Freestyle Forms - what's up with that?

[bignick]

But open ones do all those too.

i've said on this thread more than once that doing an acrobatic open form takes physical skill...i never tried to say anyone can do some of those things...

if you think traditional ones have something that open ones don't, then please share

i believe i covered my view on open vs. traditional in my first post in this thread

The point that seems to be missed is that all traditional poomse/kata have applications and meaning behind them...there's a reason for every single movement no matter how esoteric it may seem...the open forms i've seen all just string together as many kicks, punches, and acrobatics as fast as they can...there is no meaning or thought behind the movement...if you went up to a person that just finished doing a creative form and asked them, "Right after you threw that right crescent kick, you did a backflip followed by a cartwheel, what were your attackers doing that you were avoiding", you'd most likely get a blank stare...

as for how an external viewer can spot the difference between someone going through the motions and one who has some understanding of the movements...i must admit i'm at a loss for a way to describe this with words...but it's can be seen...take a physically gifted beginner student going through the motions of his kata...he'll be performing it "right" but there is "something" missing compared to someone who understands whats going inside the kata...

 

[deadhand31]

Well, I kind of have two schools of thought on this issue, each side has its pros and cons.

The freestyle forms are fun to watch. I can appreciate them for their skill and showmanship. In order to do them well, it takes a great degree of skill and hard work. That is something that I feel should not be downplayed.Now, anyone who has ever watched rythmic gymnastics can probably agree that it's an art form. Hence, it is a certain flavor of martial arts. However, sport karate is just that: karate that is practiced for sport. Learning to kick to the surface will make it harder to defend yourself if you ever have to kick hard to defend yourself. Doing a bunch of flips in a real fight will no doubt cause you to have your @55 handed to you on a silver platter. I'm pretty sure that many sport karate practitioners will concede to this, if only after it results in getting their butts kicked.

Traditional forms do have alot more purpose. Each movement is simulating SOMETHING. Now, it's our responsibility to make sure we have full understanding of each movement. Sure, the general public may not view them as fun to watch, but for those who practice them, they are invaluable tools. I, for one, can also say that I would never fight using a back stance or front stance, but understanding the movements themselves can be a great benefit.

Personally, I think traditional and freestyle forms should be in separate categories. That way, freestyle judges can more adequately judge their cup of tea, and the traditionalists can judge their time-honored forms. Just my thought on it.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I went to a large belt test for a TKD Assoc. and one instructor got up and talked about competing in the open forms division. I think it was on coaching his students for the open forms division. Anyway he said that now to compete competively in the BB freestyle forms division his students had to have a gymnastics coach in addition to his instruction in the MA. This was about 6/7 years ago if I remember right. Personally if the students are having to spend their training time going to a gymnastics coach (or someone like that) than it's taking away from the MA training time.

Maybe things have changed since then.

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

Here is another question:

1) Should Traditional forms be used in competition?

2) I mean if they are designed to be a realistic training aid doesn't turning them into a performance piece for judges and spectators kind of degrade them?

Kind of like having boxers compete in shadow boxing or skipping?

3) An open form with all the flips and fancy kicks is designed specifically to impress judges and spectators, I'd say it has more merit as a competitive routine then a traditional kata...

I added numbers to your post to address them.

1) Why not? Keep them in their own division.

2) I don't think that demonstrating your skill in kata is wrong nor degrading. what is degradiing is people who will shaft tradtional sylists who perform their level katas for lower ranked katas that might have more kicks or open style forms.

I went to a open tournament once and saw 3rd and 4th dan BBs doing brown belt forms (turns out they didn't know any higher ranked katas, but that's another problem), and some Gojo ryu stylists doing thier BB forms (excellent form) but not with as many kicks as the TKD katas.

I went to another Open tournament and saw a young martial artist do a kama kata with all of the back flips, splits and kicks and such. But the kid didn't know how to use the kamas, if they had been sharp it would have been a different story (blood everywhere). However if a traditional kata would have been performed along side of him than they probably would have lost even though in real life the techniques would work.

3) Why is this? I once saw a guy get out in a camo looking get up, basically finger twirl his katana (no joke) as he moved around and around the judging ring, this was after he broke a brick over his head trying to impress the judges. This took skill not to drop it but had no martial value at all.

And if it's just martial value that should be the judge than the most effective kata I've seen is one in which the BB did a double nunchaku kata and mid way through it he dropped one (it looked as if it was an accident), so he continued on till he droppped the 2nd pair (again it looked as if it was an accident). Then he reached into his gi and pulled out a gun (one of those realistic lookiing little six shooter cap guns) and pointed it at each corner judge as he pulled the trigger. You should have seen the people scatter trying to get out of the way of the gun. Now that was an effective kata, it looked real . After the judges picked themselves up off of the floor they didn't think it was real funny or good form though.

Both of these events took place in the real early 80's. One at the Dallas Karate Championships and the other at the Ft. Worth ProAm.

Mark

Mark

 

[Marginal]

Forms competition is nothing more then a dance.

Some people realise this and take advantage of it.

others try to deny it and stay "traditional" and say those that do are wrong and not "real" martial artists.

If they're dismissing kata as nothing more than a dance, then they don't understand what the goals behind Kata are. If they don't understand that, no matter what they do, it's not going to be useful to their training.

 

[bignick]

others try to deny it and stay "traditional" and say those that do are wrong and not "real" martial artists.

i didn't ever say they weren't real martial artists...but creative forms/kata as i've seen them are not real martial arts

 

[Drag'n]

It seems that the main argument against freestyle forms is that they aren't applicable to combat and therefore worthless.
My reply would be that ALL forms have little to do with actual combat.But I dont think that makes them worthless. Have you ever seen anybody fight full contact using traditional blocks, stances and punches like those taught in traditional forms? I haven't.
That dosen't mean all forms are a waste of time though.They are a great method for teaching focus, ballance ,body awareness,speed,technique,stamina etc.But unless you practice these things against resisting opponents they will do very little to improve your ability to fight. So if your only purpose in your training is to learn how to hurt people, why do forms at all?
I have trained in traditional(Tae kwon do,shaolin KF) and modern forms (wushu) When I was learning the Traditional forms I was taught a whole bunch of applications which would never work in a real fight. I actually got hurt more trying to aply those techniques in sparring.
Plus the forms were not particularly exciting to perform or watch.
Then when I trained in wushu they taught very little application.They know what they are doing is a performance art.They are not interested in fighting. In fact in China you chose between learning performance martial arts(forms) or combat arts(full contact KF) Not many people train in both,
because they are so irrellivant to each other and require different personalities and abilities.
That didnt make the training in wushu any easier.In some ways it was alot harder.I was pushed to the limits of my ability and I gained a high degree of skill.I suppose I could have just done gymnastics.But I dont like gymnastics.I like punching and kicking and using weapons as well as extreamly difficult aerials.
Jacky Chan and Jet Li both trained extensively in performance form oriented martial arts ,and few people would argue with the fact that they are exceptional martial artists.
So I dont see a problem with freestyle forms.So long as the people doing them understand that what they are doing is not learning how to fight.They are a challenging and exciting martial art.
However I do have a problem with hard core traditionalists who persist in their arguement that forms teach you how to fight.Its rediculous attidudes like this that have turned so many people away from traditional arts and values. Which is a shame because there is alot of value in the traditional arts besides just fighting.

 

[Marginal]

So I dont see a problem with freestyle forms.So long as the people doing them understand that what they are doing is not learning how to fight.They are a challenging and exciting martial art.

Then it's not a MA. It's a PA.