Hapkido Curriculum

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hello everyone,

I am curious about the logic behind the choice however. If it is because of distance, then having to drive 100 more miles to a dojang should not be that big a deal.

If you mean for regular training each week, I wholeheartedly disagree. A 200 mile round trip is a very big deal!!!! If you work a day job, then that means over four hours of driving round trip, and then there's the fuel costs.

If you mean for checking in with a senior once a or twice a month, then, I would agree to an extent.

Daniel

 

[iron_ox]

Actually, it is a big deal. The distance is 150 miles to the closest city with Hapkido. That mileage is to San Antonio, not where Hapkido is taught within the city. 150 miles times two, I do have to get back. 300 miles per trip, figure five hours driving time for one training sessiion. 300 miles cost somewhere arround $40.00 in my F350 at current fuel prices. A few short months ago it was double that.

I teach classes Monday through Friday 4:00 PM to 9:00 PM, Saturday 9:00 AM to 12:00 PM. With those hours and that distance, I have not been able to find a Hapkido class. I did and do an extensive search, I have not given up finding a Hapkido class that I can attend, but the search seems fruitless.

My availible hours are, adjusting for drive times, 11:00 PM to 2:00 PM the next day. I drive to Austin every weekend, a four hour trip and don't arrive until after 5:00 PM on Saturday. I do have all day Sunday.

I had a lead on a school that held classes on the third Sunday of each month, sadly, that ended some time ago.

With my schedule and teaching commitments the only other live training I can attend will be seminars. That, I intend to do and not only Combat Hapkido seminars. So, I may see some of you at these seminars.



No, it is not becasue of slick advertising. I am 52 years old and have been arround the block once or twice. I started taking Martial Arts, Judo, in the mid 70's while in the Marine Corps. The ICHF fits my needs. Despite the controversy, at least in some people's minds, Combat Hapkido I find to be a credible system. I, also, find that the ICHF fills my needs after a long conversation with GM Pellegrini.

I attended a seminar with GM P. back in 1989. Something, many, if not all of his distractors have not done. Since then, I went on to earn a Black Belt in a traditional style of Hapkido. I wish to progress, and I find the best way is through Combat Hapkido, supplemented by seminars.



There is controversy, yes, most of it from people who have had absolutely no contact with GM Pelegrini, the ICHF or Combat Hapkido. I, rarely, hear a complaint from anyone who has attended a seminar with GM P. I wonder why that is? My suggestion, is to hold what you have to say, until you have attended a seminar, afterwards, you will have more credibility.

Frankly, I'm tired of this thread and the direction it has gone. To me, it seems some people have agendas against Combat Hapkido, opinions formed without any first hand knowledge. Perhaps, instead of worrying about my motivations, you need to examine your own.

I will assume that most of this is directed at me, so I will respond. First sir, I was trying to simply understand your motivations for choosing CH - not being critical. My goal was to get an interesting thread back on topic - eg your interest in finding credible Hapkido.

Yes, I asked about travel. I fly 9000 miles each way to train. So, I do question peoples motives in regard to travel distance.

I think I said that it seems CH meets your needs - so good. In addition, I also said it appears you did your own due diligence, that is very good.

Yes, I called it slick advertising - they have some of the best in the business - I have also seen some of the DVD's - but maybe the word slick is not as good as persuasive - lots of work has been put into that campaign. Again, nothing negative, it just is what it is.

I train in traditional Hapkido from its Founder. I do not need to attend a seminar first hand to have an opinion. After 30 years of training, I think I can form an opinion based on the first hand experienceI have from some of his students and instructors - agian, not as people, but technically in their technique. I feel quite confident to comment on his lineage and his actual training experience.

Anyway, I actually don't have an agenda with this thread - my motivations were to find out your logic for picking CH. I do have an opinion about CH and Peligrini (from first hand experience), so if that came through as an agenda, sorry.

Hope all works out for you.

 

[iron_ox]

If you mean for regular training each week, I wholeheartedly disagree. A 200 mile round trip is a very big deal!!!! If you work a day job, then that means over four hours of driving round trip, and then there's the fuel costs.

If you mean for checking in with a senior once a or twice a month, then, I would agree to an extent.

Daniel

Hello Daniel,

I can only say that I guess it depends on your goals and expectations. I would not "settle" for something that is not everything I want because it is close. Although from the empassioned statement of Mr. Lamar, it sounds like proximity was not really the primary concern.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yet all the CHKD supporters say is take a seminar.

With that being said, I will happily attend a seminar if someone else is paying. There is one in my area in March.

Not being a CHKD supporter, I'll say this: You've stated how DVD instruction and such cannot communicate a technique, so you really can't fault them for saying to take the seminar before you judge.

Given that they all attended at their own expense, it isn't unreasonable for them to assume that you'd do so at your own expense as well.

I still haven't had a chance to watch the vids that you posted following the CHKD vid, so I'll get back to you on that.

Daniel

 

[Kumbajah]

Not being a CHKD supporter, I'll say this: You've stated how DVD instruction and such cannot communicate a technique, so you really can't fault them for saying to take the seminar before you judge.

Given that they all attended at their own expense, it isn't unreasonable for them to assume that you'd do so at your own expense as well.

I still haven't had a chance to watch the vids that you posted following the CHKD vid, so I'll get back to you on that.

Daniel

I said you can't learn from a DVD. I practice traditional HKD. I can see what is going on. The one technique I began to comment on is one that is in our curriculum. The way that GM P does it, is the way that many people that I've taught do it initially. I have tweaked their in a way that is consistent with the way I learned. (Details explained in an earlier post.) I can explain why we do it the way that we do it. I'm just asking for the same sort of explanation because it seems contrary to everything I learned in Traditional hapkido. I am willing to have a discussion. I have also learned similar technique in Aikido - it's different but consistent with the "why" it works I learned in Hapkido. Weight shifts, footwork, posture, hip power generation etc.

As for attending at my own expense - I have nothing to gain from the experience - either I'm right or wrong. If I'm right it cost me x amount to confirm what I already know (or think I know). If I'm wrong - I am happy with traditional hapkido so thats not going to change. So the only thing that would come out of it would I'd be willing to apologize if I was wrong. I'd reimburse the cost. "Yep, you were right here's the money"

As of yet I can't even get a discussion about it. If someone can explain why they do it the way they do and it seems plausible I'd be willing to investigate it first hand. Until then I'll have to believe my own lying eyes.

 

[Drac]

There is controversy, yes, most of it from people who have had absolutely no contact with GM Pelegrini, the ICHF or Combat Hapkido. I, rarely, hear a complaint from anyone who has attended a seminar with GM P. I wonder why that is?

That's because people that have met and trained with GMP know that he is not PC...If you are acting like a know-it-all-jerk he will tell you..

Frankly, I'm tired of this thread and the direction it has gone.

You aren't the only one..

To me, it seems some people have agendas against Combat Hapkido, opinions formed without any first hand knowledge.

That's because its easier for folks to say that he's a jerk and his art is BS and to nit pick at his techniques..CH works for me...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If you can't see any problem with his execution then I am glad that I took the time to comment This partially the problem imo. If you seen it done correctly the difference is obvious imo. If you haven't ... well he might seem like he knows what he's doing.

Compare to

I have no idea who these people are but they do hapkido better than GM P. ( they're not "names" ) Take special note of the amount of steps they take per technique, their posture and using weight shifts to affect the attacker. The difference is obvious to me - if you have any specific questions I'd be happy to answer.

Okay, I fresh from hapkido class and finally having watched the three videos back to back, along with the one on the Jin Pal home page. Here are my thoughts:

GMP circles around his partner more than I see in our classes, but not to the degree that it is made to sound like from reading some of the posts here (not just yours). His footwork is decidedly different from ours and from the two vids in the post quoted above.

The first vid in the above post looked more traditional, but it also involved a partner who executed an attack and stood frozen for a much longer time than an actual opponent would. The gentlman executing the techniques did so beautifully, but took his time doing it.

The second vid in the above post looked more dynamic than either the one poated with it or GMP's, and while his footwork was different, he moved around every bit as much as GMP, he did some jumping around as well. He had the flashiest looking hapkido of the three videos. I did think that the guy thrashing around on the floor and tapping for ten seconds after he was pinned in almost every clip was a bit much. If you've executed the technique and your partner taps, let him up.

GMP's footwork was, as I said above, decidedly different from the other vids, though I will refrain from judging that as good or bad, since I don't know the purpose behind it. Strictly from an SD point of view, nothing in GMP's video was impractical or nonfunctional, and was decidedly non-flashy, no kicks above the waist and not a lot of hanging onto his partner once the technique had been executed.

The Jin Pal video is honestly the one that impressed me the most, as it had nice mix of flash and practical and displayed a lot of kicking (I do TKD, so of course I'm going to like nice kicks). If your school was around the corner, I'd at least pay a visit.

None of the videos left me cold or sour. I appreciated each of them for different reasons. The only thing that I'll say about GMP is that his style is definitely his style. Once again, there was nothing in his three minute and eight second video that would make me turn around and walk out if I were watching it in a school setting.

Lastly, I haven't seen enough of GMP to be a supporter or a detractor, and likewise, based on sub-three minute videos, I would likewise refrain from forming any definitive opinions of any of the people in the videos that I saw beyond what I stated above.

Daniel

 

[Eric Deveau]

Is there a video to use as a comparison to the youtube video to which you linked earlier in the thread? A compare and contrast would be interesting.

To use the "current" thread as a gauge does anyone see some things wrong / right with this technique??
Or maybe its just the camera angle or maybe the photographer OR????

 

[Kumbajah]

LOL! - I didn't that notice it until now.

"Hapkido - more than a cheap thrill!"

 

[yorkshirelad]

Will the ICHF still accept a Black Belt from another recognized organization to convert to a Dan in ICHF.

I remember this was so many years ago, but cannot find any information on their website.

This happens in other "legitimate" Hapkido kwan. I studied for a few years with Kwang Jang Nim Massan Ghorbani in Co Wicklow in Ireland. The guy is a phenominal Martial artist and now 9th Dan in Sin Moo Hapkido under Do Ju Nim Ji Han Jae. He was, however a 4 th Dan in Kyokushikai Karate when he met Do Ju Nim in '92 and after one meeting and one instructor seminar, he was promoted to 4th Dan, which is master rank immediatelt, along with most of the others in attendance.

I'm not saying that this is wrong. Who am I to question Do Ju Nim. I'm just saying that it happens across the board, to increase the instructor base.

What I like about GM Pelligrini is that he doesn't pretend to be all things to all people. He brings people in to his org, who have different specialties and offers their knowledge to the student base and gives credit for that knowledge to the instructor in question. This shows a real lack of ego. I hope to train under him in a seminar someday.

 

[yorkshirelad]

To use the "current" thread as a gauge does anyone see some things wrong / right with this technique??
Or maybe its just the camera angle or maybe the photographer OR????

The instructor has a smile on his face....who am I to judge?

 

[yorkshirelad]

Realistically, if you have a good, solid understanding of body mechanics, there are only but so many ways to twist, lock, or grapple an opponent. There are only but so many ways to actually strike an opponent. Everything else is variation on existing themes. And I would think that a practitioner with nine years of hapkido under his or her belt would have a fairly solid, if not very solid grasp of that.

My guess is, and Terry can correct me if I'm wrong, that there really isn't anything new or revolutionary about combat hapkido, but rather it is the specific combination of techniques contained in the curriculum coupled with training with an emphasis on practical SD.

If one is already has a solid practical SD background, then once again, lessons learned from a DVD should not be difficult to apply. I do still maintain that if distance is an issue, as it is in this case, one should find the closest school of the appropriate style, whatever it is, and arrange to check in every few months for minor course corrections and objective in person feedback.

Daniel

I wholeheartedly agree with this post. An experienced martial artist, can watch a video and get a grasp of a technique or principle shown. I believe it's then possible to teach these methods rather quickly, sometimes on the same day. The methods that are conveyed from DVD may not be exactly the way the video instructor demonstrated, especially in the nuances, but as teachers, we are not painting by numbers. We are Martial "artists", we can fill in the blanks with our own logic.

 

[bushido]

Can you learn a new art from video? I don't believe so, not a complex art, and not to proficiency anyway.
Can a black belt watch a video of his chosen art and work out a few new techs? I would believe so.
Even if the video instructor is not technically sound, you should be able to apply the proper principles of HKD (hwa, won, yue, centre of mass etc.) to the form and use it properly. If a novice were to attempt the same, of course he could not do it properly, he just does not have knowledge of the underlying principles.
I could take a technique from a linear style, apply the principles of HKD to it, and do it "properly". It will not look or be executed the same as the style I took it from, but it will be "correct". Why? Because I know how to move, where force is generated, how the body works and how to break it.
I was taught that as HapKiDoists, we are thieves. If something works, if it works with proper body mechanics and can be explained medically and scientifically, we steal it. If it looks like it works, but we cannot apply our form of movement to it, or it cannot be explained scientifically, we throw it away.
Personally, I watch all the videos I can find about all styles. Why? I teach. It is my responsibility to know as much as possible about the fighting arts as I can. To me, that means looking at everybody, rolling with who ever I can, and developing the proper communicative skills to pass to my students that which I have learned.
For those who do not believe in watching video to learn, try these exercises.
-Watch first with an open mind. Is there anything here that is new to me? Can it be adapted to my particular style. Why would it be beneficial?
-Watch now with a critical mind. What is being done wrong? Why is it wrong, and how is it corrected?
-Try watching with out the sound. I have found that the monologue or perhaps pitch can glaze over poor techniques. You are taken in by the speech pattern or the explanation so much that you are not really paying attention to the form. The opposite also stands to be true, alot of instructors are good at what they do, they can do a tech very well, but they do not have the ability to explain it verbally well to others. His poor description of the process may be so bad that you dismiss him as no good, when he actually has much to teach.

OP is a black belt. If his form of HKD is a solid one, he will know what is right or wrong. He should be capable of applying what he knows to any technique.

Anyway, this being my first post on your forums, and as this is turning into a novel, I will let it go LOL.
BTW, hello to all!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Welcome Bushido, and thank you for such a thoughtful first post!

Daniel

 

[Hapkidoman]

Good luck with your training in ICHF, the material is excellent, and there are a lot of good practioners in the organization. The only draw back I see is that Black Belt Rank is easy to get, in most cases it does not take a school owner much more than attending a few seminars and of course a "Check". Unfortunatly this waters down the system I know of a few 4th Dan's that are not really much more qualified than a mid range color belt. I guess this is a pitfall of any large organization, that there are so many people that "fall through the cracks".

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Good luck with your training in ICHF, the material is excellent, and there are a lot of good practioners in the organization. The only draw back I see is that Black Belt Rank is easy to get, in most cases it does not take a school owner much more than attending a few seminars and of course a "Check". Unfortunatly this waters down the system I know of a few 4th Dan's that are not really much more qualified than a mid range color belt. I guess this is a pitfall of any large organization, that there are so many people that "fall through the cracks".

Probably more a pitfall of the video component in transmitting the art. Terry Lamar, the OP, got into CHKD after spending years in hapkido. I'm sure that there are a good number of people who had no HKD training who advanced via video and never received the kinds of hands on instruction in the material that a fourth dan of another art would probably have received.

This really doesn't reflect on the material so much as on the delivery mechanism.

Daniel

 

[Devlin76]

I have nothing to add about the Hapkido stuff since I have no experience in that area, but I did want to make a comment about one of the last posts regarding the ease of getting a black belt in the ICHF. There is a lot of difference between schools and organizations concerning what a black belt represents. In some schools I am familiar with, someone can get a black belt in less than two years with consistent training. But in those schools being a black belt (at least just the first step shodan) only means you understand the principles, can execute the basic curriculum cleanly, and can train "hard" without getting hurt or hurting someone else accidently. So in these kind of schools all serious training comes after hitting black belt. In other schools earning your black belt means you have put in seven or eight years, and have nearly mastered 80% of the whole system. For ICHF specifically, an inconsistency in quality of black belt practitioners could easily be related to the video tape curriculum.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I did join the ICHF as a Charter School. I received my Package on Friday. The challenge is to now enroll adults into the program. I know a few are interested.

Hey Terry,

I know this goes back to 2008, though the thread remained pretty lively well into 2010. How has CHKD worked out at your dojang? An update would be most welcome.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Hey Terry,

I know this goes back to 2008, though the thread remained pretty lively well into 2010. How has CHKD worked out at your dojang? An update would be most welcome.

Daniel

I'm not Terry, but my friend who was interested in learning some locks and throws to add to his curriculum is now a Combat Hapkido devotee. As a TKD school owner, they're letting him test for 1st dan in CHKD when he is ready to undertake the examination. He is pleased with the seminar opportunities and has already trained with Mr. Pelligrini twice.

He went with CHKD after we researched some other opportunities like judo, ITF hoshinul (not really a possibility for him) and standard hapkido.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm not Terry, but my friend who was interested in learning some locks and throws to add to his curriculum is now a Combat Hapkido devotee. As a TKD school owner, they're letting him test for 1st dan in CHKD when he is ready to undertake the examination. He is pleased with the seminar opportunities and has already trained with Mr. Pelligrini twice.

He went with CHKD after we researched some other opportunities like judo, ITF hoshinul (not really a possibility for him) and standard hapkido.

I think I remember you posting about that some time back. Glad to hear that he's found a working solution.

Daniel