You might wish to broaden your perspective beyond your own, because if you do that, you might get to the actual facts. Starting from a conclusion is probably the worst way to investigate something. I prefer to take a more objective approach, seeing it how it really is, from the other person's perspective and culture, rather than seeing it wearing rose colored glasses tinted with my own perspective and culture only.
John Pellegrini
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You might wish to broaden your perspective beyond your own, because if you do that, you might get to the actual facts. Starting from a conclusion is probably the worst way to investigate something. I prefer to take a more objective approach, seeing it how it really is, from the other person's perspective and culture, rather than seeing it wearing rose colored glasses tinted with my own perspective and culture only.
While the two are not exclusive, one does not require the other. There is plenty of inferior matieral being taught by people without inflated rank. Perhaps the pioneers of most of Korean arts should have put better mechanisms into place to curb this sort of thing. The Kuk Sool Won guy did from what I understand, and I think that Hwarang Do guy did as well. If I'm not mistaken, they can go after you legally if you use the names of those arts without being ranked in them.
And certainly, there were fakes and pretenders at the time HKD was founded.
Firstly, my remark was neither directed at you nor was it meant to imply you. Secondly, people have been gone after legally for things that they post on internet forums about other people, so if the person to whom it was directed is going to keep saying 'such and such did thus and so,' which happens to be questionable, they really should be able to reference it to more than just an internet thread.
Claim to be.
If I am planning to train under someone, I will question them to death. Otherwise, they're just another place that I crossed off of the list. While I would look forward to participating in a CHKD seminar, I have no desire to train via video. Video teaching pretty much kills it for me, regardless of GMP's rank or who promoted him.
Sure they should. By whom? The international MA regulatory commission? Doesn't exist, and since Korea doesn't have an equivalent to the Dai Nippon Butokukai, I guess it falls to the Kidohae. Apparently they gave GMP his rank. And apparently, they have no real power to hold anyone accountable or to prevent them using the name 'hapkido' in their art.
So it isn't going to happen. GMP's rank isn't going anywhere. Myung Kwang Sik passed away in 2009, and Seo is KSW and unlikely to go and bust GMP back down to whatever he was prior to being promoted to GM.
Combat Hapkido is not going to be confused for hapkido and frankly, the guys looking to rank via video aren't concerned with whether or not GMP's rank was inflated. And like myself, video training pretty much kills if for anyone who is really interested in quality training. Those who are interested in video learning probably aren't going to be at all interested in what you or I are doing anyway. And there's an instant GM in any major art you can think of with DVD's out there just for those who think that you can learn martial arts from the TV.
Which is why I say that people need to get over it with regards to this guy unless they're willing to either out market him or actually try to bring him up on fraud charges.
Perhaps all of the traditional or legitimate HKD GMs should get together and form an organization to define and register legitimate Hapkido kwans and to actually call BS on thsoe that they feel are not.
But if they're not willing to do that, then how do you propose to hold such organizations accountable?
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Appreciate the clarification sir.
Very cool. Though I still disagree about HKD being just a label.
Funny, but I don't think I have ever addressed any of my teachers or seniors as "sir", and I have never heard my seniors using that term either. Calling my teachers and/or seniors "sir" would be like calling my parents or older siblings "sir". I know some families use that, but not mine.
You can call me sir; I'm a knight!
Hapkido is not just a label.
I know.
Did you question GM Lim about his own hapkido promotions? We know his claim about starting hapkido training in 1965, and that he was promoted to 9th Dan (with one of GM Ji's certificates) by GM Choi in 1984, after GM Choi had suffered a stroke and stopped teaching for a number of years. Is 19 years, in your opinion, enough time to go from white belt to 9th Dan? Also, do you know if GM Lim has all his certificates from 1st through 9th, or did he skip any dan ranks? Just wondering because we always hear about GM Lim's 9th Dan, but never the circumstances upon which he received that.
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That's okay, we can agree to disagree. I enjoy talking with you regardless of whether we agree or not
miguksaram
Master of Arts
Not entirely correct. You have to have their permission to use their name and teach their art even if you are ranked in it as a black belt. They went after an individual who was was ranked 4th Dan in Hwarangdo and taught the art, mixed with other arts, under an entirely different name. However the WHRDA was pushing a lawsuit to stop him from even teaching the same forms....just an FYI...now back to the program.
iron_ox
Black Belt
Off Topic:
No, it was Hapkido. Far before revisionist historians claimed they "invented" the name...
No again, not according to the GM's I have spoken to from Daegu that were training at the end of the 1940's - the high kicks were never taught or practiced in Choi Dojunim's dojang. Only in Seoul. But you can believe what you want...
No, it was Hapkido. Far before revisionist historians claimed they "invented" the name...
No again, not according to the GM's I have spoken to from Daegu that were training at the end of the 1940's - the high kicks were never taught or practiced in Choi Dojunim's dojang. Only in Seoul. But you can believe what you want...
iron_ox
Black Belt
iron_ox
Black Belt
Sorry my earlier number was incorrect.
Was it? There are photos of dojang signs that prove otherwise.
I was talking about the 1950's. GM SUH Bok Sup stated that GM KIM Moo Hong trained hard in kicks when GM Kim was an instructor at his dojang, during the 50's, in Taegu.
Also, GM YOO Yong Woo (GM Ji's first student in Andong) stated that they trained "high kicks" in andong in 1956, which is before Seoul.
Also, I never said the high kicks were taught or practiced in Choi Dojunim's dojang. What I said was "GM Choi knew exactly what GM Ji and GM Kim were doing and did not object, complain or discourage them from practicing or adding that into the curriculum."
But you can believe what you want...
Yes, I teach Hapkido...not a variant.
Correction, you teach yukwonsul, and call it hapkido.
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iron_ox
Black Belt
Because the Seo/Suh Kidohae, or the "provincial" Kidohae as it is referred to in Korea is a Kuk Sool Won organization that was "assumed in the 1980's, it has nothing to do with Hapkido.
Choi Dojunim had little or nothing to do with Seoul based, or Pusan based organizations decades before his death.
Now that is funny. Wasn't he already out of the country by 1982? And he had SUCH a close bond with Choi Dojunim that what he just forgot to come to the funeral? Revisionism aside, it showed so much respect to make a claim to being the founder of Hapkido in the same issue of TKDT that the death of Choi Dojunim was announced. Like claiming to be Choi Dojunim's senior student, or an assistant instructor at Choi Dojunim's dojang...all false. There are too many people who were there and remember what happened for any of the revisionism to stand.
GM Lim was promoted to 9th Dan in 1983, not 1984. So it was eighteen years from white belt to 9th Dan, not nineteen. My mistake.
iron_ox
Black Belt
OFF TOPIC! (Again)
Why Choi Dojunim did anything he did I would only be guessing. But Grandmaster Lim had many years or both public and private instruction, and trained with Choi Dojunim 6 days a week. Including almost a decade when Choi Dojunim was teaching out of Grandmaster Lim's dojang.
Since this might clarify things for you, in your own mind, do ANY of the 9th or 10th dans in Sin Moo have a similar training history - lets say 18 years of daily training (or even 6 days a week) with Sin Moo's Founder?? I was just looking at the list...lets see...
Sorry all, not going off topic again...
Why Choi Dojunim did anything he did I would only be guessing. But Grandmaster Lim had many years or both public and private instruction, and trained with Choi Dojunim 6 days a week. Including almost a decade when Choi Dojunim was teaching out of Grandmaster Lim's dojang.
Since this might clarify things for you, in your own mind, do ANY of the 9th or 10th dans in Sin Moo have a similar training history - lets say 18 years of daily training (or even 6 days a week) with Sin Moo's Founder?? I was just looking at the list...lets see...
- Merrill Jung; 10th Dan - California - maybe
- Jurg Ziegler; 10th Dan - Switzerland - probably not
- Ken MacKenzie; 10th Dan - New Jersey - maybe
- Massan Ghorbani; 9th Dan - Ireland - probably not
- John Beluschak; 9th Dan - Pennsylvania - probably not
- Walter Hubmann; 9th Dan - Austria - Probably not
- Nicolas Tacchi; 9th Dan - France - Probably not
- Rami Vainionpàà, 9th Dan - Finland - Probably not
- Rafael Balbastre, 9th Dan - Spain - Probably not
- Yung T. Freda; 9th Dan - California - maybe
- Glenn H. Uesugi; 9th Dan - you - ??
- Stuart Forrest; 9th Dan- California - maybe
- Ronny Dassen; 9th Dan - Belgium - Probably not
- Dr. Egil Fosslien; 9th Dan - Illinois - maybe
- Hank Shik-Shin; 9th Dan - Pennsylvannia - maybe
- Ian Cyrus; 9th Dan - Pennsylvannia - maybe
- Larry Dorsey; 9th Dan - California - maybe
- Scott Yates; 9th Dan - New Jersey - maybe
- Geoff J. Booth; 9th Dan - Australia - Probably not
- John Godwin; 9th Dan - Delaware - maybe
- Jimmy Brown; 9th Dan - maybe
Sorry all, not going off topic again...
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