if you're going for the back. You might kick you legs into the sprawl as the top hand goes for a grab to the waist (his belt, pants top, or part of the shirt/jacket/whatever) for control, you might rake the face in an uppercut sort of move as you scramble for position. It kind of depends. There's a whole bootload of places to go. You might use the bottom arm to influence his back as you knee strike, if you have really good knee strikes from that position I, unfortunately, do not.

But like anything else, you adapt and go from there.

 

[FriedRice]

How does that stance work against someone who comes in to do a take down?

You missed the point, but you can just sprawl from the Philly Shell.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You missed the point, but you can just sprawl from the Philly Shell.

How did I miss the point when I'm asking someone to explain something I don't use? Not everyone on here asks questions to be a butt. I'm asking because I don't know and I'm curious with how the stance works against a takedown.

 

[Paul_D]

OK. This has come up again apparently nobody shapes up in a self defence situation.
So this dosent happen.

Can someone please explain to me why you wouldn't get your hands up in a self defence?

Because it seems insane that you would train with your hands up. For the pretty much universal reason of not getting your head smashed in. And then throw it out the window.

As there is no damage to vehicle, I am assuming this is not an accident and the two men have gotten out of their car to swap insurance information, which has then led to violence. Instead it looks as though they have had a disagreement, and have willingly gotten out of their car to have a road rage argument which has descended into a fight.

I don't see how getting out of your car to have a road rage argument which then ends up in a fight is self defence.

This is a fight, so i would expect people to square off in a fighting stance, because that is what they are doing, willingly engaging in a street fight.

In self defence, if you study the rituals of violence( the methods used by career criminals) muggers and rapist do not square off in a fighting stance when mugging or raping people.

Again it would appear we are confusing two idiots fighting in the street with self defence.

If you are taken money out of a cash machine, and someone approaches and asks for the time, you don't put your hands up in a fighting stance in case they are a mugger. you woudl however use the fence to protect your personal space (so you can't be sucker punched) and if they encroached into that personal space then you know their intentions are less than honourable, and would be justified (at least under UK law) in striking pre-emptively in order to defend yourself.

Squaring off in a fighting stance and inviting the other person to engage in a fight is a street fight. Fighting in the street is illegal, and has nothing to do with self defence.

So, the reason you don't put your hands up in boxing guard is becasue self defence (being mugged, assualted, raped) doesn't not resemble a fight. If you decide to fight, then yes you would put your hands up, but that isn't self defence.

 

[drop bear]

As there is no damage to vehicle, I am assuming this is not an accident and the two men have gotten out of their car to swap insurance information, which has then led to violence. Instead it looks as though they have had a disagreement, and have willingly gotten out of their car to have a road rage argument which has descended into a fight.

I don't see how getting out of your car to have a road rage argument which then ends up in a fight is self defence.

This is a fight, so i would expect people to square off in a fighting stance, because that is what they are doing, willingly engaging in a street fight.

In self defence, if you study the rituals of violence( the methods used by career criminals) muggers and rapist do not square off in a fighting stance when mugging or raping people.

Again it would appear we are confusing two idiots fighting in the street with self defence.

If you are taken money out of a cash machine, and someone approaches and asks for the time, you don't put your hands up in a fighting stance in case they are a mugger. you woudl however use the fence to protect your personal space (so you can't be sucker punched) and if they encroached into that personal space then you know their intentions are less than honourable, and would be justified (at least under UK law) in striking pre-emptively in order to defend yourself.

Squaring off in a fighting stance and inviting the other person to engage in a fight is a street fight. Fighting in the street is illegal, and has nothing to do with self defence.

So, the reason you don't put your hands up in boxing guard is becasue self defence (being mugged, assualted, raped) doesn't not resemble a fight. If you decide to fight, then yes you would put your hands up, but that isn't self defence.

OK. But if I make up a scenario where you are being mugged and eat a shot you then counter strike, create space and put your guard up. Then you do self defence with your guard up. If he comes forwards then you are defending yourself.

You may study the rituals of violence but if you don't study the patterns of assault then you are not defending yourself properly. Muggers and rapists may not put their guard up. But that does not give them an advantage if you do.

Self defence does not look like two trained fighters Because most people are idiots.

 

[Paul_D]

But that does not give them an advantage if you do.

But if you put your hands up in a fighting guard (just in case they are a mugger) every time a stranger approaches you to ask the time, then that send out the wrong message, and can led to more problem than it solves.

 

[drop bear]

But if you put your hands up in a fighting guard (just in case they are a mugger) every time a stranger approaches you to ask the time, then that send out the wrong message, and can led to more problem than it solves.

Good point. Don't do that then.

 

[Paul_D]

Of course if blows are being exchanged, yes you would put your hands up to protect yourself from begin hit But I think when people suggest you don't put them up (in a fighting stance) for SD, they are referring to what takes place before blows you start striking. (as opposed to two poepel fighting where they will have their hands up in guard and be circling/bobbing/weaving prior to the exchange of blows).

Ideally, once you attack, you want a one way stream of attacks in his direction until the threat is neutralised, but things don't always go according to plan, so you need to some default position to protect yourself.

 

[Buka]

I think all you guys are right. (I know, that's no fun) If two people square off to fight in the street, it's the same foolish scenario of our youth - "You and me, after school, behind the grocery store."