Hapkido Curriculum

[terrylamar]

I guess that it all depends on the type of school you want to run: hard core, solid traditional, or a more hobbyist oriented class.

I wouldn't charaterize my classes as "hobbyist oriented" just because I don't want to jump over 6' and land in a forwards roll. I have been there and done that. I learned to fall in Honduras on a cement floor. I have that technique down pretty good. I have found in the last 34 years of Martial Arts, it does not make you a better Martial Artist. I will leave the acrobatics to the younger generation, while I spend more time perfecting my techniques.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just to clarify, Terry, I wasn't trying to imply that that your class would be a hobbyist class.

Dave O commented regarding your trying to attract either older or non athletic students. What I was getting at is that while you may be in good condition and have advanced technique, the average student coming into your class will likely not have advanced technique and may or may not be well conditioned.

I'd wager that 90% of the people who engage in a martial art are hobbyists, so to a great degree, a school needs to work with that. A hobbyist will have different training goals from a hard core or very traditional practitioner. They may want the "tradition" in terms of wearing a dobok and dde, bowing upon entering the dojang, and the dojang etiquette that is typically associated with the martial arts. But they may work a day job and not be able to risk sports injuries too frequently or may not have the energy after a full day at work to effectively do martial gymnastics.

As I mentioned earlier, an older or indeed, elderly student will also have specific training needs that will prevent them from doing certain things, and likely martial gymnastics will be on that list.

Lastly, students who are over thirty may already be coming to you with a collection of sports injuries from football, high school wrestling, or whatever sports they may have participated in high school and college.

I'm certainly not familiar enough with Combat Hapkido to know how the curriculum compares directly to a traditional Hapkido curriculum, but I'd assume that a practitioner with your years of experience could take the techniques of the C/H curriculum and work them into a more traditional class.

I do agree: XMA/martial gymnastics doesn't by itself make you better at defending yourself, though it does develope solid core strength.

In any case, I didn't mean to open a can of worms by bumping this thread. I just happened upon Master Pelligrini in BB magazine and felt that it was of interest to the topic.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Why does combat hapkido appeal to you but the traditional hapkido does not?

I imagine combat hapkido would be very appealing to sport TKD schools that are looking to add a stronger self-defense component. If combat hapkido is effective, then I could see it filling in a needed niche.

Didn't Dr. He Young Kimm recently associate his Hanmudo with the ITA, so that ITA taekwondo people can get exposure to his spin on hapkido? Sounds like a good idea.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Part of the reason that I took up hapkido was to add a stronger SD component to my KKW taekwondo. Not the only reason, but it was a consideration.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Part of the reason that I took up hapkido was to add a stronger SD component to my KKW taekwondo. Not the only reason, but it was a consideration.

Daniel

Daniel, considering the overlap between hapkido and TKD, what made you continue to train in both? I understand hapkido actually has its own huge array of kicks as well.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Since I bumped the thread, I do feel that I should point out that the OP (Terry) has black belt in a traditional hapkido style. He's taken a lot of heat on this thread for the use of correspondence learning and for his choice of combat hapkido without much acknowledgement that he is a traditional hapkido yudanja.

This isn't some blue belt who got cranked that it was taking him too long to get a black belt, got one from a paper mill and then got himself recognized with the IHCA.

This is a yudanja who's seniors are out of the area and who is over a hundred miles from another traditional school.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel, considering the overlap between hapkido and TKD, what made you continue to train in both? I understand hapkido actually has its own huge array of kicks as well.

Both are offered at the same school as a separate course of study, and my GM was a hapkido instructor in the ROK special forces, so I felt that it was worth doing in addition. I think that some of it is also that I had had an interest in hapkido for some time, as it also segues with kumdo at the blackbelt level; most hapkido systems from what I understand have a component of kumdo for yudanja, though it is a mok-do technique component, not juk-do technique.

Daniel

 

[Drac]

It's easier and you aren't held accountable.

"In combat hapkido, we've stripped away a lot of the traditional trappings- such as the classical stances and positions. We've [kept] the core of the art because basically a joint lock is a joint lock; nobody is going to reinvent it. We've stripped it down to emphasize close-quarters comflicts for modern battlefield environments, and we take into acount that when [a soldier] strikes, joint locks, or takes somebody down, he's going to have equipment on."

Read - we ignore the basics because we never learned them properly.

Watch any video of GM P and you can see he lacks sound basics.

...So how many seminars around the world do you teach.??? Has the U.S.M.C ever INVITED you to teach at one of their facilities?? If there was something wrong with his system there would be more people crying "FAKE, FAKE" that just you...

 

[Kumbajah]

I'm not in the business of martial arts so my seminar schedule isn't germane to the conversation but If you think teaching the government qualifies me to speak about basics, I have been part of a seminar at Quantico for the FBI and an instructor for the White House Athletic Center, if that curls your short hairs.

There there is the whole community of traditional Hapkido crying fake fake fake. The basics of proper movement are not there. The only defense I hear comes from within his organization. No one that practices THKD will say "oh yeah that guy is good." He moves like a gup rank. It's apparent in every video and pictorial ever produced by or about him. No "master" in any MA moves the way he does. Every master moves with confidence of knowledge and repetition grounded proper basics. You don't need to practice the same martial art to know when someone moves well or not. Show me another art that stutter stepping through a the technique is proper form or holding the limb trapped outwards from your body generates power. He does the outer form poorly without understanding where the power generation comes from. As far as I know its not a physical abnormality that keeps him from performing with good basics so my only conclusion is he either doesn't know any better or doesn't care.

It's your money spend how you see fit but My opinion is it would better spent elsewhere.

 

[jks9199]

Folks, let's remember that Martial Talk is NOT in the business of fraudbusting -- and it's not something that's gonna go over well here. Stick to facts and specific complaints, rather than calling someone a fake.

I've never met Grandmaste Pelligrini. I've seen one video and a few clips, and my wife took a collegiate PE class that was billed as self defense, but was really just a few months of Combat Hapkido. What she was taught wasn't bad, and my only complaint would have been eliminated had the class been called "Combat Hapkido 101." (I have specific expectations and ideas about how a "self defense" class should be taught -- and it's not the same as teaching a martial arts class.) It's almost inevitable that anyone who splits from an established style, especially if they go on to do their own thing, gets treated as a heretic by at least some members of the established style.

I think my views on pure video learning have been posted well before.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I think that like any supplemental program that is being integrated into an existing curriculum, the biggest factor is how well the instructor who is integrating the material has learned his or her basics. Given that combat hapkido should present nothing new to a hapkido instructor, I see it more as just that: a curriculum. If the instructor who is using it has solid traditional hapkido basics, then adding combat hapkido should be no problem at all and it shouldn't matter how well GM Pelligrini moves, as he isn't going to be the one teaching the class.

I will say that I look at the term, 'combat hapkido' a bit like I look at Jeet Kune Do and Classical Fencing. Both of the gentlemen who coined those terms (Bruce Lee and Adam Adrian Crown) regreted ever coining them. GM Pelligrini probably doesn't feel that way, which is fine, and I'm no marketing guru anyway.

Personally though, I feel that it is a rather unfortunate moniker. It plays well to the crowd that wants some sort of paramilitary style training, but it isn't a straight-from-the-military curriculum. It also is off putting to many of the people to whom it might otherwise appeal.

That said, it seems to have worked for him and from what I have read on this board at least, it does answer a need for some MA schools.

Daniel

 

[Kumbajah]

I think that like any supplemental program that is being integrated into an existing curriculum, the biggest factor is how well the instructor who is integrating the material has learned his or her basics. Given that combat hapkido should present nothing new to a hapkido instructor, I see it more as just that: a curriculum. If the instructor who is using it has solid traditional hapkido basics, then adding combat hapkido should be no problem at all and it shouldn't matter how well GM Pelligrini moves, as he isn't going to be the one teaching the class.

I do see as a problem even though GM P isn't teaching the class. He is responsible for developing the curriculum. What he teaches is based on his understanding of the techniques. His understanding is shown in the way that he moves. They are connected. It's a GIGO situation.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I do see as a problem even though GM P isn't teaching the class. He is responsible for developing the curriculum. What he teaches is based on his understanding of the techniques. His understanding is shown in the way that he moves. They are connected. It's a GIGO situation.

I can see that, but to play devil's advocate, if the CH curriculum consists of preexisting techniques that a veteran hapkidoin would already be familiar with and is already teaching anyway, are they then still connected?

Or is the the hapkidoin who is using the curriculum simply doing what a lot of KKW instructors do: teach the specific techniques that make up KKW taekwondo as part of their class and teach other things that are not specifically KKW. By being KKW certified, the school has some level of organizational support and is still teaching the same stuff it used to teach before, making sure that the students tests specifically include those techniques that the KKW requires.

With CH, a veteran teacher, from what I've read of Combat Hapkido, isn't going to be teaching any 'new' material, and if he or she is a veteran teacher, they'll already know how to do these techniques correctly. Saying, 'hey, I teach x,y, and z skill sets and my students have been tested on these techniques at gradings' now gets you organizational backing and whatever benefits come with it.

It could be for some schools that they just want to have something to say, "my dan certifications have more than just my say so" because some customers feel that that is important. It could also be that the CH org offers club insurance (don't know if they do) at a discounted rate. Since CH doesn't seem to require a school to disassociate itself from all other orgs and doesn't require the schools to conform to any specific business model, I can see where it would be appealing for a school that wants some kind of organizational backing but wants to remain relatively independent.

This is not an endorsement, mind you; I just find the conversation to be interestng.

Daniel

 

[Kumbajah]

Daniel I look at this way,

If the "sins" of the new curriculum are washed away by prior traditional hapkido experience. Why would you knowingly seek out an inferior teacher or a inferior curriculum. One in which you know they are doing things incorrectly? Just so you can add a program to increase revenue? You are knowingly "selling" an inferior product. Unscrupulous at best.

Besides nothing is stopping you from teaching the prior knowledge you have gained. You can convey Hapkido as Hoshinsool (as many TKD schools do) and don't need to offer a full program of inferior material.

Also CHKD does say that there is new material outside the traditional Hapkido curriculum . They have brought in material from the Philippine martial arts and BJJ. Which is "new" material. If they misunderstand the base art of HKD how much confidence do you have in the added material. To me it all comes back to GM P, as a knowing martial artist you can see he lacks mastery so the program is suspect. imo

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Also CHKD does say that there is new material outside the traditional Hapkido curriculum . They have brought in material from the Philippine martial arts and BJJ. Which is "new" material.

That would make a difference, I do agree.

Daniel

 

[Drac]

I'm not in the business of martial arts so my seminar schedule isn't germane to the conversation but If you think teaching the government qualifies me to speak about basics, I have been part of a seminar at Quantico for the FBI and an instructor for the White House Athletic Center

You obviously are a serious instructor..

if that curls your short hairs.

Not by any stretch of the imagination...

It's your money spend how you see fit but My opinion is it would better spent elsewhere.

My opinion is that I am happy with this system and will keep at it..And I will NEVER run down anyones chosen discipline or their Grandmaster..

 

[Kumbajah]

As I get older - I've taken never out of my vocabulary.

Caveat Emptor is all I'm saying.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Caveat Emptor is all I'm saying.

That is true regardless of style, system, or method of training. Particularly here in the US, where we have such a vast amount of info at our fingertips and really can beware.

Daniel

 

[Drac]

As I get older - I've taken never out of my vocabulary. .....

I pray I never get that old

 

[Kumbajah]

Well there's only one alternative to getting old. I hope you keep that at bay for a while