Has MMA done harm to martial arts

[Hagakure]

I didn't go all the way back to your original post, but I wanted to say that the few MMA fighters I know, and pretty much every Muy Thai guy I know does condition their whole shin for contact. In a street situation the person will be shocked or give at least some hesitation in most situations from a shin attack, but if you are training for that and expect pain then the advantage will be little to none. I myself after playing {gasp} soccer (yes, in America ) for over 20 years have very little in the way of nerves left in my shins, and I can say that when I've trained leg kicks the impact on me is much different than most people I've trained with.

I think the key is the difference between self defense and fighting a trained prize fighter.

I reckon that's the key difference in all of this in some regards. I train to beat the average guy on the street (whatever that is), which I'm guessing/hoping isn't a trained prize fighter. Call it limited, it's what I train for. The idiot in a club, the malcontent on the street, not a 200 pound oiled and bronzed punching and grappling machine. Tez, thought you'd like that.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I reckon that's the key difference in all of this in some regards. I train to beat the average guy on the street (whatever that is), which I'm guessing/hoping isn't a trained prize fighter. Call it limited, it's what I train for. The idiot in a club, the malcontent on the street, not a 200 pound oiled and bronzed punching and grappling machine. Tez, thought you'd like that.

Same here.
I practise ninpo because I enjoy it. That's also why I practised jiu-jitsu in the past. Being the best 'fighter' is not that important for me, and I don't do full contact sparring.

So while my martial arts experience allows me to 'beat the average guy on the street', I realize that it takes much, much longer to become proficient enough in ninpo to take on an experienced fighter. And even then, I am not sure that 20 years of ninpo is a match for 20 years of MMA experience.

Anywho... I don't think MMA has done any damage to martial arts. It has brought mainstream attention to all-round fighting, and it has disolved the notion that there is such a thing as 'the best fighting art' or the idea that a single style is all you need to know to fight.
Now if only Eurosport started airing MMA over here...

 

[mook jong man]

I didn't go all the way back to your original post, but I wanted to say that the few MMA fighters I know, and pretty much every Muy Thai guy I know does condition their whole shin for contact. In a street situation the person will be shocked or give at least some hesitation in most situations from a shin attack, but if you are training for that and expect pain then the advantage will be little to none. I myself after playing {gasp} soccer (yes, in America ) for over 20 years have very little in the way of nerves left in my shins, and I can say that when I've trained leg kicks the impact on me is much different than most people I've trained with.

I think the key is the difference between self defense and fighting a trained prize fighter.

Thats good , but the attack is not done in isolation it is used to bridge the gap , so that we can get into close range or stop an advancing leg , and then you will be facing chain punches that will be coming down your center line at the rate of 6 or 7 a second .

Do not under estimate the power of these attacks , Wing Chun only contains a small repertoire of moves but they are practiced constantly and are usually done very well.

 

[Steve]

Thats good , but the attack is not done in isolation it is used to bridge the gap , so that we can get into close range or stop an advancing leg , and then you will be facing chain punches that will be coming down your center line at the rate of 6 or 7 a second .

Do not under estimate the power of these attacks , Wing Chun only contains a small repertoire of moves but they are practiced constantly and are usually done very well.

Please don't turn this into an MMA vs WC thread. I get it. Wing Chun is awesome. I saw the Fight Quest episode. I believe you. Deadly.

Getting back to the original point here, kicks to the knee and shin are legal in MMA, so if they are a big part of the WC arsenal, then they would remain so in MMA. Also, chain punching is, by what I've been told here and elsewhere, a cumulative thing. Right? One punch may not get you, but 6 or 7 per second will. At least that's the theory. Right? So, chain punching isn't against the rules of any MMA promotion I'm aware of.

So, at least in this case, MMA isn't bad for Wing Chun that I can tell.

 

[mook jong man]

Please don't turn this into an MMA vs WC thread. I get it. Wing Chun is awesome. I saw the Fight Quest episode. I believe you. Deadly.

Getting back to the original point here, kicks to the knee and shin are legal in MMA, so if they are a big part of the WC arsenal, then they would remain so in MMA. Also, chain punching is, by what I've been told here and elsewhere, a cumulative thing. Right? One punch may not get you, but 6 or 7 per second will. At least that's the theory. Right? So, chain punching isn't against the rules of any MMA promotion I'm aware of.

So, at least in this case, MMA isn't bad for Wing Chun that I can tell.

I am not saying its awesome or deadly just don't underestimate it until you have felt it from somebody who knows what they are doing.
Chain punching might not be against the rules , but what about trapping ? Would the judges even know what trapping was if they saw it ?

 

[Aiki Lee]

So while my martial arts experience allows me to 'beat the average guy on the street', I realize that it takes much, much longer to become proficient enough in ninpo to take on an experienced fighter. And even then, I am not sure that 20 years of ninpo is a match for 20 years of MMA experience.

If you train against realistic attack then there shouldn't be anything you can't handle, so long as your opponent is not better than you that is. I think we can all agree on the difficulty of fighting a skilled opponent, but remember even battles between really skilled martial artists don't last more than a few seconds.

20 years of ninpo, MMA, karate, JKD, TKD or whatever...20 years of anything makes you a dangerous person (if you train hard enough) and I wouldn't take any of them lightly.

 

[LordOfWu]

Thats good , but the attack is not done in isolation it is used to bridge the gap , so that we can get into close range or stop an advancing leg , and then you will be facing chain punches that will be coming down your center line at the rate of 6 or 7 a second .

Do not under estimate the power of these attacks , Wing Chun only contains a small repertoire of moves but they are practiced constantly and are usually done very well.

I would say at this point that WC practitioners should then have a good handle on that aspect of MMA then, since leg kicks are usually something used over time or to lead to another technique. That's one of the cool aspects of MMA, and it goes right along with Bruce Lee's philosophy, take out of any and all arts the techniques and movements that are best for you.

For a last bit of clarification, leg kicks of any kind and chain punchs, and trapping (as I understand it, which shouldn't encompass grabbing the glove ro any other clothing) would be acceptable in an MMA match. I would only guess that such techniques have not been proven as effective (in MMA!) as the grappling and muy thai techniques more commonly used in MMA. Not saying they are not effective, but in cage, I haven't seen them done as effectively.

 

[Steve]

I am not saying its awesome or deadly just don't underestimate it until you have felt it from somebody who knows what they are doing.
Chain punching might not be against the rules , but what about trapping ? Would the judges even know what trapping was if they saw it ?

Trapping isn't against the rules, either. I'd be interested in seeing if it works. I've heard many comparisons to BJJ groundwork (particularly from guard) and the skills/techniques for trapping. The best grapplers will, when on the bottom, never stay flat. Rather, their head is up off the mat, their shoulders and hips are moving, and they're tying up their opponents' arms and head and controlling them.

Come on, dude. Why are you trying to make this about Wing Chun? Instead of persisting in this vein, help me understand how MMA is a threat to Wing Chun, as that's the thrust of this thread.

 

[Tez3]

MMA isn't a threat to any art, people go for styles they feel are suited to them, for example I'm not nearly supple enough for Capoiera so MMA hasn't taken me away from that. In karate I've heard people say that if you are a big chap go for Shotokan, if you are smaller go for Wado Ryu as each suits these people. people who feel Whin Chun is suited to them will go for it. I've got into MMA because as I got older I was slowing in standup and I found the grappling part to be easier ( well relatively lol) and I didn't have to do so much stand up.
The point about MMA is the first word MIXED, thats where the story lies. It's different styles mixed together so you can compete in the ring/cage/mats.
I'm going to go and have a nice cup of tea now, I expect you chaps to have stopped arguing about MMA versus anything and start a nice thread about how much we love martial arts before I get back!

 

[Nolerama]

I don't think it's generally harm, but in terms of One vs. One technique, I think MMA has soured some faces.

It's all about functionality. Plain and simple. Function before form.

And that might ruffle some feathers. It's not necessarily harm. However, taking a WC class a few times, a tai chi class in college, and a number of other arts in the past, I'm happy that it's not a terrible crime to call certain techniques by other names. Some of those other classes had me scolded, corrected, and "educated" on the history/reason for said tech.

MMA might also ruffle a few feathers to other MA instructors who teach technique, but can't use that technique in sparring/fighting situations to their best advantage, and end up losing in a MMA setting. That's a fault with the practitioner, not the art.

As far as I can see, MMA offers truth on the mat/ring/cage, and technique that will work for for that particular practitioner, his or her body type, at that particular time.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

MMA might also ruffle a few feathers to other MA instructors who teach technique, but can't use that technique in sparring/fighting situations to their best advantage, and end up losing in a MMA setting. That's a fault with the practitioner, not the art.

I think that this is where the largest amount of friction developes between MMA and TMA. I think to a great extent, you have an oranges to tangerines comparison.

If you train in a TMA, you will (hopefully) learn techniques that will enable you to survive a violent attack against a mugger/kidnapper/rapist/general bad guy. You get into good enough shape to execute these techniques without pulling anything and without falling on your face

Some take it a step further and engage in tournaments. These are often point tournaments and do not allow a full range of grappling, or are limited to grappling only.

Then there are guys and gals who train for MMA competition. MMA competition has a broader rule set than a Karate or Judo tournament, and often the competitors train more like modern athletes than the typical martial artist does.

Needless to say, if your world is the first or second category, unless you are simply an awesome fighter who can easily adapt and who trains very, very hard, you'll be at a severe disadvantage when stepping into an MMA competition. You'll be unused to the rule set, probably not conditioned in the same way as your competition, and you will likely not be familiar with many techniques outside of those you know in your core art.

Needless to say, when such a person competes and loses, it adds fuel to the MMA beats TMA arguement. I don't believe that either beats either; there is a lot of cross over, but an MMA tournament is very different than what one trains for in a TMA dojo. Could a TMA practitioner become competative in MMA? Sure. But learn the rule set, familiarize yourself with the techniques that you'll face, and train to counter them. That and be prepared to eat some humble pie while you bring yourself up to speed..... just as you would when you start a brand new art and are a beginner. MMA is a very different animal than the dojo setting.

Kind of like the difference between the Baja and a police chase. Both involve cars, but the Baja will demand a very different skill set than a police chase. The Baja will require being able to drive in differing terrain, off of pavement, and you will be constantly performing at your best level to win. A police chase is comparatively short and requires the officer to apprehend his opponent, not just out drive them. The officer must do so without endangering civilians and does not have the opportunity to choose the circumstances of the chase and may be getting shot at.

Could a police officer take his cruiser to the baja and win? No. The car wouldn't survive. Does that make the Baja driver inherently better than the police officer? No. They each have different goals and objectives, and each is best at what they do.

Anyway, hows that for a long winded analogy?

Daniel

 

[searcher]

Tez3 is right, MMA is a venue for testing your skillset against somebody else with a different skillset.

Yes, it could be said that it is evolving into a seperate art. But nobody has called it such, as far as I know. Is there a problem with that? No, not really. It has really given way to less people saying they have created a new style and they say they train/teach MMA, not JoeBob's Kakungdo.


I am not sure how this thread turned into a versus, but that is not the intent of the OP. We are all sorry if a particular style has not fared well in the MMA world. Find out why and fix it.


Back on topic please.

 

[bowser666]

I am not sure how this thread turned into a versus, but that is not the intent of the OP. We are all sorry if a particular style has not fared well in the MMA world. Find out why and fix it.


Back on topic please.

This is the point that people keep missing. Alot of TMA styles are not meant for Sport Fighting. They are meant for self defense and for survival in the real world. Where there is no octagon, or referee , or rules.............

It is like trying to force a round shape into a square shaped hole. It doesn't work and wasn't meant to be. I honestly don't know why this vs debate continues to come out in alot of threads. Keep beating the dead horse I suppose...................

 

[MJS]

Are you allowed to wear shoes in MMA ?
What type of shoes are they ?
And if you wear shoes are you still allowed to kick with the heel ?

Actually, in the recent events, unless I'm missing it, I think everyone may be barefoot, however, in UFC 6 we saw Tank wearing wrestling shoes, as well as Dan Severn.

As for the heel kicks...I'm assuming that you're talking about what Royce used to do when he had people in his guard? If so, I havent seen that much anymore.

 

[mook jong man]

Trapping isn't against the rules, either. I'd be interested in seeing if it works. I've heard many comparisons to BJJ groundwork (particularly from guard) and the skills/techniques for trapping. The best grapplers will, when on the bottom, never stay flat. Rather, their head is up off the mat, their shoulders and hips are moving, and they're tying up their opponents' arms and head and controlling them.

Come on, dude. Why are you trying to make this about Wing Chun? Instead of persisting in this vein, help me understand how MMA is a threat to Wing Chun, as that's the thrust of this thread.

I don't think it is a threat to it , the thing is that Wing Chun attracts a whole different crowd of people in my experience .

They are people that just want to train their 3 nights a week or what ever for self defence and have no interest whatsoever in competition they also want to have a physical and intellectual pursuit that they can enjoy till they are old and grey .

They also would probably not be at all interested in the gruelling conditioning that would be needed to compete in MMA competitions , they just want to have enough fitness to protect themself and their family in the street.

The other type of people which are usually young athletic males who might be slightly aggressive tend not to be attracted to Wing Chun because we stand funny and use these funny little straight punches it just does not look cool in their mind .

In my experience they also find the repetitive and to them tedious nature of the training boring and they tend to leave very quickly and go to other arts that emphasise a competitive aspect such as Muay Thai , Boxing , Grappling ,etc .

Hence due to the reasons I outlined above we would have a very small pool of young athletic talent to choose from to represent us properly in MMA compared to other styles who are just brimming with young athletic talent.

Hopefully in the future this will change , as I hear that in England there is a Sifu named Alan Orr who is training his Wing Chun men specifically for MMA competition , I believe they are called the Iron Wolves so finally we might be able to have well trained people that can represent the system properly in the cage .

So in closing no I don't think MMA has harmed Wing Chun , the schools that teach strictly self defence will continue and there is likely to be a growth in schools that teach self defence as well a modified Wing Chun for MMA type competition.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it but I do believe at some point it will come.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Here's the thing everybody misses.

"MMA" Isn't a style. It's a CONCEPT, and is not a new one, just repopularized under a new name at this particular time in history.

 

[Steve]

Because Bjj and MMA don't involve dedication, repitition and all the rest. Seriously. I'm begging you to stop. You're generalizing about something about which you clearly know very little.

I don't think it is a threat to it , the thing is that Wing Chun attracts a whole different crowd of people in my experience .

They are people that just want to train their 3 nights a week or what ever for self defence and have no interest whatsoever in competition they also want to have a physical and intellectual pursuit that they can enjoy till they are old and grey .

They also would probably not be at all interested in the gruelling conditioning that would be needed to compete in MMA competitions , they just want to have enough fitness to protect themself and their family in the street.

The other type of people which are usually young athletic males who might be slightly aggressive tend not to be attracted to Wing Chun because we stand funny and use these funny little straight punches it just does not look cool in their mind .

In my experience they also find the repetitive and to them tedious nature of the training boring and they tend to leave very quickly and go to other arts that emphasise a competitive aspect such as Muay Thai , Boxing , Grappling ,etc .

Hence due to the reasons I outlined above we would have a very small pool of young athletic talent to choose from to represent us properly in MMA compared to other styles who are just brimming with young athletic talent.

Hopefully in the future this will change , as I hear that in England there is a Sifu named Alan Orr who is training his Wing Chun men specifically for MMA competition , I believe they are called the Iron Wolves so finally we might be able to have well trained people that can represent the system properly in the cage .

So in closing no I don't think MMA has harmed Wing Chun , the schools that teach strictly self defence will continue and there is likely to be a growth in schools that teach self defence as well a modified Wing Chun for MMA type competition.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it but I do believe at some point it will come.

 

[LordOfWu]

Here's the thing everybody misses.

"MMA" Isn't a style. It's a CONCEPT, and is not a new one, just repopularized under a new name at this particular time in history.

I agree up to a point, but I think it's evolving into a style specific to a type of competition. I am sure you have all been in TMA schools that focus on competitions, where kata or sparring, and it impact their focus on the 'T' part of TMA and also sometimes on effective self defense.

I have seen schools opening that are MMA schools, and all they focus on is MMA techniques. I think that the evolution of MA is creating a new style, and I don't think this has a negative effect on other MA styles, it just adds a new option. It's all in the goals of the person looking for a school or style.

 

[mook jong man]

Because Bjj and MMA don't involve dedication, repitition and all the rest. Seriously. I'm begging you to stop. You're generalizing about something about which you clearly know very little.

Ok I admit Wing Chun is my game and I am out of my depth when it comes to talking about Bjj and MMA .
If you want to know anything about Wing Chun I will be on the Wing Chun forum , at this point I will take my leave of this thread and bail out.
Have a happy discussion.

 

[Andrew Green]

Here's the thing everybody misses.

"MMA" Isn't a style. It's a CONCEPT, and is not a new one, just repopularized under a new name at this particular time in history.

No, it's both.

The "style" came from the concept