Freestyle Forms - what's up with that?

[WLMantisKid]

Open forms competitions are MADE for impressing people... what else are they there for? Exactly.

 

[DeLamar.J]

I’ve just changed schools – at my old school students rarely competed in open tournaments, so we only practiced the forms taught under our system.

A few students at my new school are preparing for an open tournament and are working on their freestyle forms. What I see is a whole bunch of very dynamic moves focusing on explosive speed, high spinning kicks and acrobatics but very little focus on targeting or attention to solid technique and stances. These guys are doing some impressive acrobatics including handsprings and backflips, but…. I’m not seeing solid fundamentals (and these guys generally have strong fundamentals in their regular forms).

So what is up with freestyle forms for tournaments? I know it is a wide open question.

I have seen this many times, and I always ask myself the same question, am I at a gymnastics floor exercise, or am I here to see kata? All those flips and dudads have no place in MA.

 

[WLMantisKid]

I have seen this many times, and I always ask myself the same question, am I at a gymnastics floor exercise, or am I here to see kata? All those flips and dudads have no place in MA.

What are you watching a form for, bub?

If you want technique, watch a fight. Forms competitions are made to be flashy.

 

[Insedia_Cantharis]

Alright, Recap. Everyone agree's that these thing's are meant to be flashy, right?

Everyone agree's that the people who do these things enjoy it, right?

So, if everyone agrees with all of these points, then there should not be an argument here. The question was not "Should these people be considered Martial Artists?", or "Is this a martial art?"

The question is, "What is up with freestyl forms in competition?"
People who do them like it.
They are meant to be the way they are.

If we're picking feathers here, A karateka could just as well say MMA isn't a martial art, or Tai Chi, or Aikido, the point is, none of these things are true, but who are we to judge? The St. Peters of Martial arts? Do these things make it or not?

Really.

 

[bignick]

Fist off, I dislike open/creative forms in all it's various guises. I practice tae kwon do, which is often derided for being non-traditional and flashy...but at our tournaments, which follow WTF rules...the only forms allowed for competion are the traditional Palgwe/Koryo-Kumkang, etc forms...preferably the one for your current rank, but the directly preceeding that will be allowed if you just earned your rank and don't know your new form. The point that seems to be missed is that all traditional poomse/kata have applications and meaning behind them...there's a reason for every single movement no matter how esoteric it may seem...the open forms i've seen all just string together as many kicks, punches, and acrobatics as fast as they can...there is no meaning or thought behind the movement...if you went up to a person that just finished doing a creative form and asked them, "Right after you threw that right crescent kick, you did a backflip followed by a cartwheel, what were your attackers doing that you were avoiding", you'd most likely get a blank stare...which defeats the entire purpose for studying forms/pattern/hyung/poomse/kata, whatever you want to call them...in the first place...

 

[WLMantisKid]

*sighs*

Some people will never learn.

 

[DeLamar.J]

:rtfm:

Fist off, I dislike open/creative forms in all it's various guises. I practice tae kwon do, which is often derided for being non-traditional and flashy...but at our tournaments, which follow WTF rules...the only forms allowed for competion are the traditional Palgwe/Koryo-Kumkang, etc forms...preferably the one for your current rank, but the directly preceeding that will be allowed if you just earned your rank and don't know your new form. The point that seems to be missed is that all traditional poomse/kata have applications and meaning behind them...there's a reason for every single movement no matter how esoteric it may seem...the open forms i've seen all just string together as many kicks, punches, and acrobatics as fast as they can...there is no meaning or thought behind the movement...if you went up to a person that just finished doing a creative form and asked them, "Right after you threw that right crescent kick, you did a backflip followed by a cartwheel, what were your attackers doing that you were avoiding", you'd most likely get a blank stare...which defeats the entire purpose for studying forms/pattern/hyung/poomse/kata, whatever you want to call them...in the first place...

 

[Phoenix44]

It is what it is, ya know? It's like Olympic ice dance: it's hard, it's athletic, it's beautiful, and I can't do it. Is it a competitive sport? Who knows. And what if there's a French judge?

Have you seen the WEAPONS competitions? Talk about flashy but useless maneuvers.

 

[bignick]

it's hard, it's athletic, it's beautiful, and I can't do it.

LOL...no...i can't do it either...although i've been told i have a pretty solid cartwheel and one handed cartwheel...and it is flashy, and it is athletic...but it goes hand in hand with the old analogy of a blossom floating on a pond...beautiful...but there's no roots...

 

[MichiganTKD]

The whole "creative forms" (read: made up) concept kind of reminds me of ice dancing or figure skating. Fun to watch I will admit. Would I ever want to do it? Uh, no.

 

[Spud]

[font=&quot]Glad to see this old thread resurrected. My thoughts on Katas are that they should demonstrate that you know the fundamental techniques and link them, maintain a solid stance, and can focus your techniques, targeting a realistic distance and location. Also show some demonstration of speed, power and control. At least show a solid enough stance that you’re not going to fall down with a single hand shove or throw a technique that demonstrates the ability to strike with authority.

I have to fight the giggles when I see the kids doing baton twirling with a staff, tossing it up in the air to catch it as they land in splits.
[/font]

 

[drunken mistress]

I changed from Shukokai karate to Freestyle simply because it was the only karate available in my area. I like both though. We do much more sparring in Freestyle. I started late in life so I am not so acrobatic as the juniors. While I enjoyed the traditional side I tend to agree with the current teacher that Freestyle is better for self-defence. He is a very good athlete who fought for England but now lives in Spain. He has also been a bit of a bad boy in terms of being in street fights and knows a lot about what actually works in a situation where you are trying to save your life.

 

[SMP]

I dont believe that competitors have to do set traditional forms. But forms should be realistic. Some of the flips and stuff seem to be pretty far out there. I believe both sides would agree that there are some difficulties comparing hard forms against soft forms unless you have experience or an understanding of both. Do we really need to have another category. - Like it or not its here for awhile - time will tell

 

[Andrew Green]

Here is another question:

Should Traditional forms be used in competition?

I mean if they are designed to be a realistic training aid doesn't turning them into a performance piece for judges and spectators kind of degrade them?

Kind of like having boxers compete in shadow boxing or skipping?

An open form with all the flips and fancy kicks is designed specifically to impress judges and spectators, I'd say it has more merit as a competitive routine then a traditional kata...

 

[bignick]

performing them in a competition doesn't degrade them...and just because you're doing them in front of people doesn't mean they've become "performance pieces". And setting a standard so that all people of the same rank will be performing the same kata just makes it that much more interesting...everybody knows the moves...who can do them the best...with most focus,balance...so forth

 

[Andrew Green]

But shouldn't the value of a kata be in how much can be gotten out of it as a training tool, not how it "standardized" it looks?

I'm sure that any instructor worth his salt could get a high level dancer winning black belt traditional kata pretty quickly, but does this mean they "understand" that kata? No of course not, they are winning because when used this way that is exactly what kata become, a dance routine.

 

[bignick]

maybe they would...and if you let a well trained dancer or gymnast who's had a few months of martial arts training doing an open/creative form...they'd still wipe the floor with most other people...so i think that's just a bad example

 

[Andrew Green]

maybe they would...and if you let a well trained dancer or gymnast who's had a few months of martial arts training doing an open/creative form...they'd still wipe the floor with most other people...so i think that's just a bad example

No, it just proves the point.

Forms competition is nothing more then a dance.

Some people realise this and take advantage of it.

others try to deny it and stay "traditional" and say those that do are wrong and not "real" martial artists.

 

[bignick]

No, it just proves the point.

Forms competition is nothing more then a dance.

yes..open forms are just a dance...and as for a dancer or a gymnast being able to win in a forms competition...that doesn't prove your point about traditional forms competition being a dance....you say in an earlier post

But shouldn't the value of a kata be in how much can be gotten out of it as a training tool

and what are traditional forms trying to teach you...balance?...movement?....footwork?...focus?...

sounds a lot like what gymnasts and dancers train for. the fact that a skilled gymnast or dancer could probably perform a tradional kata very well doesn't mean that they are just "dances"...gymnasts and dancers just happen to train in a lot of overlapping areas of martial artists...and as for the gymnast not understanding the kata...there are a lot of martial artists that don't really know or understand some of the kata they do...well if he or she's got an "instructor worth his salt", as you like to say...then that instructor should be teaching them the meaning of the movements in the kata...if they just phone in the moves for a traditional kata it's not gonna look as good as someone with the same physical ability that is focused and knows what they're doing...

 

[Andrew Green]

and what are traditional forms trying to teach you...balance?...movement?....footwork?...focus?...

That is a whole other discussion.

But open ones do all those too.

So if you think traditional ones have something that open ones don't, then please share. As well as how an external viewer can spot those things.