Combat hapkido system vs. traditional hapkido systems

[goingd]

So we have basics that can't be explained. Prehaps a video? If they are as common as you believe we may just know what you're talking about.

Well, like I said, I could not find the videos (and I don't think I referred to the techniques as being all that common). I suppose, though, that I can try and explain them:

1. (defense against punch) Step back and grab both the wrist and the arm. Pull your opponent through and flip them into a throw. (this technique only uses the hands to throw - no hips, shoulders, etc.)

2. (defense against punch) Step back and grab the punching hand on the inside with one hand. Pull your opponent in while stepping back again and grabbing with your other hand; at the same time drop your center and twist your opponent's wrist to the outside to drop them to the ground. (this technique can also be done by stepping in and is often also used as a defense against a straight knife stab)

3. (defense against inside wrist grab) Grab your opponents wrist with the same hand that is being grabbed, then twist your body to face away from your opponent while maintaining your grip and simultaneously bring their arm next to your head. Grab their elbow with your other hand, drop your center and take them down to the ground. (usually followed with a punch or another striking technique)
Edit: Actually this third technique is demonstrated in this video at about 1:50 -

 

[goingd]

We've been saying this for years.

Then why say that, as a system, it is not traditional? Honestly, I am just curious, and not at all intending to criticize.

 

[Drac]

Criticisms seemed to be confined to personal opinions of GMP and the option of distance learning, neither of which really has anything to do with the system.

That's about it..Some folks have a real problem with the name of the system..

 

[Hollywood1340]

Then why say that, as a system, it is not traditional? Honestly, I am just curious, and not at all intending to criticize.

The answers have been answered here on this thread and others as well as published interviews. As I suggested before, do some research and the answers are out there. One must be willing to A: look for it and B: Accept and understand it.

 

[Hollywood1340]

Well, like I said, I could not find the videos (and I don't think I referred to the techniques as being all that common). I suppose, though, that I can try and explain them:

1. (defense against punch) Step back and grab both the wrist and the arm. Pull your opponent through and flip them into a throw. (this technique only uses the hands to throw - no hips, shoulders, etc.)

2. (defense against punch) Step back and grab the punching hand on the inside with one hand. Pull your opponent in while stepping back again and grabbing with your other hand; at the same time drop your center and twist your opponent's wrist to the outside to drop them to the ground. (this technique can also be done by stepping in and is often also used as a defense against a straight knife stab)

3. (defense against inside wrist grab) Grab your opponents wrist with the same hand that is being grabbed, then twist your body to face away from your opponent while maintaining your grip and simultaneously bring their arm next to your head. Grab their elbow with your other hand, drop your center and take them down to the ground. (usually followed with a punch or another striking technique)
Edit: Actually this third technique is demonstrated in this video at about 1:50 -

I am familiar with these techniques and were taught them in the CHKD curriculum. The one on YT was one of my favorites and I think there is video of GMP demonstrating it out there. If you'd like to know more, you can pick up the complete syllabus on DVD.

 

[Drac]

We teach the typical rotating punch. We train in all three ranges of kicks, mainly because high kicks promote flexibility and range.

We dont teach the rotating punch..

Also, while I am not a proponent of high kicks in SD, they can have application under the right conditions.

Yes, under the right circumstances a high kick can be devistating..If the student came from another system and is a good kicker we show them how to blend it with CH.

Is that something that you introduced in your school on your own or part of CHKD? Or both?.

We introduced defenses from a seated position, and is not part of the system.But an attack can happen any place at anytime we felt it would be a good subject to investigate..

Love the monkey in the middle drill.?.

Even our newest students who were at first very frightened of the exercise now WANT to do it..

I'm still not sure where I stand on the 'when' of weapon defenses. I have heard good cases for introducing weapon defenses early and late..?.

I and Master Steve believe in starting the defenses against weapons early.It helps to eliminate the fear..

So far, trappings and nomenclature aside, I have yet to see anything that strikes me as radically different from "traditional" Everything that both GMP and yourself and Hollywood described would fall into what is considered "traditional" hapkido..

Watch what ya say..You'll have one of the know-it-alls log on and tell you that you dont know what you are talking about...LOL

Not interested in saying that they are good or bad, just trying to become more educated on the subject and to promote an educated discussion. I think that the system deserves that, given how readily some people jump to attack it...

You are among the few that WANT to be educated..Some prefer to just attack GMP and CHKD.

 

[goingd]

The answers have been answered here on this thread and others as well as published interviews. As I suggested before, do some research and the answers are out there. One must be willing to A: look for it and B: Accept and understand it.

The answers simply did not make sense to me - those on this thread and those presented in interviews. It has nothing to do with accepting it - I have no intention of forcing something to make sense. However, I am afraid my question deters from the topic, so never mind.

 

[goingd]

I am familiar with these techniques and were taught them in the CHKD curriculum. The one on YT was one of my favorites and I think there is video of GMP demonstrating it out there. If you'd like to know more, you can pick up the complete syllabus on DVD.

That is good to know and serves to provide more information about the system, but also serves to further confuse me. Ah well.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

We dont teach the rotating punch..

We use the rotating punch for reverse punches, but we also make use of jabs, upper cuts, and hooks, which do not rotate.

Yes, under the right circumstances a high kick can be devistating..If the student came from another system and is a good kicker we show them how to blend it with CH.

A good approach.

We have high kicks integrated into our system already, so a good kicker from another style simply can apply his or her ability as the curriculum unfolds.

We introduced defenses from a seated position, and is not part of the system.But an attack can happen any place at anytime we felt it would be a good subject to investigate..

Most definitely.

Even our newest students who were at first very frightened of the exercise now WANT to do it..

Monkey in the middle is a good drill to help students overcome fear.

I and Master Steve believe in starting the defenses against weapons early.It helps to eliminate the fear..

Again, a good approach.

Watch what ya say..You'll have one of the know-it-alls log on and tell you that you dont know what you are talking about...LOL

Bring it on. Unless they have done the research to support their opinions, it will be a short conversation. As I said, a lot of the critics tend to slam the system in general and then zero in on criticisms of GMP, which may or may not have any basis in actual fact, and of distance learning/ranking, which is really separate from the system.

I will admit that I have my own reservations about the distance learning/ranking. I think that it is generally fine for advanced hapkido students, or students who have a similar technical base in another art, but I am against a fresh student going from white to black belt in a non-sport system completely via video lessons.

But, again, that is really not a reservation about the system but about the delivery method.

You are among the few that WANT to be educated..Some prefer to just attack GMP and CHKD.

Well, not being interested in attacking individuals in an online medium, all that really remains is exchange of information to increase my knowledge base. That and good conversation with good people.

Daniel

 

[Drac]

Bring it on. Unless they have done the research to support their opinions, it will be a short conversation. As I said, a lot of the critics tend to slam the system in general and then zero in on criticisms of GMP, which may or may not have any basis in actual fact, and of distance learning/ranking, which is really separate from the system.

That's just it..Many have not done ANY research.They just believe that their discipline is the best..

I will admit that I have my own reservations about the distance learning/ranking.

As do I

I think that it is generally fine for advanced hapkido students, or students who have a similar technical base in another art, but I am against a fresh student going from white to black belt in a non-sport system completely via video lessons.But, again, that is really not a reservation about the system but about the delivery method

I agree..I do not know anything about the whole distance learning system..For answers to those questions you must contact ICHF HQ..

Well, not being interested in attacking individuals in an online medium, all that really remains is exchange of information to increase my knowledge base. That and good conversation with good people.

You and I share that too..Like I said before, I have spent a good amount of time around GMP and have NEVER heard him slam any other Grandmaster,Sifu or Sensei or their respective disciplines.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I agree..I do not know anything about the whole distance learning system..For answers to those questions you must contact ICHF HQ.

I cannot imagine that it is any different from that of Chuck Sullivan's IKCA distance learning program. The videos present the material, you learn it visually and film your test with a training partner according to the guidelines set forth by the organization and send it in to be reviewed.

You and I share that too..Like I said before, I have spent a good amount of time around GMP and have NEVER heard him slam any other Grandmaster,Sifu or Sensei or their respective disciplines.

In my conversation with him, he was very respectful when talking about other systems. Even those with the more 'arty' focus he said were beneficial and good; just not what his system focused on.

He also stated that people get involved with the martial arts for different reasons, so each system has its core group to whom it appeals.

Daniel

 

[Drac]

I cannot imagine that it is any different from that of Chuck Sullivan's IKCA distance learning program. The videos present the material, you learn it visually and film your test with a training partner according to the guidelines set forth by the organization and send it in to be reviewed.

There are some distance learning systems out there that will ship you your black belt and certificate once you pay in full..

In my conversation with him, he was very respectful when talking about other systems. Even those with the more 'arty' focus he said were beneficial and good; just not what his system focused on.

Yep, that is exactally the way he talks..Unlike a lot of people out there he doesnt talk about his art or MA all the time..He has a wide range of subjects he is quite conversant in..

He also stated that people get involved with the martial arts for different reasons, so each system has its core group to whom it appeals.

True..

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

There are some distance learning systems out there that will ship you your black belt and certificate once you pay in full..

While that may be true, I do not see CHKD or IKCA as being among those.

From what I understand, you send in your video and it is evaluated and then your rank is confirmed or denied.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Okay, I actually have the information packet that GMP sent me.

I am treating this as what it is: promotional material as opposed to a scholarly work, thus I will not be critical of obvious marketing.

It has GMP on the cover in four different pictures. One is him in his navy dobok with the cream cuffs and lapel trim and over-sized patch standing relaxed with his hands crossed at the belt.. The next is him in a cobalt blue dobok with a very thick belt and sleeves with stars and stripes standing in a defensive posture. The third is him in paramilitary gear wearing wraparound shades and holding a machine gun. The last is him in a polo shirt with his hands on his hips in front of the American flag.

The inside flap displays his resume, hall of fame inductions, and major media features.

The first page discusses the organizational goals, benefits, and advantages.

The following are direct quotes.

Goals:
To teach the most realistic and effective self defense system.
To help martial arts instructors grow professionally.
To provide our members with valuable products and services at reasonable fees, without oppressive mandates and excessive financial demands.
To issue legitimate, world class certifications.

ICHF Benefits:
Improve your skills and advance your knowledge with an effective, modern and comprehensive system of scientific self defense.
Enhance your teaching curriculum to attract and retain more adult students.
Receive and provide to your students prestigious, world recognized certifications.
Belong to a strong, progressive, friendly, and internationally respected organization.
Gain the opportunity to meet, befriend, and network with professional self defense instructors around the world.

I underlined 'friendly' in the description of the organization. Having spoken directly to the founder, I will back this 100%. The man was friendly and not the least bit condescending or arrogant. He spoke to me with professionalism and was very enjoyable.

Advantages:
Our purpose is to service and benefit our members. The ICHF is superior to any other HKD Association because it is highly responsive to the needs of the martial arts community.

I underlined the above because I see it as a possible point of contention for detractors, who may see it as evidence that he disrespects traditional hapkido or other organizations.

I say that he is not. He enumerates why he feels that his organization is superior. He addresses common issues that his organization claims to have addressed. And as stated before, this is a promotional packet that contains marketing jargon; its a promotional pack so I expect it to be. Note that he is speaking of his organization, not his system. I will address what he says about the system in my next post. This one is lengthy enough as it is.

Within the ICHF, you can always count on:

Prompt services. No waiting several months for certificates or any other items.

Reasonable fees. We want you to be prosperous and successful. The ICHF does not impose heavy financial burdens on schools and instructors.

Recognition. The ICHF wants you to be a martial arts professional with legitimate credentials. We do not hold back rank. You will receive the rank you have earned and the promotions you deserve.

I underlined earned and deserved. So long as rank is truly earned, then promotions are deserved. I also see a theme of wanting 'you', presumably the school owner, to be prosperous and successful. This could be seized upon as evidence of a money making scheme, except that he again qualifies it by saying that the ICHF does not impose fees. In other words, he says, 'we want you to do well so we don't bilk you.' Seems reasonable to me. He goes on in the following to say that the organization provides solid support for member schools, something that is always helpful to the school owner, regardless of organization.

Quality products and services. ICHF DVD's, certifications, merchandise, seminars, and everything that bears our name is of the highest quality.

No politics, no favoritism, no power games, no egos, no cult like environment, and no exploitation.

Again, I do realize that this is a marketing brochure, so I am treating it as such. If his organization really does everything that he claims it does, then he has a pretty strong case from an organizational and administrative standpoint. He addresses many of the common frustrations and needs that I see voiced by many both here and on other boards: lengthy waits for certifications (though that is often due to school owner shenanigans rather than organizational issues), unreasonable fees, recognition of certifications by an international organization (One of the Kukkiwon's touted benefits), and getting rid of political nonsense.

Regarding ICHF's products and services, I have no products and do not know anyone else who does. However, I have received first hand feedback on his seminars and they are universally praised, so I will give him the benefit of the doubt on product.

The next part discusses CHKD itself and its differences to 'traditional hapkido,' Which is really germane to the topic. That will be for my next post. I did want to post about 'advantages and benefits' because one of the main points of criticism is that he slams other orgs or systems. He definitely is promoting his system and org, no question. But I do not feel that, based on my own research, that he does so either at the expense of other orgs, which are highly entrenched anyway, or other systems.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The following is what he says regarding his system as compared with traditional systems.

The differences between traditional hapkido and combat hapkido
Combat hapkido, the modern style of hapkido developed by Grandmaster Pelligrini is the result of over 40 years of martial arts / self defense study, research, application, and synthesis. It differs from other hapkido styles in several technical areas. Following are some examples:
Combat hapkido is 100% self defense. There are no forms (kata / hyungs) in the system.

Kind of misleading. Hapkido does not, in general have them either, not in the sense that I think he is referring to, which is solo practice of forms as seen in karate and taekwondo.

All combat hapkido kicks are directed to the lower part of the body. We do not teach acrobatic / flying kicks.

Nothing progressive about that. I frankly see that as more traditional.

Combat hapkido employs break-falls and throws in a very limited and safe manner.

In other words, no acrobatic break-falls and mostly standing grappling. Again, no issues here.

Combat hapkido employs no hard blocks or static stances.

As a general rule, neither does any other hapkido. Sounds traditional to me.

Combat hapkido does not teach "traditional weapons." We teach modern self defense skills.

Okay, so his program does not have kobuto. No problem here. I do understand that CHKD has some pretty wicked cane techniques though.

Combat hapkido contains a street proven component of firearm disarming techniques.

I would like clarification on what he means by 'street proven.' Sounds great, particularly in Blackbeltmag, but I would like to know how he defines the term.

Combat hapkido, because it is flexible, dynamic, and eclectic, continues to evolve.

Sounds very JKD in approach.

Combat hapkido is not a sport and cannot be modified nor regulated to be one. There are no competitions, tournaments, or championships.

Well, I know that at least one large org (the IHF) does have tournaments of some kind (one of my instructors just attended one in Michigan), so what he says is not misrepresenting traditional HKD, though I think that this is the exception rather than the rule.

No sport or competition. Sounds traditional to me.

Breaking boards or any other object is not required nor desirable in combat hapkido.

Nothing wrong here either. I think that most of us who have been around know that board breaking and such is primarily an exhibition tool to impress onlookers anyway.

The remainder of the packet discusses products, membership, has an FAQ and a membership form.

Overall, I see nothing overly progressive here aside from distance learning / testing and marketing jargon. He hits all the right buzzwords to promote his system and does his best to look the part. I really cannot fault him on any of that: the man knows how to promote his product. As previously stated, I have my own reservations regarding distance learning as it applies to beginning or novice hapkido students, but that is outside of the scope of this thread.

My estimation of his system, based on what I have read and seen, is that he advocates a back to basics and a no frills approach. Frankly, I like that and don't see why anyone else has a problem with it.

Daniel

 

[Drac]

Okay, so his program does not have kobuto. No problem here. I do understand that CHKD has some pretty wicked cane techniques though.

Grandmaster Mark Shuey Sr of Cane Master is a regular at many of the CHKD seminars and teaches that portion of it..I was the Uke for a couple of techniques, wicked is an understatement..GMP is no slouch with a cane himself..

I would like clarification on what he means by 'street proven.' Sounds great, particularly in Blackbeltmag, but I would like to know how he defines the term.

I know a few officers that have used these techniques while on the job..Its the self defense portion that I have personally used while on duty and they work..

My estimation of his system, based on what I have read and seen, is that he advocates a back to basics and a no frills approach. Frankly, I like that and don't see why anyone else has a problem with it.

There in lies the mystery..I have seen changes to techniques since I first was introduced to GMP and the ICHF in 2003..As GMP says " We evolve with the changing times"..

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Grandmaster Mark Shuey Sr of Cane Master is a regular at many of the CHKD seminars and teaches that portion of it..I was the Uke for a couple of techniques, wicked is an understatement..GMP is no slouch with a cane himself..

My interest is piqued.

I know a few officers that have used these techniques while on the job..Its the self defense portion that I have personally used while on duty and they work..

So I assume that he is using feedback from LEO and maybe military personnel? If that is the case, that seems reasonable.

There in lies the mystery..I have seen changes to techniques since I first was introduced to GMP and the ICHF in 2003..As GMP says " We evolve with the changing times"..

Well, I would think that a system would evolve. The landscape of self defense has been considerably altered in the past twenty five years. The weapons that one can expect to face really haven't, but there has been a shift in where one might expect to have an armed encounter.

Also, much of the 'rough housing' that used to occur between kids that used to give them some kind of basis in unarmed fighting has been virtually eliminated by our super-nanny school systems. The influx of gangs and the ages at which one can expect to have to deal with them has also shifted.

That said, a no frills system that keeps up with the times is a good thing indeed.

Daniel

 

[Drac]

My interest is piqued.

GM Shuey Sr puts on a hell of a good seminar..He has the speed and flexibility that would shame a 20 year old..I own 3 of his cane and his DVD's..GMP also has a DVD of his cane techniques that is well done

So I assume that he is using feedback from LEO and maybe military personnel? If that is the case, that seems reasonable.

Yes, he has had a few as advisors..

Well, I would think that a system would evolve. The landscape of self defense has been considerably altered in the past twenty five years. The weapons that one can expect to face really haven't, but there has been a shift in where one might expect to have an armed encounter.

One would think..

Also, much of the 'rough housing' that used to occur between kids that used to give them some kind of basis in unarmed fighting has been virtually eliminated by our super-nanny school systems. The influx of gangs and the ages at which one can expect to have to deal with them has also shifted.

Dont get me started on the organized ignorance that is laughingly called the Board-of-Education..Yes, the gang member get younger and younger every year, and their capacity for violence also seems to increase.

That said, a no frills system that keeps up with the times is a good thing indeed.

Amen

 

[Drac]

My attitude has always been that if you dont like the Grandmaster or the discipline, DONT STUDY IT !! No one should give a rats butt WHAT the system is called, if it suits your needs then train. Finally show some class and keep the name calling in the elementary school yard where it belongs..

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

My attitude has always been that if you dont like the Grandmaster or the discipline, DONT STUDY IT !! No one should give a rats butt WHAT the system is called, if it suits your needs then train. Finally show some class and keep the name calling in the elementary school yard where it belongs..

Amen to that!

Regarding the part highlighted in blue, I wonder how many people would take issue if he referred to it specifically as Jeon-tu kwan.

Daniel